Mace Windu vs Sidious

[LadyKulvax]

Easy, somehow the hero of tython finds a holocron and learns it, then is lost for 3000 years until Mace Wndu develops it again.

 

No I mean, we actually know how he invented it and everything, he literally made Vaapad from the ground up.

[ZahirS]

No I mean, we actually know how he invented it and everything, he literally made Vaapad from the ground up.

 

he borrowed different styles into Vapaad, he developed the stance he didn't "made it", that been said someone in the past could have replicated it (Hero of Tython)

Edited April 21, 2013 by ZahirS

[LadyKulvax]

Erm no, Windu got all the ideas from the creature called Vaapad, then he spent many years refining it with Sora Bulq, it was a state of mind he found through practice and meditation, it was his own imagination that created it.

[ZahirS]

Erm no, Windu got all the ideas from the creature called Vaapad, then he spent many years refining it with Sora Bulq, it was a state of mind he found through practice and meditation, it was his own imagination that created it.

 

Its both, He developed Vapaad by studying the creature of the planet spirq but also he devloped it from Juyo form.

 

Revan might aswell used Vapaad at some point.

[LadyKulvax]

Its both, He developed Vapaad by studying the creature of the planet spirq but also he devloped it from Juyo form.

 

Revan might aswell used Vapaad at some point.

 

It's a variation of Form VII, it's basis is explosive use of dark side energy, but that's about all they share.

 

Again, Windu invented Vaapad, it was his own imagination and refinement of duelling skill that allowed it's creation, not a holocron or whatever.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Its not like it matters, if they put Vaapad in SWTOR it would look no different then every other form which already look identical and only apply invisible stat changes.

 

They really took a terribly lazy rout with the lightsaber forms in this game.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Doctoglethorpe

[Aurbere]

It's pretty obvious Mace won. No matter where you look, the answer is clear- Mace beat Sidious. You can make the excuse that Sidious was holding back, but that simply is not the case. Take a close look at Sidious' face throughout the

. You can see that he is visibly struggling to hold Mace off.

 

But then we get to Sidious'

. Notice a complete change in Sidious' demeanor. If anything, I would say that he is holding back against Yoda, which speaks volumes of Mace's skills in lightsaber combat.

[Crawelc]

It's pretty obvious Mace won. No matter where you look, the answer is clear- Mace beat Sidious. You can make the excuse that Sidious was holding back, but that simply is not the case. Take a close look at Sidious' face throughout the

. You can see that he is visibly struggling to hold Mace off.

 

But then we get to Sidious'

. Notice a complete change in Sidious' demeanor. If anything, I would say that he is holding back against Yoda, which speaks volumes of Mace's skills in lightsaber combat.

 

[Aurbere]

 

As much as I would like to say he wasn't holding back, it is pretty obvious he was. He's laughing throughout the match. Yoda has a few good moments, but he wasn't able to win.

 

The novel clearly points out that Yoda was pushed to his limits and that Sidious had much more to give. That and we have a quote from Leland Chee stating that Yoda could not defeat Sidious. Watch the movies and you'll see only about three instances of Sidious actually looking as if he's in trouble. Most of the time he is laughing... not exactly something he did against Mace.

 

And here's the novel-

 

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

 

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

 

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

 

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

 

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

 

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

 

Finally, he saw the truth.

 

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

 

just--

 

didn't--

 

have it.

 

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

 

He had lost before he was born.

 

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

 

They had become new.

 

While the Jedi--

 

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

 

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

 

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

 

Basically, Yoda finally figures out that he can't win.

 

But can one explain why Sidious was cackling throughout their battle when he was visibly struggling against Mace? He obviously didn't consider Yoda a threat.

[Ventessel]

We've already mentioned how the movie makes him look to have thrown the fight much more then the book. He never does that "unlimited power" line in the book.

