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Seriously, why should people study...


Jarnaktane

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We learned it on our own.. That was US, not everyone else. However, when we run with newcomers. We explain it. And we do fine. We don't ask if they read the guide when we can certainly explain it to someone who has never been there before, who wishes to learn. Sure it would help but it is not that paramount. (Still that is our guild and we do just fine, I know I cannot speak for everyone else)

 

I am not saying either way is bad. or good. What I am saying is that ONE way is not the ONLY way.

 

and like I said, play with like minded people if you can't afford to pickup someone who hasn't read the instructions.

 

A player may have a Limited time to play. they want to go on a FP or OP for the first time. their guild is not on. This is their 4-6 hour allotment of play time for the week.

 

They just want to play.. they know their rotation and know they can contribute.

 

there is nothing wrong with being prepared. Please do not think that is what I am trying to get across. I am prepared because I learned the way I learned and share that with anyone who i happen to group with.

 

 

I'm only pointing out that, if you go unprepared to a FP through groupfinder, and you don't know the fights -- speak up. If you don't speak up, expect to be booted.

 

The "social norm" I'm talking about it solely for GF runs. It's expected that you know the fights -- or at least know of them. I have NO issue quickly running over mechanics for people -- but I'm also fairly good at explaining it to people.

 

I just don't understand the argument against reading up -- it takes less than 5 minutes to scan over the phases/abilities -- most of the FP bosses are simple. We had a guildie who didn't even know there were guides on them, and was so happy we pointed them out!

 

First hand experience is always best -- but, I find it more fun when I have *some* idea as to what will be coming. FPs are MUCH more forgiving. I don't think there is any excuse to NOT read up on OPs bosses -- and I will gladly kick someone out for not reading up. Even those take 10 minutes or less, but there is MUCH more information for me to type into chat. I rarely do GF Ops without a majority of guild mates, though -- so it isn't really an issue for me. And, gulidies that don't know the fights -- well, they all agree to read up before hand, and we quickly go over it in Mumble for those that had questions, or just wanted a refresher.

 

 

I think my problem is more the people who don't want to know anything about the fight before doing it. THAT is the attitude that can ruin others playstyle -- and THAT goes against the "norm". I love that people want to do that -- and I used to do that, but my playstyle changed, and I don't want to anymore :-D My original response to OP was basically "Find others who want the playstyle you like. But don't expect everyone to like your playstyle, as the majority of people don't."

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For 49.999 levels, this game is ridiculously simple. TOR is the only MMO ever where it's completely possible, and I have seen this firsthand more times than I can recall, where a player can be completely clueless about their character's abilities and can be completely clueless about how group tactics and roles work, without it negatively affecting their ability to solo their class to 50.

 

I've grouped with people in their mid-30's who have not picked their advanced class.

I've grouped with people in their 30's who have never grouped, at all.

I've grouped with people who don't know their Sorcerer/Sage can crowd control, or even know what crowd control is.

I've grouped with Assassins/Shadows who don't know they have a "backstab".

I've grouped with every class that don't know what AoE, cc, or agro is.

 

Compounding this problem is the often belligerent and often hostile reactions from other players that don't seem to have a speck of patience or understanding that this game breeds moronic activity by its design. When the game fails to train players to play, it is up to other players to do so.

 

This game isn't rocket science, brain surgery, or rocket surgery. It's Duke Nukem with a few more buttons. Take the time to train other players and the game will be better for it. Some people are just thick and will never learn, but most people will listen to advice and adapt, even learn. Relax. If people show that they are learning, keep at it. Don't kick someone before you even start, that's just being a dick and the game has way too many of those already.

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It's unavoidable when fights are scripted, when new mechanisms are present in the FP or OP that were not presented in normal gameplay, with special powers that zap if not interrupted, all the usual mechanics of the endgame that you have to know in order to survive the fight.

 

I rather dislike that personally, I'd much rather have something less special and more dynamic/unpredictable rather than these very scripted fights. But well, I guess I'll have to wait for another game to implement that, one day, maybe.

In the meantime, you have to at least look it up a bit in advance and/or warn your partners that you don't know the FP and accept to be booted if they can't be bothered to tell you how to make it work.

