Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[Ultramecha]

No one will win thier argument. Its the general discussion boards and people will complain about everything. I agree that customization isnt content. I also agree that it would be nice if both cartel coins or credits could be used to change appearance. But if ur a sub people make a valid point. You do get up to 600cc for subbing each month so I dont see it as a major deal. Like everyone agrees on though, if they make ops or fps cartel only we would all quit. Edited April 28, 2013 by Ultramecha

[branmakmuffin]

You do know the meaning of gift right? Lets say I give you a coupon for your birthday and then make a "suggestion" that forces you to use your coupon to do what I like, is it still a gift?

And dont give me the "If you dont like it dont buy it"-line since its built on bs reasoning. Thats the logic that made so many people quit this game, rather than giving feedback and vocally disagreeing and taking on the discussion they just quit.

"Just quitting" is exactly what people should do if they are not happy. If I don't like Cheerios because they change the flavor, I'll try Generi-os. No one ever died from not playing a computer game, or from not eating processed breakfast cereal.

 

Wait... this turned into a freemium MMO now? Huh... I always thought this was a subscriber MMO with F2P as its secondary form of income, they sure make it seem like it. But youre right, F2P is freemium and subscriptions are not far behind with only a few minor advantages

If they are that minor, then surely Preferred is the better deal, right?

 

This game doesnt give incentives to pay a subscription, it gives an incentive to use the CM regardless of whether youre a sub or F2P and how do you figure people wont pay a dime? Can I sell my monthly cartel coin reward back?

Of course the game gives incentives to subscribe, and the 500+/month CC stipend is one of them.

 

And nope they stated quite clearly, even in their own KB, that this is a monthly reward. They can change it for all I care but as it stands is says you get a monthly reward for having a subscription

Whatever BS word they choose to use, it's not a "reward," it's part of the subscription incentive program. If subbing did not include other stuff besides the monthly CC, no one in his right mind would subscribe.

 

No one will win thier argument. Its the general discussion boards and people will complain about everything. I agree that customization isnt content.

And that's where you're wrong. "Content" > "adventuring content."

 

if they make ops or fps cartel only we would all quit.

No, you might quit., but I wouldn't. They know they can't start charging CC for those because they were part of the game pre-F2P. Cathar, haircuts and armor dyeing were not.

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[DmdShiva]

I have no problem with the Barber Shop, just the fact that when I create my next character I'll have to use my CC to unlock a Creation option.

 

...just as you would to make, say, a Chiss Jedi if you hadn't already achieved the level-50 unlock.

[LordArtemis]

My apologies for not reading your post all the way through. I have been venting a bit so I have not been clearly paying attention as closely as I should be to post and acted out without looking ahead. I just wanted this game to succeed and truly believed it had potential to do so, but bad decisions nd poor choices made by EA/bioware have completely ruined it.

 

No apology necessary, and I respect your opinion. You and I may differ on what we feel is best for the game. I believe the most detrimental choices were made prior to release. Those are (my opinion mind you)

 

Lack of basic expected MMO features like a group finder

Lack of casual content

Far too much voiced content (secondary quests)

Lack of customization options

Disappointing space combat system

Forcing a visual armor system based on class

Gimping the mod system

Disappointing crafting system

Forced companion use

Lack of end game content

Misunderstanding of target audience with respect to speed of leveling

Clunky combat mechanics

Full subscription model for an incomplete game and lack of market and working GTN

 

I personally believe that moving to the F2P model and the market is what saved this game. Now, that doesn't mean I don't think they have made mistakes along the way...

 

Failure to merge servers early on

Changing sound effects for certain specials

Removing or altering certain specials (like overload) for the sake of one type of play (PVP) at the detriment of another

Raising the cost of repairs

Removing certain armors from the game, altering others without understanding the impact

Failing to capitalize on the Markets initial release by not including certain expected items

The excessive bugs from earlier patches that seemed rushed

Ignoring some constant requests from the community early on while implementing other changes very few seemed to care about

Stating an update schedule they could never hope to keep

Being downright dishonest about updates, upcoming content, state of the game and the amount of subscribers, etc.

Being insulting toward the community with respect to some desired features ("You remember that part where Han Solo and Chewbacca are in the Millennium Falcon?")

