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Jarnaktane

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This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon if they die once.

 

You pretty much nailed it, my friend.

 

Give them instant reward, the kids are happy. Let them die once--- -wham- flame wars in the forums!

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people that read guides are just lazy and not really gamers....just players. they lack the intelligence and patience to figure out the tricky situations and makes you wonder what would happen in RL if they run into a problem and they don't have a guide to refer to...must suck, huh?

 

part of the fun and excitement is figuring out the mechanics. you have the option of not running the pug with the new guys, you can easily go form your own groups with your guildies and friends.

 

edit - corrected spelling

 

This, so much.

 

In my early days of gaming, the internet was barely a thing, so you had to either call a hotline or buy the strategy guide. If your friends caught you doing either they would heckle you mercilessly for hours on end. "What, are you too stupid to figure this out on your own?" "No real gamer has to look the strategy up in the book."

 

Even in the early days of MMO's this attitude prevailed. You were worthless if you had to look it up. It was about the time that WoW started to get popular that this changed. The fun of learning was no longer the goal. It was all about the carrot on a stick of gear. Get in, hit the loot piñata, and leave. No muss no fuss. I hate it. and guess what, I'm a real gamer. I learn by doing, you aren't gonna catch me reading no guides, I will how ever ask for tips before starting a fight. And that better be good enough.

 

On top of that if I think your info is wrong I will ignore it, this pissed people off to no extent. I.E. don't tank the twin Droid in the false emperor inside the blue circle, but the blue circle heals me. Don't tank the boss in LI on the edge, but it gives that slow DPS a larger room for error.

 

I like finding these things out on my own, if I just stuck to the guides or listen to what I was told I would never know this, I would just keep doing them the way I was told.

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You pretty much nailed it, my friend.

 

Give them instant reward, the kids are happy. Let them die once--- -wham- flame wars in the forums!

Don't blame the player. Blame the game. The moment multiplayer games became about player's personal progression in an aggressive/passive competitive environment was the moment the reward itself became primary motivation.

 

On-topic.

 

Yes, you should look up general tactics of key encounters, if you respect other player's time. If they do their part and you don't and the group wipes because of that, you've wasted their time.

 

Yes, it is common decency to explain tactics if someone announces that they don't know the instance, and yes it's rude to pull the condescending card. But remember - by asking something that you could have spent 3-5 minutes to look up (can be easily done between loading screens and speeder travels), you've also wasted other people's time.

 

Accept that your system of values is not the only one worth considering, and that it doesn't make you better than others because you take on arbitrary challenges, and you'll go far.

Edited by Helig
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people that read guides are just lazy and not really gamers....just players. they lack the intelligence and patience to figure out the tricky situations and makes you wonder what would happen in RL if they run into a problem and they don't have a guide to refer to...must suck, huh?

 

part of the fun and excitement is figuring out the mechanics. you have the option of not running the pug with the new guys, you can easily go form your own groups with your guildies and friends.

 

edit - corrected spelling

 

^^ This, a thousand times, this!! :)

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Yes, it is common decency to explain tactics if someone announces that they don't know the instance, and yes it's rude to pull the condescending card. But remember - by asking something that you could have spent 3-5 minutes to look up (can be easily done between loading screens and speeder travels), you've also wasted other people's time.

 

The guides I've seen, it's more like 3-5 minutes per boss and I'm still gonna miss half of the information because "take some random shield from some random location and put it somehow in some other random location" doesn't make sense until you actually got in to the situation.

 

As I have already said, I have entered ops without and with learning tactics online before it, and it didn't make any difference. Unless those people wish their time to be wasted by me checking the boss fight online before every boss, so I don't confuse them with each other and remember every trick I've never seen, it doesn't seem to help me at all. They still have to wait before the boss fights or explain them before.

And the only time when I have had any trouble with a first-timer was when this guy announced that "he had watched a video about it". Guy jumped at the wrong boss in KPs second boss (Jarg & Sorno) and didn't change to the right one even though he was constantly told to do so. So, people who can listen > people who have searched online. To me at least.

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people that read guides are just lazy and not really gamers....just players. they lack the intelligence and patience to figure out the tricky situations and makes you wonder what would happen in RL if they run into a problem and they don't have a guide to refer to...must suck, huh?

 

part of the fun and excitement is figuring out the mechanics. you have the option of not running the pug with the new guys, you can easily go form your own groups with your guildies and friends.

