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A question for veteran MMOers...


Machine-Elf

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Exactly. The bottleneck seems to be at the tank position. I've been playing both tanks and healers the past few weeks to try and get a feel for exactly which role is in the most demand and I have to say it's the tanks. Tanks are really an instant que for me, my healer can take a few minutes, my DPS can go hours without a que.
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it might make queues slightly shorter during off hours, since it would combine time zones, but it wouldn't overall shorten wait times.

 

as a healer, I tend to get either fast or instant pops during prime time. in off times, it may take 10-15 minutes which incidentally, is no different from my experiences in WoW. tank gets instant queues during prime time, faster, but not always during off time, because sometimes, I get bottlenecked via healer.

 

so my conclusion? no thanks to cross server queues, because they won't bring all that much improvement, but they will over time encourage more people to be ******s in groups, because ignore will not have as much effect on their queue times anymore, like it can now

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Yeah, the main problem is the ratio between the roles that are queuing. The ratio Tank : Heals : DPS is probably quite similar on all servers, so making group finder queues cross-server won't change much, if anything.

 

Example:

 

[server A] Tank : Heal : DPS - 1 : 2 : 5

[server B] Tank : Heal : DPS - 2 : 3 : 12 (1: 1.5 : 6)

[server C] Tank : Heal : DPS - 2 : 4 : 9 (1 : 2 : 4.5)

 

Would give you a cross-server ratio of 5 : 9 : 26 (1 : 1.8 : 5.2)

 

(Group finder assembles groups in ratio 1 : 1 : 2)

 

 

because they won't bring all that much improvement, but they will over time encourage more people to be ******s in groups, because ignore will not have as much effect on their queue times anymore, like it can now

 

Excellent point. Cross-server group finder would have to come with other features being cross-server, too.

Edited by KyaniteD
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Cross server queues would only help in any way, if there were at least one server, where Tanks actually need to wait till they can go. As long as tanks always get instant invites, a cross server queue will not solve any problem (but create some).
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Would the queue time in SWTOR be practically non-existent -- as in, instantaneous -- if it were done cross-server?

 

It might present a marginal improvement (though I doubt it, at present server activity levels)... but it brings it's own issues to the table. Not worth the investment of effort IMO. Cross-server does not address class balance (as has been pointed out above) it only addresses small populations on servers being aggregated for more pops in the queue (which is why WoW added cross server realm play.. to hide how dead many of their servers are without closing and consolidating servers).

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I'm wondering if the shortage of tanks is made worse by SWTOR's relatively small group size. 4 players per group is very low and means that we are relying on one quarter of the people queuing being able and willing to tank. Compare that with a group size of 6, say. If we assume that encounters are balanced to need one tank per group, a group size of 6 would have meant that the tank shortage would be less of a problem.
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Would the queue time in SWTOR be practically non-existent -- as in, instantaneous -- if it were done cross-server?

 

For PvE No, it would be the same except on the hours when the server is almost completely dead. The PvE queue times are driven by the class ratios. DPS are played far more than anything else so DPS waits longer.

 

For PvP you might see reductions, but I don't know how PvP queues work.

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I'm wondering if the shortage of tanks is made worse by SWTOR's relatively small group size. 4 players per group is very low and means that we are relying on one quarter of the people queuing being able and willing to tank. Compare that with a group size of 6, say. If we assume that encounters are balanced to need one tank per group, a group size of 6 would have meant that the tank shortage would be less of a problem.

 

I think that the shortage of tanks has a lot more to do with a rather large portion of the newer generation of the MMO crowd who predominantly do not want the responsibility of tanking or healing.

 

Being good at DPS is easy.

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I'm wondering if the shortage of tanks is made worse by SWTOR's relatively small group size. 4 players per group is very low and means that we are relying on one quarter of the people queuing being able and willing to tank. Compare that with a group size of 6, say. If we assume that encounters are balanced to need one tank per group, a group size of 6 would have meant that the tank shortage would be less of a problem.

 

its definitely a big part of it. the other part of it is tanking mechanics in TOR. at a very minimum, I would really appreciate it if I could have some sort of additional indication of how much threat I have on mobs as well as how much threat my group members, especially healer are generating so that I could time taunts and such a little better. it can be challenging to see everything that's going on while half your screen is blocked by a group in front of your face that you are trying to hold on you and visually quickly gauge what to pull and what to leave along for dps to deal with.

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I think that the shortage of tanks has a lot more to do with a rather large portion of the newer generation of the MMO crowd who predominantly do not want the responsibility of tanking or healing.

 

Being good at DPS is easy.

 

I agree with this assessment.

 

I do feel the newer generation of MMO players just want to log in and blow crap up while someone else holds agro and heals them. OK.. dps are bad at not pulling agro off the tanks sometimes.... and over work the healers... but I think you know what I mean.

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Being a good DPS in this game isn't easy. Being a non-stupid DPS is easy, but that doesn't make one a good DPS in this game.

 

To the OP's point, cross-server queues would only help queue times if class balance is radically different server-to-server. That's tough for us to know, but one would imagine if DPS are getting insta-queues while tanks and healers get long waits on some servers, we'd have heard about it.

 

What will really help queue times is if:

 

1) More people roll tanks and healers

2) Everyone learns to behave properly in a group

 

The first is obvious - getting more people playing the rare roles means more of them to queue.

 

The second is a bit less obvious. Many tanks and healers simply refuse to queue or queue only minimally because so many other players are really, really bad. If players in groups expended reasonable effort to play their role properly and behave well in groups, we might see more tanks and healers queue multiple times per day.