 

I'm sure there are other items I failed to list. I would say they are doing much MUCH better lately. And I think the games population and popularity, reduction in widespread criticism both here and on the web demonstrates that.

 

In the end, if there is any lesson to be learned, I think it could be this, if it was stated in broad terms......

 

We know what we want to play. Listen to us.

We need things to do besides leveling and farming mobs.

Appearance is important to us.

Housing and decoration of the same is important to us.

Our space and ground combat experience is important to us.

We would like to see regular content added to the game and a reduction in bugs over time.

 

But most of all....we want the truth. DO NOT MISLEAD US.

 

Otherwise we will vote...with our feet.

 

And I think that is exactly what players did before the transition.

[WHFlash]

the achievement system does not even work properly in that it does not at time count any of your completions of past or present,

 

Just wanted to hit this one. They told us up front how the Achievement system was going to work, so no surprises there. Not counting past kills (it does count things that have items or titles attached, because there's a marker to look for) is not "bugged," it is the way the game was designed. They also threw us a huge bone by making the accomplishments bound to Legacy rather than for each character, so you don't have to grind for anything. You can accomplish just about all of it with new alts, or with older characters that haven't done the content yet, like the Makeb stuff.

 

If you're going to complain about bugged content, know what's bugged and what's Working As Intended first.

[DarthAcacius]

 

Lack of basic expected MMO features like a group finder We have this now

Lack of casual content Daily quests don't count?

Far too much voiced content (secondary quests) Now your just nit picking

Lack of customization options more than a lot of mmo's give you that's for sure

Disappointing space combat system im going to agree on this one

Forcing a visual armor system based on class irrelevant now with adaptive armor

Gimping the mod system uh, how so? we can pull things out, and put them in other things or swap them out.

Disappointing crafting system still better than some other mmo's out there matey, can't have everything you want

Forced companion use you know there is a dismiss command for those.....

Lack of end game content which will always be coming, lets remember WoW back in the day had **** all as well

Misunderstanding of target audience with respect to speed of leveling target audience was not specifically hardcore mmo players, mainly plot driven game fans, star wars fans, and lets face it, bioware fans

Clunky combat mechanics seems to work just fine with me, i have no issues getting things to work at decent speeds as far as input vs responce, seeing as they borrowed the system from kotor though i can see why there may be some players who think otherwise

Full subscription model for an incomplete game and lack of market and working GTN gtn did and does work, your inability doesn't mean its broken, i've never had a problem searching for items on the gtn or purchase or listing.

 

I personally believe that moving to the F2P model and the market is what saved this game. Now, that doesn't mean I don't think they have made mistakes along the way...

 

Failure to merge servers early on granted

Changing sound effects for certain specials nit picking

Removing or altering certain specials (like overload) for the sake of one type of play (PVP) at the detriment of another no big issue here, its not about a sole mode of play, its also about changing and improving the flow and function of grouped content, adapt and evolve matey

Raising the cost of repairs run your dailies, sell your junk, i've never had a problem with the cost of repairs and i rarely run my dailies or miss out on playing something because of this

Removing certain armors from the game, altering others without understanding the impact **** happens, some came back, others had the original side by side, changes weren't dramatic, nor game breaking, move along

Failing to capitalize on the Markets initial release by not including certain expected items such as? examples mate.

The excessive bugs from earlier patches that seemed rushed not everything is perfect, bugs happen, feel free to volunteer as a code monkey

Ignoring some constant requests from the community early on while implementing other changes very few seemed to care about keep in mind dev teams work on slated projects and a development timeline, nit picking

Stating an update schedule they could never hope to keep not the first company, wont be the last, nit picking

Being downright dishonest about updates, upcoming content, state of the game and the amount of subscribers, etc. source? keep in mind hearsay and conjecture are not evidence without numerical proof

Being insulting toward the community with respect to some desired features ("You remember that part where Han Solo and Chewbacca are in the Millennium Falcon?") they spent a lot of time in the falcon, your going to have to be specific, or make a real argument here

 

I'm sure there are other items I failed to list. I would say they are doing much MUCH better lately. And I think the games population and popularity, reduction in widespread criticism both here and on the web demonstrates that.