 

edit - corrected spelling

 

Oh, lovely. Condescending and wrong. You shouldn't have made that 'You all fail at real life lol lol' jab. Why do you think there are guides on everything these days? How to fix things, build things, cook things etc. etc. Would you rather have someone figure out how to cook a meal well until they get it right or read up on it and prepare a nice meal immediately? Would you rather waste time and money on figuring out how to fix a broken sink or ask someone that knows/read it up? Why do you think Wikipedia is so popular? Knowledge is never a bad thing. Going into a situation prepared is also never a bad thing. Saying that people who are smart enough to realise they know nothing about a topic and wish to change that before inflicting their ignorance on other people are lazy is preposterous.

 

You can argue it takes away the fun for you. Fair enough. I do think you should actually stick to groups with people you know (guild/friends) if you want to figure out everything for yourself, as opposed to the other way around. Someone who doesn't know you is much more likely to grow impatient with you, after all.

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Yes, you should look up general tactics of key encounters, if you respect other player's time. If they do their part and you don't and the group wipes because of that, you've wasted their time.

 

Was always my thought that if you don't have the time for some errors in a FP, you really don't have time for a FP. :p

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Was always my thought that if you don't have the time for some errors in a FP, you really don't have time for a FP. :p

 

Errors or mistakes are fine for most of us, we are human after all.

 

What isn't fine though is expecting a group of others to have patience with someone who is failing over and over, especially if their failure could have been avoided with some basic planning and preparation.

 

Want to run with an 'ignorance is bliss' mentality while you fail your way to learning?

 

Go do it on your own time.

Edited by DawnAskham
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Booting people shouldn't be allowed in storymode Flashpoints.

 

so by that logic i can just enter a story mode and let my char stand there and i'll go get a cold beer why others do all the work and i'll just Need on everything when they pick up

 

can u see at least 1 reason why its allowed now ?

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Few interesting observation about the thread:

 

First Argument: Don't want to ruin the fun of finding out the mechanic, beforehand through reading guide, but expect someone to explain to them the tactics pre-fight.

Inconsistency: Your supposed fun should also be ruined when someone explain to you the mechanics pre-fight.

Analysis: A poor argument to hide one's laziness to read.

There are some differences. You can learn about the boss's mechanics before hand and even get some tips on how to handle certain things, without it being as exact a guide as some Youtube vid.

 

I've seen tanks drag a mob to the other side of the room. When asked why, they explained it was "better", but couldn't explain why! Well, the why was very simple: the boss was positioned like that in the video for whatever reason. The tank from the vid was kicked in that position, or the camera angle was better for the vid, or someone overaggroed and the tank grabbed the boss back in that location, something like that.

 

But the simple fact was, the tank did NOT know what he was doing. He was a monkey copying the positioning from the video and the rotation from some other guide. He performed acceptable, but was NOT a good tank.

 

A good tank can enter the fight, only crudely know the boss's abilities, maybe a few tips on how to counter them or learn them through a few wipes, but he'll see the place and know immediately how he can take advantage of the area with the little knowledge he has. He'll know his rotation because he understands his abilities and their advantages and limitations. THAT is tanking. Mimicing some video is not.

 

So instead of telling someone to youtube it, you can also make a synops: When he starts channelling X, this will happen. Ability Y is followed by effect Z. Boss can/cannot knockback. That is basically all a tank, or any other player has to know. 20 seconds of typing can give more information than a 5 minute youtube video.

 

Second Argument: Not everyone can master the mechanics through reading.

Observation: No one is arguing you should. Reading will increase your understanding no matter what. Many guides are comprehensive and you can't expect op players to explain the level of detail available in guides.

Analysis: A poor strawman argument again to hide one's laziness.

Some details from guides aren't clarified properly.

Other details are unnecessary and only add noise to the information presented.

Some details are accidentaly editted out because they were too similar or looked too boring.

Many details are presented without information regarding the reasoning behind the strategy.

Few guides ever give objective information regarding alternatives. ("You have to do X to deal with Y" but not mentioning that Y is an issue because the tank is a Powertech, while a Juggernaut might not have that issue, or because their raid has one gunslinger, while two gunslingers could handle something differently).

 

So it's basically the same issue. People "master" content by following guides, because they never mastered their class or their role in the first place. Why learn your class or role, when you can simply skip that process and mime a guide to "deal" with the content?