 

Really, it just comes down to how you chose to interpret it. I definitely agree that the movie implies he was toying with Mace, but the book less so (as in it gives space for either side to work) and I personally prefer to believe Mace was a match for him. I prefer characters are not too OP and actually have threats to them every now and then. I think Mace putting up a fight with Sidious and almost ruining his plans in the final hour makes Sidious a more interesting and respectable character, so I chose to believe thats how it went down rather then the more common belief that Sidious was just putting on a show and was never really threatened by anything. I think that makes him too godly and beyond any form of audience empathy.

Audience empathy? I hope you don't have empathy for a galaxy conquering, manipulative scumbag. Perhaps you meant sympathy? Even so, Sidious isn't a sympathetic character at all, nor should he be. He's Evil with a PhD in Diabolical Scheming.

I think mostly companions are nearly identical in roles to KOTOR more than luke, t7 is like t3, doc is like carth. and don't ever say again its based on obiwan, that chump ewan mcgregor spoiled the role old obi-wan did awesome.

Whoa, there, pal. Ewan did a superb job of portraying a younger Obi-Wan. He is a consummate actor and blended smoothly from Episode I into Episode IV. His performance was possibly the strongest in the entire Prequel Trilogy, along with Ian McDiarmid.

 

And Mace uses Vaapad. Vapaad doesn't even exist in this game. And couldn't really properly depict it anyways. The movie certainly completely failed to. Vaapad is supposed to be so complex its like watching the Tasmanian Devil turn into a miniature tornado.

The movie didn't need to "depict" Vaapad. It was implicit in Mace's style and speed. He was smooth and aggressive during his duel with Palpatine, and you can infer that he was definitely a master swordsman. The particulars of his style are largely irrelevant except in philosophical discussions of his ability to flirt with the Dark Side and channel his anger productively.

 

You can see the result of his philosophy and mental state with how he easily transitions from fighting ferociously into a calm standoff with Anakin and Palpatine. He's in control, but aggressive. That's basically Vaapad in a nutshell.

 

The description of his "whirlwind attack" is from a comic book. The author and illustrators have such a laughably poor grasp of swordplay that they make Hollywood choreographers look like veteran combat instructors. Vaapad is a combat philosophy that guided Mace Windu's use of Form VII, and he made personal refinements to the technique just as any master combatant does, developing his own repertoire.

[Ventessel]

Sidious was obviously holding back for the entirety of his fight with Mace Windu. Why?

 

He chose to fight him with a lightsaber, and only a lightsaber. Not once did he use the Force against Mace, because Sidious wanted a protracted fight, and he knew that Mace would be able to keep up and probably convincingly kick the crap out of him in a straight fight. But that's ok, because he needed that to happen for Anakin to reach that tipping point of rejecting the Jedi.

 

At any point he could have blasted Mace to pieces with the Force, just as he did with Yoda (who was stronger than Mace with the Force).

Edited April 23, 2013 by Ventessel

[LadyKulvax]

Sidious was obviously holding back for the entirety of his fight with Mace Windu. Why?

 

He chose to fight him with a lightsaber, and only a lightsaber. Not once did he use the Force against Mace, because Sidious wanted a protracted fight, and he knew that Mace would be able to keep up and probably convincingly kick the crap out of him in a straight fight. But that's ok, because he needed that to happen for Anakin to reach that tipping point of rejecting the Jedi.

 

At any point he could have blasted Mace to pieces with the Force, just as he did with Yoda (who was stronger than Mace with the Force).

 

He went from duelling to force prowess, it does not mean he wasn't outclassed by Windu.

[DarthAeonis]

i def think mace was moping the floor with him as well. ive always thought ppl give sidious way to much credit. "sidious is god, no one can beat him" yea ok... the fact is their like 40 yr fan base is the only reason all those Rotj ppl seem so godly. regardless.... mace clearly had the upper hand and i read someone compared yoda with mace, and u cant really do that. yea yoda was the grandmaster but that doesnt necessarily make him the strongest. def the oldest.... but thats the thing. yoda was old. hella old. sidous had always been aware of yoda and im sure made plans to make it so he's stronger than him. after all their both inquisitor class character while mace is a jk character so u cant compare the two in the same light. they fight to differently. and theres no reason to reiterate the perks of mace so i think its very plausible that in a close quarters fight mace can beat sidious. mace was a ****** afterall.