 

Wow, the number of people responding to this thread that learning as you go in an HMFP/HMOP is perfectly okay just blows me away. There's a concept a few have pointed out to this group that seems to be roundly ignored by the 'learn as you go' crowd. What is the most valuable commodity in the game?

 

Time! There's only so much of it and when you've run the story mode version of an FP or OP a zillion times, you're only running the heoric version for comms (and loot) and you only have so much time to make that happen. To have somebody (or somebodies) show up assuming their time is more valuable than mine by having the gall to not know what they're doing is just BS with a capital B.

 

If you want to learn as you go then play in the SM version. DONOT show up to my HMFP/HMOP and expect anything but the boot and probably some derisive words for wasting MY time.

 

It has nothing to do with being patient, being courteous, being understanding, being helpful (and in SMFP's and OP's I've been all of those things many times over). It's all about time and for any person or group to assume that my time is their time is just plain insulting. If you don't understand that, please go queue in some other game.

Edited by uziforyou
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Wow, the number of people responding to this thread that learning as you go in an HMFP/HMOP is perfectly okay just blows me away. (Remaining clipped)

 

I've read this entire thread today and have been amazed at the lack of distinction between HM and SM except for the line I quoted above and one other poster I can't seem to find. So many have stated their opinions based on thinking of HM and not even considering leveling and SM.

 

Seriously, if you are running SM FPs and SM OPs, you better except to run across people who have never done them before. That means: 1) No previous experience with the fights, 2) They want to listen to the cut scenes in their fullness, and 3) It may be their first time in SWTOR. Story Mode is all about enjoying the story and it provides everyone a way to experience the content the way it should be... with full immersion and without having to read a guide outside the game. I'm with the "learn as you go" folks on this one. Even as I create an alt and run FPs, I expect to group with new players and am more than willing to assist them with fights for the first time. If you don't like helping people, then don't play a SM FP or SM OP through Group Finder and use one of the many other methods in this game to gear up and level.

 

Now, as uziforyou makes the distinction, HardMode FPs and OPs are a different animal. If you are running a Hard Mode, would would expect either 1) You have run the SM equivalent and therefore know the fights or 2) Have gone outside game to read the guides and therefore know the specifics. You really have too at this level of play for many of the reasons already mentioned: Time and Increased Repair costs being the biggest concerns.

 

I just joined a guild who has a lot of players who have never done most of the OPs and I'm actually enjoying running with them on an alt because some fights are a challenge again. I also enjoy helping others learn how best to play their characters as the SM OPs is where they really learn, because from 1-50 you really don't know to be well versed in your class to play this game. It only makes it easier the more versed you are.

Edited by Lumpyone
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OK, so I came back to have a look (someone owes me a wall of text :-)). Impressive (for the most part) range of responses and arguments.

 

I even have some concessions to make from my original post.

 

As far as Hard Mode goes I don't think any player that is not well versed in Story Mode should be queuing with strangers. This is where you run with friends/acquaintances or (most importantly) guildies. If you join a good guild people will be prepared to show you these things. BOOTING people from story mode (people that are trying to learn, yes they should listen to friendly advice, no they shouldn't bother to listen when your first sentence to them in group or whisper is "you suck", or "L2P", or "FFS...") is just poor form no matter what your argument. Reading guides might help people understand, but playing the game makes them a better gamer, and from my past experiences you can usually let someone know what went wrong in three or four short sentences and most people will get it right pretty quickly after that.

 

Same goes with Ops generally, HOWEVER, I would like to think that one or two people that read my initial post will stop and briefly (BRIEFLY) explain to newcomers what the basic no no's are and what their role is in the OP. By that I mean one or two more than would have already, seems there are still plenty of nice guys left from the posts here. If that happens just once more than it would have I am happy I posted in the first place.

 

I told my friend to join a guild for OP's anyway, explain that she is learning, and it seems to be working. We are on different servers so I am not really sure.

 

In PUG WZ's people need to relax. One, it's PVP, not everyone is elite like you (You are clearly awesome). If someone is bad, either

 

1) Accept it and do your best to win the WZ with the balance of the group. Five or six good players (with two hopeless clueless deaf little noobs) can still flog eight reasonable players.