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Don't blame the player. Blame the game. The moment multiplayer games became about player's personal progression in an aggressive/passive competitive environment was the moment the reward itself became primary motivation.

 

Everquest had personal rewards and progression a hell of a lot better than the current state of MMORPG's and you know what, people were a lot more relaxed in that game. Try being in a 60 man raid where one wrong foot from 1 player could wipe the entire raid. I was a main tank for many of these and you know what, even with 60 people dying 5 times, not one person was ever kicked from the raid. This was in a game where you actually could lose levels from dying.

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Errors or mistakes are fine for most of us, we are human after all.

 

What isn't fine though is expecting a group of others to have patience with someone who is failing over and over, especially if their failure could have been avoided with some basic planning and preparation.

 

Want to run with an 'ignorance is bliss' mentality while you fail your way to learning?

 

Go do it on your own time.

 

Any FP I'm on, is on my time. :p

 

I'd say what it comes down to is, if you don't want to put up with a first timer, then don't use the group finder, and get yourself a pre-made.

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I think looking everything up is a bit extreme, but I don't think it's unreasonable to do so for the really hard stuff - AKA Operations.

Basically you've got a whole bunch of other people there with you, and if you mess things up for them by not putting in the little effort to at least research a boss or two, you can easily waste the evening of a whole group of players (some of them who will have very limited time).

I've usually raided with guilds, and they asked everyone to look up the fights before - even providing links on the forums, or on TS before the Op.

That being said, the rare few times that I have done Ops through the group finder, I've seen people being very nice about it and explaining the fights to players who haven't done it yet.

In the end it's not that big of a deal, I've always been of the opinion that seeing the fight and tactics and actually DOING it are still completely different things - and while being prepared helps a lot, you might still make a few mistakes the first time going through it. :p

Edited by Callaron
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Basically you've got a whole bunch of other people there with you, and if you mess things up for them by not putting in the little effort to at least research a boss or two, you can easily waste the evening of a whole group of players (some of them who will have very limited time).

 

Thing is..if you've got limited time you shouldnt run a FP or OP. 'Cause Murphies Law will always come into play, especially when you rush. Then what happens is that person says.."oh I gotta go" an promptly leaves, then your left with a missing group member and you either have to find a replacement or disband and start again, which actually wastes more peoples time than having 1 or 2 wipes.

Edited by Jinsali
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Was always my thought that if you don't have the time for some errors in a FP, you really don't have time for a FP. :p

If by "errors" you mean server/ISP flukes, and a few honest mistakes which may or may not cause minor setbacks. But if it's the same person screwing up over and over and impeding progress, and the group kicks them, it's not the group that's being inconsiderate or disrespectful.

 

Everquest had personal rewards and progression a hell of a lot better than the current state of MMORPG's and you know what, people were a lot more relaxed in that game. Try being in a 60 man raid where one wrong foot from 1 player could wipe the entire raid. I was a main tank for many of these and you know what, even with 60 people dying 5 times, not one person was ever kicked from the raid. This was in a game where you actually could lose levels from dying.

Only 5 times? Why so little?

 

I remember well wiping in 60-man raids in EQ and in 40-man raids in WoW, but that was way different. Also about the loot, but different in terms of organization and player interaction. Unless your raid had cohesion, you could not progress. To build cohesion, you needed a stable cadre of people with sufficient attention span and open enough schedule. And that means knowing eachother and organizing educational runs to specifically build your cadre.

 

You didn't just take noname PuGs. If you needed replacement, you had backup members on sitout, ready to jump in.

 

TL;DR If you were in, you were in. But if you started to systematically waste people's time by making dumb mistakes over and over and/or not showing up, you'd either get demoted from the static group, or kicked out of the guild.

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people that read guides are just lazy and not really gamers....just players. they lack the intelligence and patience to figure out the tricky situations and makes you wonder what would happen in RL if they run into a problem and they don't have a guide to refer to...must suck, huh?

 

part of the fun and excitement is figuring out the mechanics. you have the option of not running the pug with the new guys, you can easily go form your own groups with your guildies and friends.

 

edit - corrected spelling

 

Not true whatsoever. Most raid groups require that the raiders look up the strats briefly before attending the raid. It's not too hard to extend that to other group play in which you are taking up someone else's time. Unless you are with a group of people who WANTS to give you the time to learn and explore on your own (whereas they've already been through it enough to know it by heart), it's unfair to waste their time.

