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Seriously, why should people study...


Jarnaktane

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This thread is filled with opinions on every possible side.

 

Instead of being angry, that should make you happy! There is a VAST community within this game -- many of whom never read the forums, and may have varying opinions not expressed here.

 

You're an adult, I'd assume. Or at least old enough to understand that your opinion isn't more important than anyone elses. No one here is right -- and yet, everyone is. You decide how you want to play, and that's fine. However - it's not socially acceptable to ask others to conform to your style. The current "norm" in the game is to know what you are getting youself into -- either by having done it before, or having a basic understanding of mechanics.

 

Don't like that? Fine! Not a problem - but you should probably make SOME attempt to remedy the "problem" you're talking about. Find a guild of like-minded individuals. Make a few friends who want to do the same thing, or are willing to do the same thing. The entire point of the game being multiplayer is to be social! Make some friends, group with the same people, etc.

 

In the raid group I run with, we're all fairly casual players. We range from playing 2 hours a week, to upwards of 30 -- but everyone is doing something they enjoy, not trying to be "elite." We require everyone to come to our raids with knowledge of mechanics and the fight. If you don't -- you're warned. If you continue, you're out. No hard feelings -- but the other 7 people all agreed to raid this way.

 

We play for fun. We're also casual players who don't have hours to spend grinding away. Some may be slower on the up-take than others, and that's fine. We enjoy raiding with eachother, and things are more fun for us as a group if we all have some level of knowledge going into the fights.

 

On the other hand -- in FFXI and WoW Vanilla -- I raided with guilds similar to your mindset, and had a blast. I also had fewer RL responsibilities, so I was able to play 40+ hours every week. Near the end of my time with those guilds, it felt like a job -- and not like fun. My playstyle changed, so I bowed out instead of complaining about it.

 

TL;DR - It's a game. Everyone will play it differently, so find people who want to play it the way you do. No sense in complaining that other people play it differently -- why get so upset over a game?

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Some group of people (Long ago in a galaxy far, far away) had to go about it the hard way. Wipe after wipe after wipe, learning the mechanics of it so that we can just simply read and dominate.

 

I mean c'mon here. You want to go through it with learning it as you go. Go ahead.

However, do it with like minded folk.

 

There are other people who simply just want the answers given to them so they can just breeze through it. (So to speak)

 

Okay, fine. Get the reward from someone else's trial and error. :)Again, do THAT with like minded folk, if that works for you.

 

Everyone plays the way they want to. I preferred to go through it learning it as I went. So I knew what worked with my certain group of people and classes , etc.

 

To each his/her own.:D

Edited by Foofie
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This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon as they die once.

 

^

Excellent post sir. I hate how people take things in games so seriously these days. I feel like I'm always the only one who realizes that it is just a game.

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Weirdly enough, that's exactly how people become CEO's in business.

 

"I have no idea what I'm doing."

 

-Mark Zuckerberg

 

The problem here is that while Mark may have not know a lot about running a company (I suppose he does now), he is a programming genius. Not everyone is a genius, so they have to learn things before they try them (it might not be hard to learn it, but they have to learn it).

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

As for my opinion, I guess the best analogy would be trying to cook something. Yo never cooked it, so what do you do? Ruin any number of ingredients and risk setting your kitchen ablaze? Or do you look up or ask someone more experienced for some advice?

Learning from mistakes of others is how the society and any field of human activity evolves. We know today that blowing tobacco smoke into water will not create gold, but it was not proven until Jara Cimrman tried it.

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You should study up on ops before participating in one to be courteous to the experienced players allowing you to participate in their group.

 

1) Study up. Text read-throughs work better for me than videos, unless its a good quality video. In any case, you'll need to read up before you watch the video so that you know what to look for in the video.

 

2) Ask questions you already know the answer to so their confidence in you is increased, and as a means to double check what you've learned. "So in stage one, staying out of ground AOE is key, right? Then in stage two the targeted player has to LOS the cannon before its cast completes or its a one-shot?"

 

3) Stay positive, and ask for feedback. Keep learning.

Edited by Akash
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As for my opinion, I guess the best analogy would be trying to cook something. Yo never cooked it, so what do you do? Ruin any number of ingredients and risk setting your kitchen ablaze? Or do you look up or ask someone more experienced for some advice?