[Selenial]

Aubere, forgive me if I'm Wrong here, but that doesn't prove Mace more powerful thancYoda, and it speaks more for his force of will than saber prowess....

 

Vapaad basically put draws on the opponents dark side energy, feeds on it... But a lot of Jedi would easily fall to the darkside if duelling sidious, using this form, as the sheer nexus of dark side energy in that man would be too much for a Jedi to handle.

Hell, to a point, I think that's why Mace was so intent on killing him, he felt the power sidious had achieved when furling him and wanted him dead...

Vapaad and his force of will were what made him the only Jedi able to stand up to sidious IMO.

[Aurbere]

Aubere, forgive me if I'm Wrong here, but that doesn't prove Mace more powerful thancYoda, and it speaks more for his force of will than saber prowess....

 

Vapaad basically put draws on the opponents dark side energy, feeds on it... But a lot of Jedi would easily fall to the darkside if duelling sidious, using this form, as the sheer nexus of dark side energy in that man would be too much for a Jedi to handle.

Hell, to a point, I think that's why Mace was so intent on killing him, he felt the power sidious had achieved when furling him and wanted him dead...

Vapaad and his force of will were what made him the only Jedi able to stand up to sidious IMO.

 

I never said that Mace Windu was more powerful than Yoda, as that is simply not the case. However, in that moment, he was the better duelist. Having fully given himself to Vaapad, Mace Windu was able to defeat Sidious in pure lightsaber combat.

 

You are correct, though. Mace Windu's battle against Sidious proved his devotion to the Light Side, but I feel that he would have fallen had he killed Sidious.

 

But my point was that Sidious was visibly struggling against Mace Windu in pure lightsaber combat. However, as we saw in his battle with Yoda, when Sidious brought all of his tools to bear, he couldn't be defeated. I have no doubt that that battle would have played out the same way had Mace Windu battled him in the Senate chambers. As we see at the end of the battle, Sidious' Force lightning was physically bending Mace Windu's lightsaber. This indicates that Sidious could have bested Windu in a full battle, but it is obvious that Mace Windu is the better duelist.

 

Basically, while Yoda is Mace Windu's superior in lightsaber combat and Force abilities*, when it comes down to fighting Dark Side force users, Mace Windu is better than Yoda in pure lightsaber combat.

 

*Mace Windu even admits this in Dark Rendezvous.

[Simbr]

Windu died, Sidious became Emperor.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Windu died, Sidious became Emperor.

 

Sidious got help. After surrendering.

 

I can oversimplify things too.

[JamieKirby]

Guys, I hope you know Darth Sidious was stalling the fight and waiting for Anakin to come, he needed Anakin to intervene, to give in to the darkside and all that.

 

Just like, what Luke did on Return of the Jedi, I am thinking he might have been a match for the Emperor in a fight at the very least, but he came there to save his father, so he did the same thing that the Emperor did in Episode III, tempt him into doing what he wanted him to do.

Edited April 24, 2013 by JamieKirby

[BellsofGuilt]

Sidious was obviously holding back for the entirety of his fight with Mace Windu. Why?

 

He chose to fight him with a lightsaber, and only a lightsaber. Not once did he use the Force against Mace, because Sidious wanted a protracted fight, and he knew that Mace would be able to keep up and probably convincingly kick the crap out of him in a straight fight. But that's ok, because he needed that to happen for Anakin to reach that tipping point of rejecting the Jedi.

 

At any point he could have blasted Mace to pieces with the Force, just as he did with Yoda (who was stronger than Mace with the Force).