 

In the end, if there is any lesson to be learned, I think it could be this, if it was stated in broad terms......

 

We know what we want to play. Listen to us.

We need things to do besides leveling and farming mobs. datacrons, lore, exploration just to name a few.....

Appearance is important to us. next update, adapt, evolve, nit picking again

Housing and decoration of the same is important to us. no need for player housing, its a gimmick anyway, ship customization would be better and easier

Our space and ground combat experience is important to us. ground combat works well, individual ham handedness is irrelevant, space combat does need improving, but you already made this argument before

We would like to see regular content added to the game and a reduction in bugs over time. o....k, we've had two reasonable content updates in 5 months, more than most mmo's on the market these days, hurry up and wait, this is just whinging.

 

But most of all....we want the truth. DO NOT MISLEAD US. you paid for a license, not a stock investment, they will give out info they want, that is thier right and privilege, don't like it, well see your next line

 

Otherwise we will vote...with our feet. don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya

 

And I think that is exactly what players did before the transition.

which transition? which players? remind yourself, most players who are happy are playing, the ones who are not are a vocal MINORITY on the forums.

[DarthZak]

People were going to be angry and rage no matter what they do. I suspect that they've given up even trying to even pretend to give a damn what the perpetually pouty players on these forums think.

 

They could give Cathar away for free to subs and F2Pers alike and within a day, someone would be on these boards complaining about how LONG it took them to get Cathar out.

 

Oh wait, you're already complaining about that, aren't you?

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. So, why should they care if you get pissed? You're still paying them.

 

Well yea it took them damn long to release the Cathar, they made claims they were working on it before launch and it still took them a year since announcing it, my guess is that they knew the game was failing and going F2P and purposefully held it back

 

And Im no longer paying them personally

[DarthZak]

"Just quitting" is exactly what people should do if they are not happy. If I don't like Cheerios because they change the flavor, I'll try Generi-os. No one ever died from not playing a computer game, or from not eating processed breakfast cereal.

Except Im a fan of this game and Id rather try and voice my opinion with many other and hope its heard. Just quitting is what made this game F2P to begin with.

 

 

If they are that minor, then surely Preferred is the better deal, right?

Nah, best deal for me is to switch to another MMO that doesnt treat their subscribers like 2nd class material

 

 

Of course the game gives incentives to subscribe, and the 500+/month CC stipend is one of them.

 

 

Whatever BS word they choose to use, it's not a "reward," it's part of the subscription incentive program. If subbing did not include other stuff besides the monthly CC, no one in his right mind would subscribe.

 

Whatever BS word they use is the word they use and they need to abide by it. Its not a stipend, they said so so they have to keep to their word, otherwise it is false advertisement and they should be sued (which they cant since the ToS probably has something in it against it)

And I would still subscribe if they gave all new content for free like youd expect for a sub

 

 

No, you might quit., but I wouldn't. They know they can't start charging CC for those because they were part of the game pre-F2P. Cathar, haircuts and armor dyeing were not.

 

Cathar = species = there before F2P, they even advertised it before there was any mention of this game going F2P

Recustomizations are a staple in MMO's and have been asked for since beta so to say that is kinda BS.

Every single armor they have in the CM was most likely intended for PvE bar the recoloured ones so to say that just because something was in the game preF2P means it wont be CM exclusive seems like a vain hope.

[LordArtemis]

which transition? which players? remind yourself, most players who are happy are playing, the ones who are not are a vocal MINORITY on the forums.

 

LOL

 

Way to completely miss the point of my post. I listed what hurt the game WHEN IT LAUNCHED, the mistakes they have made in the past, and pointed out they have corrected almost all of them recently.

 

First part was the MOST COMMON COMPLAINTS AT LAUNCH.

 

Second part was the MOST COMMON COMPLAINTS SINCE LAUNCH UP UNTIL RECENTLY.

 

Last part was a general list of probably "things to do" when designing a game and interacting with your community.

 

Why in the world would you respond to each point as you have? They may be argumentative but they do appear to have had an effect...this game lost a MASSIVE amount of players, period. There was no need to respond to almost each item in a dismissive manner as if you needed to defend the game.

