Seriously, why should people study...

[Damask_Rose]

It's threads like this and half the responses in it that make group content stressful and no fun. Perhaps because I didn't start out with EQ1 and move on WoW, I find this focus on memorizing content and expecting perfection from pugs to be alien.

[CommanderKeeva]

^This.

 

I don't want to watch a FP being ran, I want to run it.

 

What? Something happens, people die, expensive repair bill? Then go run some simple things and get the creds back.

 

To the OP, a lot of mmo gamers are just whiney little brats that can't handle losing because they were told everyone was special, and they think they're unique little snowflakes. A word to them, snowflakes aren't unique

 

Contrary to what people seem to propagate in this thread, knowledge of the individual tactics for boss fights is not expected in PuG flashpoints and operations. What IS expected, however, is that you speak up if you don't know what to do and ask for an explanation from group members who have done it. A simple "Hey guys, first time for me, can you please tell me what to do?" is all that's needed to solve the issue. Me and 99% of the people I've done flashpoints and ops with were always more than happy to explain the strategy to new people if they spoke up in advance.

 

What is NOT tolerated (even in a PuG group and definitely not in a guild group) is that you don't listen to advice, refuse to follow the group strategy and run around like a headless chicken trying come up with new ways to beat the encounter. A misplaced circle or a person moving at the wrong time can cause the entire group to die and ramp up exorbitant repair bills. Doing so is a sure way to a vote-to-kick and being placed on ignore.

Edited April 21, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[SentinelDranoel]

This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon if they die once.

 

Dang, I wrote this at 1 am in the morning a few nights ago before I went to bed. I did not even proofread it. and I did not know I was going to invoke a response from so many people. I stand by what I said though. I could name a few old school multiple games right now that no one is going to run through without dying multiple times. Arcades were designed for you to fail and I notice some of the old school MMO players saying the same thing about that genre.

 

I look through the forums and I feel that the biggest complaints are about the players and not the difficulty of the game. Someone makes a mistake and people lose their freaking mind and I do not get that. If your team dies, shut up, respawn and play harder. Sorry if I will never look up the gameplay of a battle in a game just like I do not look at the endings of movies before I see them and the same things goes for books too. I have been beating video games for over 20 years; there is fun in figuring out the game and succeeding.

 

My generalization of an entire generation may be wrong but I said that because this is not the only game I have played where I notice this. I really feel with internet videos, instant online guides and save points today's games are easier. I think the real question is not whether someone should study a guide for this game but do some people even bother trying play this game without a guide?

[Warrgames]

This and every thread like it boils down to 1 thing and 1 thing only.

 

PLAY MY WAY AND ONLY MY WAY.

 

There is no right or wrong way. If someone in group doesn't fit the way the group wants to do it kick them. When you find like mind players add them to your friends list.

 

I'm going to play the way I enjoy. Don't like it? Put on ignore because your going on mine so I don't group with you again.

[MoobooMagoo]

I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but here is my response to the OP.

 

I agree insofar as I think people should be nice to each other. If someone asks me how to beat a boss I will help them if I know how.

 

That said, I see no difference between getting help from others in game and looking up information online except that doing so in game wastes people's time. I'm all for helping out and everything, but it is a lot easier for everyone involved to just look it up.

[Raansu]

If you are kicking people out of lowbie/storymode flashpoints because they are new to the content then you should be ashamed. I can somewhat understand that line of thought for hard mode flashpoints because at max level it's assumed that most everyone has seen/done the content already, but in storymode? How pathetic.

 

Get over yourself, everyone was new to the game at one point. I never have any issues explaining fights to new players when leveling an alt and neither should anyone else. Get it through your thick skull that when leveling alts and running through low level content that a lot of people are going to be new to the game and stop expecting to burn through it like you do at cap and grinding out HM's for comms.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Raansu

[Andryah]

No, it's not. What's normal is for the player to understand the mechanics of a game through trial and error.

 

Machine-Elf, there is NO "normal" in MMOs. Some people like to learn by actual trial and error, some prefer to study before jumping in, and some prefer to go study after having their arses handed to them left and right from an encounter.

 

OP......the core issue here IMO is random_strangers playing in random_PUGs with other random_strangers to complete something and move on. It's not an environment that is friendly to patience or teamwork and doing it the old school way (ie: before every MMO had a full set of cliff notes on the content 6 hours after it went live). In recent years... PUGs have become dominated by impatient content players who just want the encounter done so they can move to the next thing in their list. If you PUG.. you should go in expecting this.....because it's all upside from there. If you want patient, friendly, and supportive grouping to learn an encounter through trial and error... best not to PUG.. best to go with friends or guildmaters IMO.

 

I'm not defending any particular style of play.. I am acknowleding that there ARE different styles/preferences of play. And it is pretty easy to know where they will reside (ie: PUG or friends/guildies). Not everyone plays to your style. So when spamming for a group.. and you don't want the googled mechanics... you might want to indicate that before grouping.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but here is my response to the OP.