 

2) Or you could issue a full instruction (That would take too long you reckon! BOLLOCKS! Here's one, "Hey PLAYERNAME, follow me and focus on using your heals to keep the group up." Wow, that took ages! Or here's another. "Hey PLAYERNAME, the team needs you to try and disrupt/kill their healers. This way." Truly I am exhausted after typing that. One more, "Hey PLAYERNAME, Since your a tank we need you to stay right in the zone next to ..., don't worry about the damage you are taking, our heals will try to keep you up". If you try this method, the next PUG you are in with them they will already know, and you can give them another helpful tip instead. "Hey dude, don't flee headlong into the fire pit LOL, run behind the ... to block their LOS!" (unless they ignore your advice in which case revert to 1).

 

Crapping on new players because they are new players is just woeful, and what is worse is that it means there are less players actually PVP'ing and Grouping, which makes queues longer.

 

Anyway, thank's to everyone for replying to the thread, whether you agreed/disagreed or just trolled because your momma didn't love you as a child!

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...how to play Flashpoints, Operations and Warzones on the internet instead of logging in to the game and learning to play them by actually playing them.

bad player always want other ppl to take his fault,

if u dont want to study,

go play urself,

play a console game, then ur failure wont hurt anybody but urself,

 

DO NOT play a MMO if u don't want to study and YOUR fault cause others die!.

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bad player always want other ppl to take his fault,

if u dont want to study,

go play urself,

play a console game, then ur failure wont hurt anybody but urself,

 

DO NOT play a MMO if u don't want to study and YOUR fault cause others die!.

 

1) I am not a bad player, I'm not a PVP God, but I am fine/verging on pretty bloody decent PVE wise

2) I don't want to study, all this success in real life stuff is due to study is awesome for real life, this is a game, I use it

to relax. If you use it to grow your epeen I can not comprehend the amount of rage you must feel towards people

who play a game for fun. Those evil dogs, kill them all I say.

3) I do this all the time anyway, although generally in shower or during a Satele Shan monologue (no space barring

for that little lady!)

4) Console games are OK I suppose, but I think I will stay here and hope you don't hunt me down in real life and give

me a stern talking to for not studying.

 

5) Hahahahahahaha. Say what?

Edited by Jarnaktane
Awesomeness
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Had a Lost Island run, one guy who never did it didn't bother telling us until he caused wipes; and the tank asked if everyone was familiar / knew the basics before we started. He made small mistakes along the way, it happens, so our group shrugged it off. Wasn't until we got the robotic boss with the lava floor panels when he told us.

 

So we gave him a detailed description of what to do (which wasted some time one of the team members didn't really have extra of). So we start the fight, and already he doesn't run away from the aoe we told him about, almost wipes the tank and the other dps, then he doesn't move from the lava/fire blasting from the floor, he almost dies (and I have to waste ammo healing him), then he doesn't kill adds at first during each wave.

 

He gives his "oh sorry, etc." post but we don't even bother replying to it. Later on we get the boss with the pit of lava and pressure pipes. Once more we waste some time we shouldn't have to had wasted in explaining it to him. We ask him a 2nd and 3rd time if he understands what to do this time - he says yes. So the fight starts.......he dies instantly because he didn't jump when the boss did, leaving us with 3. Long story short, his enrage hit because we lacked dps. We try a second time, this time he walks off the platform. Third time he finally doesn't do something stupid and we kill the boss.

 

Bonus boss rinse and repeat with time wasted on explaining. He doesn't move when the boss is pounding the ground and ice is falling....not enough dps, enrage timer. He doesn't move again the second time, res him mid fight even in hopes he pumps up the dps...he doesn't walk AGAIN, dies, enrage timer... Third time we kill the boss.

 

Final boss we were weary of his BS. A final time we wasted with explanations. Luckily we killed / got very close to killing the Lorrick clones so they were not a problem. The dps in question doesn't bother to listen about dots and walks merrily around. Keeping group alive with that crap isn't fun to say the least. Miraculously we kill Lorrick with one try.