 

It's no longer speculation. The game tanked and F2P/Market saved it. It happened. Come to grips with that absolute fact and things will be better. Simple as that.

 

Oh, and by the way...had Bioware followed the "door" mantra you offered the game would be gone I'd bet. Simple fact, again, is that they did the exact opposite. They listened to the "vocal minority" as you put it I would imagine and instituted the changes that saved this game.

 

I for one am very happy they did exactly that.

Edited April 28, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Soluss]

LOL

 

Way to completely miss the point of my post. I listed what hurt the game WHEN IT LAUNCHED, the mistakes they have made in the past, and pointed out they have corrected almost all of them recently.

 

First part was the MOST COMMON COMPLAINTS AT LAUNCH.

 

Second part was the MOST COMMON COMPLAINTS SINCE LAUNCH UP UNTIL RECENTLY.

 

Last part was a general list of probably "things to do" when designing a game and interacting with your community.

 

Why in the world would you respond to each point as you have? They may be argumentative but they do appear to have had an effect...this game lost a MASSIVE amount of players, period. There was no need to respond to almost each item in a dismissive manner as if you needed to defend the game.

 

It's no longer speculation. The game tanked and F2P/Market saved it. It happened. Come to grips with that absolute fact and things will be better. Simple as that.

 

Oh, and by the way...had Bioware followed the "door" mantra you offered the game would be gone I'd bet. Simple fact, again, is that they did the exact opposite. They listened to the "vocal minority" as you put it I would imagine and instituted the changes that saved this game.

 

I for one am very happy they did exactly that.

 

Because some posters feel the need to defend this game to the death. They do so much that they dont bother to read the context of the post but rather skim the wording. One bad word and its game on ToR defenders to the rescue. I never see the logic in ToR defense like some posters go out of their way to do. It makes no sense to defend like that against someone who is just posting their opinion. People are entitled to feel what they feel.

[hippiechick]

I fail to see the issue there.. You could once by bank tabs with credits.. Now you can buy them with CC.. What is the difference??

 

There are a ton of things that you could once buy with credits that you can now buy with CC.. So they want to put the Cathar on the CM.. So what?? What difference does it make?? It isn't false advertisement...

 

You need to explain why a subscriber is entitled to a species for free, when we never were able to get one for free before.. You either had to buy the unlock or level to 50.. In either case it wasn't free..

 

Because it is an option to do it either way. Unless I am reading it wrong (havent read the notes yet nor the thread beyond your post) the OP is saying that these things will ONLY be available on the CM. My 2cents? If they are only available on the CM I have real issues with it, real bad ones. But if it is an option to buy in game OR at the CM then Im fine with it.

 

M

[hippiechick]

Wow ok so I started to read beyond the post I just responded to and wow, really people. You have all become such brown nosers I dont think you even see it. Im with the OP. As a subscriber we should NEVER have to buy a new race or class, not even with our monthly allotment, NEVER.

 

Im sorry but I am really shocked at the amount of support there is for a "cartel market exclusive" race. You have all become mindless droids. Fitting suppose for SWTOR but still, it makes me sad to see.

 

M

[kodrac]

Wow ok so I started to read beyond the post I just responded to and wow, really people. You have all become such brown nosers I dont think you even see it. Im with the OP. As a subscriber we should NEVER have to buy a new race or class, not even with our monthly allotment, NEVER.

 

Im sorry but I am really shocked at the amount of support there is for a "cartel market exclusive" race. You have all become mindless droids. Fitting suppose for SWTOR but still, it makes me sad to see.

 

M

 

I don't give a **** one way or the other how they offer it. But I hate it when some idealist like the OP gets on a high horse and tries to speak for me with we this and we that. The OP can speak of his disappointment in how it's offered and his unwillingness to get the new race, but he doesn't speak for me

 

Oh, and I'm not a mindless droid either, thank you. I have a rational mind of my own and I see the rationality in how BioWare is offering the new race. It's not false advertising at all. There's no need to call people mindless just because they have a different view than you.

Edited April 28, 2013 by kodrac

[Dyvid]

Well it's true... from a certain point of view.