Learning from mistakes of others is how the society and any field of human activity evolves. We know today that blowing tobacco smoke into water will not create gold, but it was not proven until Jara Cimrman tried it.

 

Well cooking is a bit different then trying something in a game. There really is not much to lose except a few hours and some in game credits.

 

In real life,. where, some folks consider it a game, but some do not. Cooking mishaps could cause a lot of things that in game credits could not fix so quickly. (Sickness, fire, damage)

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No, it's not. What's normal is for the player to understand the mechanics of a game through trial and error.

Why would he want to "look up" something? What if it's his first time playing and he doesn't want to ruin what little shred of story there is to be found in these Flashpoints? And who are you to dictate his play-style.

 

Now i's my turn to :rolleyes:

 

If you want to find out how to run an operation yourself through trial and error join a guild that does things that way. Most of us have run this stuff before and don't feel like explaining it, over and over again, every time we add a new person to the raid.

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If you want to find out how to run an operation yourself through trial and error join a guild that does things that way. Most of us have run this stuff before and don't feel like explaining it, over and over again, every time we add a new person to the raid.

 

With that said,

 

Don't add new people to your raids, then.:rolleyes:

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With that said,

 

Don't add new people to your raids, then.:rolleyes:

 

Not possible. People come and go in a game, RL beckons, new distractions await. That doesn't mean new members can't have the decency for a little common courtesy.

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Well, I actually enjoy some prep-time (something that stuck with me from my WoW raiding days). Back when my first character hit 50, I really prepared so I could make the jump from normal to heroic flashpoints, this was much before we got literal EPICS IN THE MAIL.

 

I wanted to be an asset, not a hindrance. And honestly, I can't understand the opposite mentality. Also, we're assuming that people that can be arsed to google for 5 minutes eventually learn, in my experience bad players never learn and are constantly carried.

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I'm not asking anyone to "study", but if you're a bad player who doesn't know your skills or your classes best rotation, or even just a decent rotation, don't whine when I eventually drop group with you. Your laziness and lack of any effort costs me much more than it costs you. My time IS valuable and I'm willing to be exceptionally patient with players who WANT to improve...but lazy twits that just want to afk their way through a sloppy HM 55 FP in their Tionese gear, I have no patience with.

 

I'm 100% a "casual" player - I'll get 2 nights this whole week to play...but when I do play, I play to win, not "lol" as you realize what buttons do what.

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Not possible. People come and go in a game, RL beckons, new distractions await. That doesn't mean new members can't have the decency for a little common courtesy.

 

Well then, where does common courtesy start and end?

 

Why is it limited to what one person (so to speak) considers common courtesy?

 

Is it not just as courteous to explain to a newcomer what to expect?

 

As you said "People come and go in a game, RL beckons, new distractions await"

 

So with that, you have to adjust to the newcomer who may not have read it or... not let them into your raid.

 

Again. Your ( not saying you specifically) definition of common courtesy is different from others.

 

If you want to get it done and someone joins your group. You can wait or quickly explain if they do not know.

 

/shrug

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Well cooking is a bit different then trying something in a game. There really is not much to lose except a few hours and some in game credits.

 

In real life,. where, some folks consider it a game, but some do not. Cooking mishaps could cause a lot of things that in game credits could not fix so quickly. (Sickness, fire, damage)

 

Doing something in a game is doing something in real life. I am dedicating my time, as a human being, of which I have a finite amount in the day, to playing a game. I do not need to have my time wasted by people who can't read instructions before trying to accomplish a task.

 

If you want to die a dozen times on the same Zelda puzzle, fine.

 

If you want to spend 3 hours trying to figure out how to finish a 2+ Heroic with a friend that shares your mindset, fine.

 

But do not waste the time of 3 or 7 other people by not researching before hand. That's a lot of man hours to go to waste for one person trying to "learn through experience".

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Well then, where does common courtesy start and end?

 

Why is it limited to what one person (so to speak) considers common courtesy?

 

Is it not just as courteous to explain to a newcomer what to expect?

 

As you said "People come and go in a game, RL beckons, new distractions await"

 

So with that, you have to adjust to the newcomer who may not have read it or... not let them into your raid.