 

So happy that no rare drops came during that fight. The DPS not only wasted our time, but cost us a nice bill each.

Edited by Eillack
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I'm an old school gamer. Before the internet, before "readily available" strategies. When you had to go to the store to buy a book if you wanted to learn something. There are the people, who yes, have done this particular fp a bazillion times and just want to get through it. Then, there are the people who are playing for the first time.

 

I think what the "experienced" players have to understand is, you are probably going to play with someone who has not done a particular FP before. Some people like the thrill of figuring it out for themselves, not having it handed to them. There is a sense of accomplishment when you can say, "yeah I figured that out." as opposed to, "yeah, I looked it up online, or used an app on my phone."

 

What I used to do is flat out say at the beginning of a FP, "Hey guys, fyi this is my first run through of this." I've had enjoyable groups, where the "experienced" stopped, took the time before fighing a boss, "Hey, so here's what we need you to do." Doesn't take much.

 

I find I have the least fun in a group where there is no communication other than, "****** man! peace i'm out you guys suck". Or voting to boot someone. FYI, I will never vote to boot someone so if I"m in your group and you do so, I will always vote no on that person. How else are they going to learn?

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Wow, the number of people responding to this thread that learning as you go in an HMFP/HMOP is perfectly okay just blows me away. There's a concept a few have pointed out to this group that seems to be roundly ignored by the 'learn as you go' crowd. What is the most valuable commodity in the game?

 

Time! There's only so much of it and when you've run the story mode version of an FP or OP a zillion times, you're only running the heoric version for comms (and loot) and you only have so much time to make that happen. To have somebody (or somebodies) show up assuming their time is more valuable than mine by having the gall to not know what they're doing is just BS with a capital B.

 

If you want to learn as you go then play in the SM version. DONOT show up to my HMFP/HMOP and expect anything but the boot and probably some derisive words for wasting MY time.

 

It has nothing to do with being patient, being courteous, being understanding, being helpful (and in SMFP's and OP's I've been all of those things many times over). It's all about time and for any person or group to assume that my time is their time is just plain insulting. If you don't understand that, please go queue in some other game.

 

What your response here utterly fails to take into account is the fact that very often in HMs the strats are different as there are different mechanics in play. Therefore, even if you've done the SM version a few times it is perfectly understandable that someone doesn't yet feel fully up to speed on the HM versions.

 

Here's the thing--if you don't like working with newer players to a HM, then DON'T QUEUE. Join a guild and do your HMs with them. The group finder is open to all players, and if you don't like that then your issue is with the game designers. You do not get to simply assume the high ground on this issue saying "don't queue because you might waste my time." YOU shouldn't queue because clearly the group finder and playing with random players isn't for you. The entire game community shouldn't have to do homework simply because you think they should.

 

To paraphrase yourself back to you: do not show up in an HM that I'm in and expect anything other then a vote kick from me if you show up with this attitude. Don't waste your OWN time. It is no one's job but yours to manage your time in this game or anywhere else. Clearly group finder isn't meant for you. Join a guild, run exclusively with them, or grow up.

Edited by Eldrenath
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I don't mind dying, it happens, but if even after explaining details to dps, they fail to execute basic mechanics (like ran away after pull, avoid red things on the floor, stack under sav-rak) multiple times and I am dying for stupid reasons multiple times, they deserve a boot in their ....

 

don't know the fight? ask 'is there anything I should know?'

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...how to play Flashpoints, Operations and Warzones on the internet instead of logging in to the game and learning to play them by actually playing them.

 

I see all of the people who are elite (or think they are) in game and whenever a new player asks why they got booted, or what am I doing wrong, these champions of the game say things like google it, or check out this web page and that will tell you what you need to do. What the...?

 

Last night one of my friends actually got called a whole number of things because he hadn't studied how a warzone works before queueing for PVP! That is just phenomenally bad form!

 

Why should anyone be told to research how to play on the internet?

 

How about some of you champions taking the time to walk them through a flashpoint once instead of jumping up and down on the spot and spamming spacebar so you can get your dailies and then complaining that everyone is so bad. Reading the forums this morning, and people are getting roasted for not knowing how to play when they have only just subscribed to the game.