 

They give you 500 CC every month so you could technical use that to buy your custom for free.

[Soluss]

I don't give a **** one way or the other how they offer it. But I hate it when some idealist like the OP gets on a high horse and tries to speak for me with we this and we that. The OP can speak of his disappointment in how it's offered and his unwillingness to get the new race, but he doesn't speak for me

 

Oh, and I'm not a mindless droid either, thank you. I have a rational mind of my own and I see the rationality in how BioWare is offering the new race. It's not false advertising at all. There's no need to call people mindless just because they have a different view than you.

 

"We" doesnt necessarily mean you. "We" means the OP and others that agree with the OP. I dont understand people that get irate over a simple word that doesnt necessarily include you.

[Soluss]

Well it's true... from a certain point of view.

 

They give you 500 CC every month so you could technical use that to buy your custom for free.

 

Its not free.

[Andryah]

Because it is an option to do it either way. Unless I am reading it wrong (havent read the notes yet nor the thread beyond your post) the OP is saying that these things will ONLY be available on the CM. My 2cents? If they are only available on the CM I have real issues with it, real bad ones. But if it is an option to buy in game OR at the CM then Im fine with it.

 

M

 

Just about anything for sale in the CM can be resold by players on the GTN. The currrent racial unlocks are, for example. There are even players in game who will custom buy CM items for players and then private sell them to them in game.

 

Best to just wait until 2.1 goes live before losing a gasket over it IMO.

[Andryah]

Its not free.

 

Baseline demand: People want stuff FREE WITH SUB. Meaning they do not want to pay extra real $$ to get it.

 

Bioware solution in a Freemium business model where subs and freebs coexist in game: You get a coin allowance every month, at no extra charge to your subscription. Sensible players save coins for future content on the CM. You can then buy said items of controversy using these coins.... again at no extra charge to your subscription.

 

It's free

 

Now... if Bioware gives you 500 coins per month but puts 1000 coins worth of new non-fluff game content on the CM every month... then you have a gripe. So far, that has not happened... not even with the much wanted Cathar and Character Customization.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Andryah

[zzoorrzz]

Baseline demand: People want stuff FREE WITH SUB. Meaning they do not want to pay extra real $$ to get it.

 

Bioware solution in a Freemium business model where subs and freebs coexist in game: You get a coin allowance every month, at no extra charge to your subscription. You can then buy said items of controversy using these coins.... again at no extra charge to your subscription.

 

It's free.

 

You get cc as a gift for being a subscriber, not as something you get in change for your subscribtion dollars. cc are free, not the things you buy with them, those cost you cc.

[Andryah]

You get cc as a gift for being a subscriber, not as something you get in change for your subscribtion dollars. cc are free, not the things you buy with them, those cost you cc.

 

It's not a gift. It's an incentive to subscribe and rewards you accordingly for doing so. It follows the industry standard model in the MMO market in Freemium games and it is done to mitigate subscribers feeling like they have to buy shop currency to stay current in the MMO.

 

The big lump of free coins you got in November for all those months you subbed prior to F2P going live... THAT was a gift.

 

You earn rewards, gifts are given. Learn to tell the difference IMO.

[IAAIAO]

Wow ok so I started to read beyond the post I just responded to and wow, really people. You have all become such brown nosers I dont think you even see it. Im with the OP. As a subscriber we should NEVER have to buy a new race or class, not even with our monthly allotment, NEVER.

 

Im sorry but I am really shocked at the amount of support there is for a "cartel market exclusive" race. You have all become mindless droids. Fitting suppose for SWTOR but still, it makes me sad to see.

 

M

 

Totally agree, people are weird nowadays loving being fisted.

[branmakmuffin]

Except Im a fan of this game and Id rather try and voice my opinion with many other and hope its heard. Just quitting is what made this game F2P to begin with.

I'm a fan of the game, too, or I would not be subbing.

 

Nah, best deal for me is to switch to another MMO that doesnt treat their subscribers like 2nd class material

Go read the forums of any formerly purely sub-based and now sub/F2P-based MMO. You will read comments exactly like the one you just made. IOW, there's no such thing as a sub/F2P-based MMO which "doesnt treat their subscribers like 2nd class material."