 

You should always be somewhat informed before wandering into a situation involving other people you don't know. I expect people who roleplay around me to have at least a basic understanding of the lore they're trying to portray. I expect people who come into PvP matches to have looked at the little thing that tells you how the WZ works, or listen to the announcement. I expect someone who comes in for a job interview to know what they're interviewing for and to have a concept of what an interview entails.

 

I don't think that's asking for much. When you're not wasting other peoples' time, you can go about and take as long as you want to figure things out.

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<snip>

How about some of you champions taking the time to walk them through a flashpoint once instead of jumping up and down on the spot and spamming spacebar so you can get your dailies and then complaining that everyone is so bad. Reading the forums this morning, and people are getting roasted for not knowing how to play when they have only just subscribed to the game.

<snip>

Troll away...

 

Because there are THOUSANDS of bads, and only so much patience even the best player has. I save "explanations" for players who are able and willing to learn. Most aren't. So, go do your homework, and then we'll talk. It shows you at least give a half of a sh*t.

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This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon if they die once.

 

It is most certainly not 'this entire different generation' as it has been pretty much a mainstay attitude since I started playing MMOs almost a decade ago.

People who have run content many times have always expected others to make an effort as well.

 

This is not some new issue; it's been that way for ages. Especially in games where death actually matters much more than TOR.

 

As for the argument at hand; then there's arguments for and against.

The argument one way obviously being why others should educate you; that's what a guild is for. or joining a group where others are like minded about trial an error.

The other is that we were all new once, and had to learn things 'the hard way'.

 

But ultimately - it comes down to the players at hand. If somebody doesn't want to educate you, it's their choice. If you don't want to group with somebody like that, that's your choice.

Choice.

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If by "errors" you mean server/ISP flukes, and a few honest mistakes which may or may not cause minor setbacks. But if it's the same person screwing up over and over and impeding progress, and the group kicks them, it's not the group that's being inconsiderate or disrespectful.

 

 

Only 5 times? Why so little?

 

I remember well wiping in 60-man raids in EQ and in 40-man raids in WoW, but that was way different. Also about the loot, but different in terms of organization and player interaction. Unless your raid had cohesion, you could not progress. To build cohesion, you needed a stable cadre of people with sufficient attention span and open enough schedule. And that means knowing eachother and organizing educational runs to specifically build your cadre.

 

You didn't just take noname PuGs. If you needed replacement, you had backup members on sitout, ready to jump in.

 

TL;DR If you were in, you were in. But if you started to systematically waste people's time by making dumb mistakes over and over and/or not showing up, you'd either get demoted from the static group, or kicked out of the guild.

 

People do play this game because it's a game, and do play games without going straight to the players guide.

 

And no, you're wrong. The proper thing to do in a Group Finder team, if teamed with a first timer, would be to quit the team if you don't like that they're a first timer, not kick them. Group finder is a tool for first timers to learn.

 

Thinking the majority of players want to go watch a video of someone else playing a game (boring to do) or read a guide, is like thinking a majority of players come and read the forums. Tip: They dont.

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Not to waste time for the people who are looking to finish/do the content instead of failing for hours because of some lazy fool. If you are so eager to fail, then do it on your own or with friends who have similar mindset. Not everyone has time to do this. Some "study" at work or school so they will be able to do the stuff they want to accomplish within the limited time frame they might have.

 

I think you're the one being lazy here. I've played 3 of 4 new HM FPs via GF so far without reading anything on them, actually in 2 of theme ther were more such people in the group than 1. All of them went really smoothly since there were nice people willing to explain boss fights in few sentences. No big deal. If u refuse to tell somebody those few sentences, then don't be surprised your group keeps failing for hours.

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Why should anyone have to understand how to play football before they show up for a game? Isn't that the point of a game, to play and have fun learning while you're at it? Expecting people to know the rules and how to play their position before they show up on Friday (or Sunday) for the game is really stupid.

 

The coach shouldn't be allowed to kick players off the team in pre season either. So what if a player doesn't show up to camp, doesn't know the playbook, isn't in shape and has no idea what they're doing and just wants a big paycheck, they should be allowed to play, they're a player too!

 

Straw argument, and not a particularly good one, at that. Start paying me to play the game your way, just like your ball player example, then you can enumerate what I should or shouldn't do in preparation for a flashpoint. Until then, you have exactly zero say and zero business dictating to someone else how they should play their games, particularly if they're using group finder for a story mode. This has an automatic presupposition that you're going to get people who are running it for the first time. If you can't handle that fact, stop using it to run story mode flashpoints. Heck, I prefer to spacebar my way through FP's that I've done already, but I'm not going to be an utter b**** if someone wants to take in the story line, first time or otherwise. I don't have that right.