 

I am not actually coming back to the forums except to read the dev and patch notes from now on, so I guess the point of this post is that maybe one of these elite champions might treat new players a bit better, or at least stop directing people to study before playing.

 

Troll away...

 

I agree with you, OP. Unfortunately, there are 3 groups. One: people like you and me, casual approach, want o be useful but may not have the time or inclination to "do the homework". Two: People willing/able to look up stuff on the internet, but who also understand that others may not be willing/able to do so themselves for various reasons. Three: People who have no lives and want to be the uuuultimate Expert and Show Everyone that they are the most awesomest duuuuude (and in some cases, duuuuuuudette), in the history of all the Internets. They are experts and know every nuance of every encounter in the game and aren’t afraid to tell you so, you path3tic n00bsauce l053r.

 

It’s the #3 people I seek out, and reeeally, reeeeally want to play this game with. Because after a hard day’s work, earning a living, paying the bills, it is so rewarding to have a 13 year old hormone factory tell me I am a loser because I didn’t know that AR-53 MegaDestructoDROIDofDOOM is on a 2:30 enrage timer as of Version 3.4.5.6.2, and not a 3-minute timer, whytheheckdidyouevenlogin youalzherimerriddenstainonhumanity.

 

It is those guys I like to boil in the Huttball Acid Pit of Doom and shame them in front of their mommies.

 

I feel so much better now! :D :D :D

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When I started running Hard Modes and the like, I never looked anything up unless my group had trouble in a boss fight. That doesn't mean I went into each fight blind though.

 

I would explain at the beginning that this was my first time running this, and never had a problem with anyone explaining how to fight a boss when we got to it. You can go in and experience the story line but still ask for advice on fighting each boss without getting any spoilers. I've found most people are glad to help, it provides the new player with some experience and the group saves some money on repair bills.

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The problem is simply solved by creating an elite FP channel, invitation only. We had those in STO.

They were moderated, griefers, noobs reported and promptly banned.

If you were part of such a channel, that meant, you have the required gear, you knew the basic drill, you had the required consumables and so on.

And there were the PUGs. If you chose to PUG, than you knew what to expect. Undergeared, inexperienced players, who'd aggro the borg cube from another corner of the map. This actually was a challange for some of us ... to do PUGs, teach newbs, show off with your über build able to solo a borg cube. There is certain satisfaction in seeing a newb mess up, realize the mess, and learn from his-her mistakes. This makes the game so much more enjoyable.

But this needs less corridor like ops, and raids, and in STO space, you had ample opportunities to test various, unorthodox setups, and tactics. The OP only special gear drop was another impulse to do that special task force over and over again, and the occasional rare drop was always a thrill. Translated it had a value as a component of high end gear, or if you completed the set, it could be sold for a generous amount of the equivalent of cartel coins.

 

PS. ethics aside, I am now convinced that a succesful f2p setup needs a cartel coin stock market. This makes a part of the f2p-er generators of ingame assets, what than are bought for real cash by people who have less time, or whose time is more valuable. It's a diabolic setup, some play for the illusion of playing the game free, while others pay 2 win. Eve Online does it, STO does it. Hate it, but it works.

Edited by Dzsewdow
grammar
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I don't mind dying, it happens, but if even after explaining details to dps, they fail to execute basic mechanics (like ran away after pull, avoid red things on the floor, stack under sav-rak) multiple times and I am dying for stupid reasons multiple times, they deserve a boot in their ....

 

don't know the fight? ask 'is there anything I should know?'

 

Yup pretty much what happened in the Lost Island post I did earlier on the page before this.

 

Tank asked if anyone hasn't done this, Player X never said a thing, later says he's new. And he never followed our detailed instructions. 4-5 wipes from that.

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LOL some of the people in MMOs make me laugh. Nerd rage is heavy on this forum. It's a game people, stop taking it so seriously and slow down and enjoy the game. Help out your fellow gamers, it's not that hard...