 

Again. Your ( not saying you specifically) definition of common courtesy is different from others.

 

If you want to get it done and someone joins your group. You can wait or quickly explain if they do not know.

 

/shrug

 

No, it isn't a reasonable expectation for a newcomer to feel entitled that 15 other people should postpone their fun for the night so that one person who hasn't bothered to learn anything about an operation can be brought up to speed.

 

If you've made an effort to learn, you will find the vast majority of progression players more than willing to help you in any way they can. But if you go in refusing to have done any homework beforehand and expect to be carried, you should expect to be dropped.

Edited by Akash
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It's unavoidable when fights are scripted, when new mechanisms are present in the FP or OP that were not presented in normal gameplay, with special powers that zap if not interrupted, all the usual mechanics of the endgame that you have to know in order to survive the fight.

 

I rather dislike that personally, I'd much rather have something less special and more dynamic/unpredictable rather than these very scripted fights. But well, I guess I'll have to wait for another game to implement that, one day, maybe.

In the meantime, you have to at least look it up a bit in advance and/or warn your partners that you don't know the FP and accept to be booted if they can't be bothered to tell you how to make it work.

Edited by RibbitRibbit
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Well then, where does common courtesy start and end?

 

Why is it limited to what one person (so to speak) considers common courtesy?

 

Is it not just as courteous to explain to a newcomer what to expect?

 

As you said "People come and go in a game, RL beckons, new distractions await"

 

So with that, you have to adjust to the newcomer who may not have read it or... not let them into your raid.

 

Again. Your ( not saying you specifically) definition of common courtesy is different from others.

 

If you want to get it done and someone joins your group. You can wait or quickly explain if they do not know.

 

/shrug

 

 

The "social norm" right now is to know fights prior to grouping. Even if it's just a basic understanding of mechanics.

 

Common courtesy would be conforming to the social norm. If you have no interest in this, it would be courteous of YOU to find a group of people willing to run through it with you not knowing anything.

 

If the point is to learn through experience -- find some friends that want to do the same. All the more fun when you are ALL enjoying it.

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This problem creates a cycle. People new to ops/FPs don't want to queue because they don't want to get fussed at for not knowing, and experienced players don't want to deal with newer people queuing. There are a lot of players who once they get kicked for not knowing something simply won't group again through group finder. Thus, the pool of people using group finder shrinks and queue times get longer.

 

Here's another complication to the matter: I know my FPs pretty well, and I still won't queue. Why? Not because I don't want to teach new people, but because I can't stand the players that act like it's the end of the darn world when someone is new to a particular piece of content and doesn't know how to do it extremely well yet. I don't want to put up with the drama of people acting like petulant children, so I very rarely queue. I know I am not alone--in my guild, many players won't queue for very similar reasons, they don't want to spend their time either a) watching stupid drama from some jerk who can't handle new people or b) getting involved and also arguing with that rude person. I do that type of content almost exclusively with guildies, and if there aren't any available to run the FP I want then I often wait for another time to run it.

 

I can tell you this--if I am in a group finder group and a jerk like that initiates a vote kick solely because the person is new to the content, I wlll vote against them and then promptly initiate a vote kick against them. If they don't get kicked, I drop group and /ignore them and anyone that voted with them so I never group with them again. I queue almost exclusively as tank or heals, so I never have a long wait. If I have a 10% longer wait on average because of my /ignore list, I'll gladly pay that price not to have to play with people like that. Besides, I only use group finder about once a week or less, so I'm not that fussed about it.

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So let me get this straight.

 

This is an argument over people who do not want to go and read what someone else has posted on how to run a FP and it's mechanics cause it might ruin there experience but are more then happy to read what someone else has typed to them (or posted in chat) on the mechanics of a FP?

 

No wonder people get kicked out of FP's if thats the debate.

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Doing something in a game is doing something in real life. I am dedicating my time, as a human being, of which I have a finite amount in the day, to playing a game. I do not need to have my time wasted by people who can't read instructions before trying to accomplish a task.

 

If you want to die a dozen times on the same Zelda puzzle, fine.

 

If you want to spend 3 hours trying to figure out how to finish a 2+ Heroic with a friend that shares your mindset, fine.