 

I agree insofar as I think people should be nice to each other. If someone asks me how to beat a boss I will help them if I know how.

 

That said, I see no difference between getting help from others in game and looking up information online except that doing so in game wastes people's time. I'm all for helping out and everything, but it is a lot easier for everyone involved to just look it up.

 

+1 for logic and pragmatism.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

By this logic, I should be able to go out and get whatever job I want without ample research of said job or the required fields of pre-required work that I need to apply for said job. Alright, off to become CEO of a big name company.

 

Weirdly enough, that's exactly how people become CEO's in business.

 

"I have no idea what I'm doing."

 

-Mark Zuckerberg

Edited April 21, 2013 by Darth_Moonshadow

[spectreclees]

Weirdly enough, that's exactly how people become CEO's in business.

 

"I have no idea what I'm doing."

 

-Mark Zuckerberg

 

Yes and that happens to every single person in this 6 billion people populated planet. It's very rare for that to happen to the average person.

 

This thread is also rather pointless. It's not going to get your cries to Bioware and make them punish people who kick from groups. I will continue to kick people who continuously keep dying to the same thing on fights and wiping us.

 

I will give them ample opportunity to fix it and learn. If they don't, then it's time for someone new.

 

Dismissing that you should never have to research and just be able to play a game is rather silly. As I said you need to study to even be able to learn how to speak or type. If I hand you a bunch of parts and tell you to build me a car with no instructions. Could you do it? No, you'd need to read the instructions. (Let's not jump in here and say but I'm a mechanic!!!! I KNOW HOW TO DO THAT, etc.) Yes, and how did you learn how to do that? Reading and learning in school.

Edited April 22, 2013 by spectreclees

[JimG]

The big problem is in flashpoints and ops. If you don't know what you are doing and die or worse get the group killed, you just cost everyone 10k credits repair bill, EACH DEATH! That's not much but if it can be avoided simply by you reading how to fight a boss before you encounter it, do that! Don't complain when you get booted from group for doing something stupid.

 

Someone can easily type out a few instructions before the boss battle and educate new players. You don't need to watch the thing being 20 times to understand the game mechanics. This isn't rocket science.

[zzoorrzz]

...PUGs have become dominated by impatient content players who just want the encounter done so they can move to the next thing in their list...

 

From my experience until now. I don't think that's true. I think they are just louder on the forums, that's all.

[Lokai]

I've played MMO's since the days of UO and i have very rarely looked up videos online. In fact only times i've done this a grand total of maybe two times, and almost always because the boss gave us issues in game and we wanted to figure it out.

 

This all comes down to people wanting to never wipe, not wanting to fail, and really wanting to progress and nothing else. While that is fine and dandy... not everyone is like that and i know i certainly dont care if my group wipes. Then again my old main tank use to say " if you dont wipe its not a good run" why did he say that? because half of the fun of an encounter is learning it, once you learn the fight its pretty much /farm which is dull as sin...

 

However i am actually going to sort of defend the " you should research it " people here. Why? because its way many progression guilds are run. If you dont want to do that sort of thing then find a casual guild, that raids and join them. Every guild will be run differently, and you have to abide by that guilds rules.

[Aebrynis]

However i am actually going to sort of defend the " you should research it " people here. Why? because its way many progression guilds are run. If you dont want to do that sort of thing then find a casual guild, that raids and join them. Every guild will be run differently, and you have to abide by that guilds rules.

 

I hear what you're saying, and in the strictest terms, you're absolutely correct. The leadership of a progression guild has every right to dictate to the membership exactly how to prepare for a FP/OP, including 'homework' on Youtube or what have you. I doubt any reasonable person would argue with this. Membership in such a guild implies you knew what was expected of you when you joined.

 

The disconnect happens when some of these people switch on Group Finder if they happen to be a body short, and then expect the PUG joiner to cleave to their guild strictures for that FP (or whatever). If it's a HM, then yes, there's a reasonable expectation that people should be familiar with it, but many people throw hissyfits if someone hasn't watched the latest instruction on Youtube prior to a story mode run, and adhere to their way of doing things to the letter. It's at this point in time that these progression guild purists often demonstrate that the thing they need most is a fistful of Valium and maybe a doobie with their morning cup of tea.

[TexasMarine]

This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon as they die once.

 

Love this post.

 

I remember the days where there were no online guides for games. You played through and learned from mistakes and/or went out and spend $20-$30 on a good old fashioned guide book (still have a small library). Personally, I only bought the books after A) beating the game a couple times or B) was stuck somewhere for a week or more and my friends couldn't help (friends/people actually helping others with a game is a lost art). I would hate to see the "Google Elites" reaction if they had to pay for all the strategies they take from the internet like we did with our 100+ page novels back in the day.