 

There's a huge difference between helping out players who are trying, and helping out players who are simply too lazy to be bothered to pay any sort of attention. I very much enjoy this game - but I very much despise players who take advantage of others kindness. If you want my help, I'll gladly give it...but I insist you pay attention if I do and I insist on seeing you improve your play as I help.

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There's a huge difference between helping out players who are trying, and helping out players who are simply too lazy to be bothered to pay any sort of attention. I very much enjoy this game - but I very much despise players who take advantage of others kindness. If you want my help, I'll gladly give it...but I insist you pay attention if I do and I insist on seeing you improve your play as I help.

 

Though I do agree with you on that small account. Not once since I've started playing MMOs did I ever encounter such a person, maybe I have been extremely lucky, or I just didn't care enough about it. But I think people are really way too serious. Now if it was real life, then yeah I would be right there behind everyone, but as some of our fellow players have stated. There is a large population of players that are "visual" learners, or "hands on" learners. You still don't have to "nerd rage" over it.

 

I don't care about my "repair" cost. I will make it back, simple as that. If it takes all day/night to get through a FP, then so be it. It's a game...plain and simple. So why get heated over it? It's not that important.

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Though I do agree with you on that small account. Not once since I've started playing MMOs did I ever encounter such a person, maybe I have been extremely lucky, or I just didn't care enough about it. But I think people are really way too serious. Now if it was real life, then yeah I would be right there behind everyone, but as some of our fellow players have stated. There is a large population of players that are "visual" learners, or "hands on" learners. You still don't have to "nerd rage" over it.

 

I don't care about my "repair" cost. I will make it back, simple as that. If it takes all day/night to get through a FP, then so be it. It's a game...plain and simple. So why get heated over it? It's not that important.

 

TOR is unique.

 

In every other MMO, new abilities are phased in with incremental changes to mob abilities and/or AI. TOR has no mob AI and the vast majority of mobs behave exactly the same from level 1 to 50. Characters get new abilities that might never be used because the player is having zero difficulty killing mobs with the abilities they had before. Players can have interrupts, cc's, stances, and other abilities for many levels without having a clue how they work because they've never had to use them.

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TOR is unique.

 

In every other MMO, new abilities are phased in with incremental changes to mob abilities and/or AI. TOR has no mob AI and the vast majority of mobs behave exactly the same from level 1 to 50. Characters get new abilities that might never be used because the player is having zero difficulty killing mobs with the abilities they had before. Players can have interrupts, cc's, stances, and other abilities for many levels without having a clue how they work because they've never had to use them.

 

until they come and cry, cause some story mode 'end boss' is killing them over and over and over, sometimes even with friends... and here they come on forums to learn they have stun, interrupt and KB abilities... not to mention gear and main stats.. and it's like 'wow, this is crazy new game now, thanks'.

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This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. With the internet and instant guides these days, some people use them before experiecing the gameplay first. Once you start to memorize the mechanics in a video game, then it will start to get easier and tedious.

 

In my opinion, this issues goes along with the fact that games are easier and more casual than in the 80's and early 90's. In most old school games, you are expected to die multiple times before you finish. These days some people get mad as soon as they die once.

 

Again... THIS.

 

Enough said.

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This entire different generation, they seem to forgot about the excitement of not knowing what comes next. Looking up the game and reading the strategies ruins the game for some people. ...

This is a weird philosophy to me.

 

"Already knowing the strategy for a fight" vs "Learning the strategy of a fight while dying over and over" is different from having the story itself spoiled.

 

If you and your friends want to figure out how to run a fight and are willing to persevere through some wipes, that is fine. As a matter of fact, a number of my friends did just that with the level 55 HM FPs when they first showed up, and were able to guess at the mechanics based on how they were wiping. And they were happy to do that.

 

But when you're talking about a pug group, it isn't courteous to stumble around in the dark causing expensive repair bills for everyone else. How is reading up on encounter mechanics before they step into an instance any different from someone else typing the strat in chat right before doing the fight?

 

Or is that considered a "spoiler" too?

 

Also, this talk of "different generation" is silly. I've been gaming since the 1970s, and I do enjoy surprises while gaming, especially in RPGs. But I will absolutely study a fight strat (if available) before going into an encounter because I want to be a more valuable member of the team.

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