 

You might have a case in talking about HM, but by that point, they should have run it in story mode, and know all the ins and outs of the FP in question. That's one of the things that story mode is for, learning how the flashpoint is supposed to go, and one's place in it. It gets you ready for HM, so if someone popped into a HM and says "Hey, first time running this," I could forgive you for freaking out and giving them the boot.

 

Every server, including the defunct ones, had an original set of people who ran these flashpoints for the first time on that server without the benefit of someone's Youtube guide. If someone can show me conclusive proof that they're one of these esteemed luminaries, great, I'll accept the criticisms. If not, they can bloody well deal with it and play, because their opinion counts for precisely zero.

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I think there are a number of different issues here that are being shoved into one. If you could generalize about these problems, it would probably be new players versus very experienced players. The new players want people to slow down, and the experienced players want people to speed up. The "mistake" here is in the extremes.

 

New players should not expect everyone to hold their hands. In that respect new players have an obligation to learn a bit before complaining, which is what the OP is doing, complaining that no one will hold his hand over the vewy scawy bwidge! Poor OP. So get a clue here and stop whining.

 

BUT....he does have a point.....

 

When experienced players spacebar through a conversation so they can rush to the end and claim victory, THAT'S also a problem. What's the hurry there, guys? Are you going to miss your dinner if you don't get done in time? The storyline is what makes this game better than a simple FPS that acts like a pinball game. If you've been through this a dozen times before then I question your sanity for doing it yet again. Isn't time you might consider moving on? Your "experience" here is a detriment to the rest of the people playing the game.

 

BOTH extremes are annoying, and BOTH need to compromise toward the middle.

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By this logic, I should be able to go out and get whatever job I want without ample research of said job or the required fields of pre-required work that I need to apply for said job. Alright, off to become CEO of a big name company.

 

Study is how we come better at the things we do. It applies to video games too.

Edited by spectreclees
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Only 5 times? Why so little?

 

Also about the loot, but different in terms of organization and player interaction. Unless your raid had cohesion, you could not progress. To build cohesion, you needed a stable cadre of people with sufficient attention span and open enough schedule. And that means knowing eachother and organizing educational runs to specifically build your cadre.

 

 

Because we stopped

took a breath

looked at what was going wrong and who did it

 

then explained to that person(s) what they did wrong and completed the job.

 

And if you played EQ and did 60 man raids, then you'd remember how buggy it was sometimes that mobs could agro through walls because there was an issue with the collision correction on the npc's where they could be partially in walls and agro half the dungeon on the other side.

 

As to a cadre of people..not really we had 5 main people. In a 60 man raid that was 1 main tank, 1 off-tank, 2 healers and 1 puller. The rest of the raid were pick ups. Yes you'd see the same maybe 10-15 people, but I could also guarantee I saw a lot of new 1 off faces, mainly because they didn;t know what the purpose of constantly killing the big boss mobs were for, and just wanted to be part of taking down a Dragon.

 

Not sure what server you played EQ on but we never had a wait list of any sort for the 60 man raids.

 

WoW was another beast altogether because the ADHD crowd didn't like spending 3-4 hours clearing their way to the end boss to wipe. Thus became the quick path dungeons they have now which can be completed in 20-30 mins.

 

I learnt on EQ where you;d have to spend 2-3 hours fighting your way into a dungeon, then spend 8 hours killing placeholders to get the boss to spawn, in hopes of getting the loot you wanted. If you didn;t get the loot, it was rinse & repeat all over again.

 

Now you tell me if todays gamers have the ability to sit there and do that??

 

This is why people want fast instances, no wipes. Get in, get the easy loot. If it doesn't drop rerun. They can get 7-8 done in a couple of hours and get near instant gear. No patience what-so-ever in my opinion.

Edited by Jinsali
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This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon if they die once.

 

^ this

 

Many of the current generation of "gamers" (regardless of age) are coddled, spoiled, and really just chickens.

 

It continues to amaze me how upset people get when they lose at the tougher Heroics. Especially considering nothing in this game is particularly difficult, and there is essentially no penalty for failure anyway.

 

Beating something that you can't possibly lose to is not an accomplishment.

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