 

And I would still subscribe if they gave all new content for free like youd expect for a sub

MMOs do not generally provide every update and expansion for no added charge. DDO was one exception and made that a marketing issue. So I don't know what MMO fantasyland you play in in your dreams, but that's the only place it exists.

 

Cathar = species = there before F2P, they even advertised it before there was any mention of this game going F2P

Really? You could play as a Cathar before F2P? How come no one ever made one?

 

Recustomizations are a staple in MMO's and have been asked for since beta so to say that is kinda BS.

No matter what it is, there's someone who thinks every feature is a "staple" of MMOs. When Turbine introduced an experience halter in LotRO, people complained "Halting your character's experience is a basic feature of MMOs!" The point is armor dyeing was not available in TOR pre-F2P. If you think subbing it a rip-off, the solution is right in front of you.

[zzoorrzz]

It's not a gift. It's an incentive to subscribe and rewards you accordingly for doing so. It follows the industry standard model in the MMO market in Freemium games and it is done to mitigate subscribers feeling like they have to buy shop currency to stay current in the MMO.

 

The big lump of free coins you got in November for all those months you subbed prior to F2P going live... THAT was a gift.

 

You earn rewards, gifts are given. Learn to tell the difference IMO.

 

Whatever it is, it still doesn't matter. As I said. CC are free, not the thing you buy with them later.

[branmakmuffin]

Whatever it is, it still doesn't matter. As I said. CC are free, not the thing you buy with them later.

You need to learn the difference between "free" and "for no additional charge." As I said elsewhere, unless you pay $0 for your sub, the included CC are not free.

 

The fact that longer your sub period, the larger your CC stipend is proof enough that the CC are a subscription inventive, not a gift. As others have noted, a gift is "Here's something for you. I expect nothing in return for it." So even the 100 CC per month for using the free sec key phone app are not a gift, because you have to do something to get them.

[Lord_Karsk]

You do know, Star Trek: Online is one the WORST MMO's available. I am a massive Trekkie and I have always loved Star Trek but I will not support the blatent RAPE that Cryptic have done to the franchise in order to gather funds and do as little work as possible. Here is my breakdown, as an STO player of 3 years.

 

STO

 

- Blatent P2W Ships Outclassing Free/Previously Paid Vessels on the Zen Store. (I.E. The Recluse Carrier replacing the Atrox) to encourage people to pay for lockbox keys.

- No significant development of PVP since launch or rebalance (DPS is king and so is the Jem Hadar Bug Ship (Also a lockbox P2W ship)

- Complete bias towards tactical ships such as the Defiant. Science and Engineering HEAVILY outclassed by Tactical and their insane DPS boost. Science only useful for Sub-Nuc (only debuff ability in the game) and thats it. Engineers defunct.

- Upcoming Romulan Faction was a blantent lie where you play non-imperial Romulan who are a bunch of colonists.

- Ignoring the Star Trek fanbase by refusing to buff ships such as the Galaxy Class, an iconic ship which has been ruined by the this game. The upcoming D'Deridex has also been designed to be purposely weak because its a cruiser.

- Refusing to fix bugs since launch because "fixing bugs does not generate profit and greed is eternal"

- HUGE dilthium costs for little gain in Starbases, basically shafting small fleets in favour of larger ones.

- Dilthium cap of 8k PER DAY - Meaning that you can get nothing useful.

- Reputation system and a total of 4 STF's (Which have been split into ground and space, used to be just one and have a story but have now turned into a heartless grind) whereas ToR has many more Flashpoints.

- Grind, Grind, Grind...

 

True THAT for Advertisement vs Truth... You think Bioware is bad!? You have no idea mate.

 

Yeah i have a lufetime in STO but i stoped playing after the pay to winn got really bad

and the blatant cach grab was to obvious.And the cartel store here is going down same way.

I have used alot of cash in cartel store but i will walk away if bioware dont stop beeing so greedy.

I mean if they actually put armors in the game that was new that would be something , but most of

it is re color gear that have been in game since way before launch.So the game is just in maintenance mode

cashing in while they can. Makeb and these things were made a long timr ago while they still had founding.

Anyone here actually think we will see new planets lol