 

They also seem to forget who made this game (Bioware) and what they are known for (the stories they tell). They wanna skip 75% of the explore/fight content then space bar through story scenes yet complain there is not enough content. That or they sit and play for 48-72 hrs straight, finishing everything, then whine that content doesn't come out fast enough.

 

Moral here, slow down, savor the game, and learn from experience...not some YouTube video or blog.

[KryloKillian]

Someone can easily type out a few instructions before the boss battle and educate new players. You don't need to watch the thing being 20 times to understand the game mechanics. This isn't rocket science.

 

I don't know. Looking at some of these posts that compare studying up on how to play a video game as the equivalent of going to school to earn a masters, or greater, degree (lawl CEO), I think maybe for these people it IS Rocket Science.

Edited April 22, 2013 by KryloKillian

[Uvirith]

No, it's not. What's normal is for the player to understand the mechanics of a game through trial and error.

Why would he want to "look up" something? What if it's his first time playing and he doesn't want to ruin what little shred of story there is to be found in these Flashpoints? And who are you to dictate his play-style.

 

Now i's my turn to

 

Personal freedom ends where the personal freedom of another begins.

Means, the moment you cripple another players gaming experience your personal freedom of trial and error is gone.

[SystemProcess]

I just don't see a problem here. Join a guild, make some friends, let those friends do that trial-and-error run through whatever content you want. If you get stuck in a group of people who want to rush through the content, then just leave because that group is not for you. Likewise if you want to rush and get stuck with a bunch of people who want to take their time...just leave.

 

Not hard.

[zzoorrzz]

Really it seems laughable to me that anyone can expect people to read guides, watch youtube on anything available via GF before playing it. That's the funny part. The strange part is that I don't meet these people in the game... wonder why if it's normal according to what they say.

[Snapsix]

Learnt all the FPs by doing, as a tank lol....If it was a new one I would say to the group - "my first time here, lemme know any importance mechanics pls"...

 

9 times out of 10 someone would help me through it, now on my dps alt I do the same - if the tank is struggling or says he is new then I point stuff out and warn the group of boss mechanics etc...

 

People not knowing the ins and outs of FPs is fine, most of the community at least on my server seems tolerant and willing to help/coach people even in pugs..

 

What doesn't go down well, at least with me, is people who don't know thier own class mechanics. By the late 20s early 30s people should have done a little research (even if its just ingame reading codex/skills) on the basics of their class and role. Many times I have been stuck with a tank that doesn't know how to hold aggro or use guard, or a healer that isn't heal specced but queued as one anyway, or the dps guy that runs off and pulls on their own.

 

If people should do any research at all it should be on class/role fundamentals not watching videos of FP runs - if you have the basics down and really know your class/role then learning a few FP mechanics is easy - if you don't got the basics and are unwilling to even find out then we have a problem...

[Blimble]

There is nothing wrong with youtube, its peoples attitude towards it and towards others thats towards youtube is the issue. Also due to trollers and ninjas I would admit If I know something I would hesitate in helping someone, especially if they are F2P. True, no 1 is getting paid to teach others things.

[Sharee]

If you go into a flashpoint not knowing what to expect, It's an exciting adventure.

 

If you go into a flashpoint knowing exactly what to do, it's a boring job.

----------------------------------

 

That being said, make sure you are on the same wavelength with the other people in your group. You cannot have a nice adventure with people who expect a boring job.

[danielearley]

This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon as they die once.

 

and you seem to forget that the majority of the people in the group know what they are doing, so don't need to run in blind. I for one check at the beginning of every FP if anyone has not been before, if they haven't I will explain the tactics for each boss..

 

If you are missing excitement of not knowing what to do, please ask in Chat for others who don't know how to Play to group up with, and not inflict us casual gamers, who know how to play with 10 deaths while you learn to play.

 

I've never read the guides I've been taught by others in the FP and OP's, there are plenty of paitent and nice people out there who will explain tactics.

[danielearley]

people that read guides are just lazy and not really gamers....just players. they lack the intelligence and patience to figure out the tricky situations and makes you wonder what would happen in RL if they run into a problem and they don't have a guide to refer to...must suck, huh?

 

part of the fun and excitement is figuring out the mechanics. you have the option of not running the pug with the new guys, you can easily go form your own groups with your guildies and friends.

 

edit - corrected spelling

 

OMG, really how do you cope in RL

 

The majority of people in the world have the common sense to learn from others, figuring out tricky situations involves using knowledge you have learned from others over your life time.

 

When working in a group in RL if one person does not know what to do, it's generally the leader of the groups job to make sure this person has a rudimentary understanding of the Job in hand!

[AnonJoen]

Well I agree with the OP, it shouldn't be common sense that you have to 'study' every FP/OP/WZ before you play it; People should be more sociable and have the patience to explain things to new players.

I doubt any of you wouldn't have liked it if this would have happened to you when you were new, so why not apply this method and learn new(er) player the big lines while in a FP/OP/WZ?

 

Sure, it takes some time, but I think it's worth the effort and improves the game experience for everyone .