 

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be pulling this out of your bum. There is nothing in the movie that suggests or hints that Sidious feigned weakness in his fight with Windu. If you actually go to the source and watch that scene in its entirety, you'll see that Mace Windu clearly overpowered Sidious. Also, Sidious used Force Lightning twice; Windu fell prey to it the second time only because Anakin cut off his arm and so was not able to defend himself.

Edited April 25, 2013 by BellsofGuilt

[Girdeux]

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be pulling this out of your bum. There is nothing in the movie that suggests or hints that Sidious feigned weakness in his fight with Windu. If you actually go to the source and watch that scene in its entirety, you'll see that Mace Windu clearly overpowered Sidious. Also, Sidious used Force Lightning twice; Windu fell prey to it the second time only because Anakin cut off his arm and so was not able to defend himself.

 

He is making it up. Lucas already went into it in the DVD commentary stating Sidious was not backing down and was trying to kill Windu the entire time but couldnt.

[Doctoglethorpe]

He is making it up. Lucas already went into it in the DVD commentary stating Sidious was not backing down and was trying to kill Windu the entire time but couldnt.

 

O_o Really now? Man if thats true then thats one more point on the long list of reasons why the movie sucked. I've been under the assumption the author of the book took some liberties with that scene (liberties I approve of) but it sounds like the movie just failed to properly portray the intentions. Of course, all things considered that isn't the least bit surprising since just about every scene in the movie has that issue. This makes me wonder if maybe the author took less liberties then I thought and the book really is much closer to what Lucas originally scripted then what we have in the movie.

 

Any link to this commentary? I tried youtube but came up empty.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Doctoglethorpe

[JamieKirby]

He is making it up. Lucas already went into it in the DVD commentary stating Sidious was not backing down and was trying to kill Windu the entire time but couldnt.

 

Sorry, but he isn't, Sidious was a powerful force user, yet he stuck to using the lightsaber alone, dispatched the other 3-4? Jedi Masters withins of each other and throughout the fight, he brought visions of Anakin's Wife in labor, though it looked like she was dying, it was a lot of deception and he was feigning defeat with Windu, like Luke was with the Emperor ROTJ.

 

In the end Sidious was holding back, I never understand how people can't see that...

[Darevsool]

it's called acting. Watch the clip again, it's all over youtube.

Sidious was play-acting a role.

Let's break it down into phases.

 

4 jedi against him. he has to take this part seriously and he kills 3 of the masters in under 10 seconds. he does this because even as good as he is, with 4-1 odds there are lots of different variables and the chance of an "accident" is just too great.

 

Windu vs. Sidious: At this point Sidious can relax a bit, and you can see it in the choreography. he has to appear weak so that when Anakin does arrive he sees Palpatine in the submissive and Windu as the victor. Palpatine does this on purpose, he wants Anakin to choose him over the jedi. He needs to have Anakin "rescue" him from the "evil jedi" mace windu in order to make the final transition from light to dark.

 

The fight between Windu and Palpatine was never about Windu and Palpatine. It was always about Anakin and forcing him to choose.

 

If Anakin had chosen Windu, Palpatine would have killed them both in an instant and moved on.

[FuryoftheStars]

 

4 jedi against him. he has to take this part seriously and he kills 3 of the masters in under 10 seconds.

 

Far as I'm concerned, he managed to do this because he had a power greater than even the Force backing him up for those three...

 

...it's called "Hollywood".

 

If there indeed was a commentary from GL stating how the fight went down, then that is the truth.

[Kaedusz]

There is nothing in the movie that suggests or hints that Sidious feigned weakness in his fight with Windu..

 

Yes there is.He fell down exactly when Anakin came.Also while they were talking he was watching at Anakin in an interesting way several times to see his reactions.

 

The whole thing was a show aimed at turning Anakin to the Dark Side.Windu is nothing compared to Sidious.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Kaedusz