 

But do not waste the time of 3 or 7 other people by not researching before hand. That's a lot of man hours to go to waste for one person trying to "learn through experience".

 

So go with like minded people.

 

I think that is the best solution.

 

If your dedicated time is spent waiting for people who have read the instructions, you may find it taking a tiny bit longer then joining a PUG where folks may or may not have read them.. It does happen.

 

You can have someone who read the guide from top to bottom and not know a darned thing about their rotation and STILL wipe you..

 

It works the other way around.

 

Just because I did not read the "how to" doesn't mean I do not know my class and can contribute.

 

So waste time finding folks who definitely read it (ideal for some) or

gather a PUG (if that is what you are doing) and then ask and explain.

 

Either way, it is a crap shoot.

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Everytime I run FP's or random Ops before each boss pull I ask if everyone has done it. If there are people that say no they have not then I will explain everything needed to survive the fight. NO biggie. Most of the time people do get it. Just some people are lazy and dont want to take the time to explain it.
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I have a hard time making my mind up on this one as well.

 

On the one hand, I understand wanting to get through ops and fps as quickly as possible, and having spend several minutes explaining a boss fight to a new person can be irritating for folks who have already run it 1000 times.

 

On the other hand, I find that all the research in the world on a fight is no substitute for first-hand experience. Plus it's hard to find videos and and how-to guides that don't have spoilers in them.

 

Ultimately it comes down to having patience and consideration and understanding for our fellow players, and remembering that we were all noobs once.

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The "social norm" right now is to know fights prior to grouping. Even if it's just a basic understanding of mechanics.

 

Common courtesy would be conforming to the social norm. If you have no interest in this, it would be courteous of YOU to find a group of people willing to run through it with you not knowing anything.

 

If the point is to learn through experience -- find some friends that want to do the same. All the more fun when you are ALL enjoying it.

 

We learned it on our own.. That was US, not everyone else. However, when we run with newcomers. We explain it. And we do fine. We don't ask if they read the guide when we can certainly explain it to someone who has never been there before, who wishes to learn. Sure it would help but it is not that paramount. (Still that is our guild and we do just fine, I know I cannot speak for everyone else)

 

I am not saying either way is bad. or good. What I am saying is that ONE way is not the ONLY way.

 

and like I said, play with like minded people if you can't afford to pickup someone who hasn't read the instructions.

 

A player may have a Limited time to play. they want to go on a FP or OP for the first time. their guild is not on. This is their 4-6 hour allotment of play time for the week.

 

They just want to play.. they know their rotation and know they can contribute.

 

there is nothing wrong with being prepared. Please do not think that is what I am trying to get across. I am prepared because I learned the way I learned and share that with anyone who i happen to group with.

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It's ultimately not an issue of should someone read up on things outside of game or experience them inside of game. It's ultimately an issue of courtesy.

 

IMO, anyone queuing for a random group, whether it be a FP or an OP; should already know their role in whatever they are queuing for. Whether that was learned by reading an external site or from experiencing the content with friends/guild mates I don't care. While I have no problem explaining fights to someone in a PuG; I can completely understand why others feel that they shouldn't have to. If you don't know the mechanics of a zone, you need to learn it with friends or from an online site before you subject yourself upon random strangers and expect them to carry you and explain it all to you.

 

However, it as just as dis-courteous for anyone to join a random group of strangers and not expect that you may need to explain a few things to people. It's not like that 30 seconds of your life is so important that you can be a jerk to someone for "wasting" it. However, if it is happening every single group....frustration starts to set in and ppl loose their heads. In that situation, I tend to just quit running PuGs for a week or two and only run with friends/guildees until I'm willing to live with a little more hand-holding again.

 

Ulimtately I agree that NOBODY should HAVE to read 3rd party sites or even the forums for a game specifically to learn anything about it. Experience it through playing if that is what you choose, but be aware that joining random PuGs without knowing anything about the zone you are going into is being dis-respectful of those strangers time as yelling and being rude at someone for NOT knowing the fights is to you.

 

It's the same mentallity why so many people now days buy a game and the Game Guide the same day at the store and then go home and start the game after already reading how to beat it.

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