 

Notice I didn't say anything about bribing tanks and healers. As a player who plays almost exclusively tanks and healers, I don't believe that will do any good. Put otherwise, I don't think EA would be willing to attach sufficient reward to the task to overcome the bad behavior and poor execution I have to deal with in groups.

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No

 

because your relative ratio of each role would stay pretty much the same.

 

I think that the shortage of tanks has a lot more to do with a rather large portion of the newer generation of the MMO crowd who predominantly do not want the responsibility of tanking or healing.

 

Being good at DPS is easy.

No, it is not. Doing DPS is easy because it's a role with zero responsibility if you're doing it terribly and people are unlikely to notice unless you're so bad that fights take impossibly long. Doing good DPS takes skill and attention, like any role.

 

Likewise, neither Tanking nor Healing is difficult if the rest of your group knows what they're doing. Yes, it takes planning, thinking, practice, knowledge of the content, understanding of your abilities / character / role ... etc. So does good DPS.

 

No role in SWTOR is so complicated that it stands out as requiring more from a player than another role. It's just an issue of what particular qualities / skills are emphasized.

 

The reason people shy away from Tank / Heal roles is because:

  • There's only 1 of you in a FP, so if you mess up, you basically doom everyone. DPS that's low can be covered by the other DPS/Tank being high.
  • They require more foreknowledge of the content to do their job at full effectiveness. A confused Tank/Heals often doesn't work at full power. A confused DPS that's good at executing their cycle can produce acceptable results if they just follow the lead of the rest of the group.
  • There's less gear pressure. A tank going into a new FP tier badly under-geared will explode and give the healer nightmares and require marking CC every pull. A healer may find themselves simply unable to keep the group alive. A DPS who's undergeared can still contribute something and get carried along while they gear up.

 

Basically, people don't like failing, and it's easier for inexperienced players to "not fail" by queuing DPS. It's a role with low perceived pressure that can be covered by other group members while you learn. People feel safe choosing DPS when inexperienced, tired, or new to an area of content.

 

Overall, it's not "them dam kids" and their lack of interest in responsibility. It's the natural, human-nature response of "failing sucks". Because MMO players — especially Group Finder players — are usually not the most kind or patient crowd, people quickly find the safest role to settle in to.

Edited by SW_display_name
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No

 

because your relative ratio of each role would stay pretty much the same.

 

No, it is not.

 

Being good at DPS is indeed easy. Of course there are people that are terrible at it. The fact that it is easy does not mean that there are some that will still fail.

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I'm wondering if the shortage of tanks is made worse by SWTOR's relatively small group size. 4 players per group is very low and means that we are relying on one quarter of the people queuing being able and willing to tank. Compare that with a group size of 6, say. If we assume that encounters are balanced to need one tank per group, a group size of 6 would have meant that the tank shortage would be less of a problem.

 

I've been thinking this from the beginning. Other games like WoW and Rift both have 3 DPS per group and they still have long queue times. Why Bioware decided to only have 2 DPS per group is beyond me...

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Being good at DPS is indeed easy. Of course there are people that are terrible at it. The fact that it is easy does not mean that there are some that will still fail.
Again: being good at DPS is no easier or harder than being good at tanking or healing. They require different mindsets and skill sets, so one role may seem easier to a person than another. But doing good DPS is not 'easy'.

 

You are basically saying, "playing SWTOR is easy". Which may be a fair assessment, but that isn't specific to DPS. It's just an easy prejudice people sling around in MMOs.

 

In many situations, it's actually easier to do good tanking or good healing. DPS is "always on" — any time a DPS isn't performing at full capacity, they're not doing their job as well as possible. Whereas during lull phases or low-damage phases a tank/healer can practically go AFK without hurting anything.

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For higher level flashpoints? Nope, even in WoW, queue times can be very long for dps. I think they would probably be shorter at low levels, though, and at non-peak hours. I think the only real drawback to being limited by server is that you don't have access to other time zone queuing.

It's because of what someone else said, dps bottleneck. WoW actually put an incentive system in where you got extra rewards for queuing as whatever roll was in short supply (you would see it when you opened the group finder).

 

On the other hand, since PVP doesn't do a role check, warzone queues would be faster.

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From experience of cross realm crap in other MMOs, it makes little difference. Because the ratio of tanks/healers/dps is still about the same on every server. All it means is you have 1000 dps without a tank or healer, instead of 100...

 

It might help PVP, but the down side is cross server groups tend to lower the quality of the community (it pretty much ruined WOW's), because some servers are full of scum and your forced to put up with them, which is worse.

Edited by NasherUK
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Again: being good at DPS is no easier or harder than being good at tanking or healing. They require different mindsets and skill sets, so one role may seem easier to a person than another. But doing good DPS is not 'easy'.

 

You are basically saying, "playing SWTOR is easy". Which may be a fair assessment, but that isn't specific to DPS. It's just an easy prejudice people sling around in MMOs.

 

In many situations, it's actually easier to do good tanking or good healing. DPS is "always on" — any time a DPS isn't performing at full capacity, they're not doing their job as well as possible. Whereas during lull phases or low-damage phases a tank/healer can practically go AFK without hurting anything.

 

No matter how you try to pretty it up, being DPS is very easy work compared to the responsibility of tanking and healing. That is not saying anything bad about folks who choose to DPS for a main character. Many don't choose DPS because that is all that they can handle. But it goes without saying that there are a lot of players who DPS because it is easy and does not require the level of responsibility as healing or tanking.

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You are not substantiating your claims at all. You're just saying, "I say this about DPS. Therefore, it is true".

 

Well, I say it is not true. I've played all 3 roles in SWTOR and in other MMOs. "Responsibility" does not equate to "difficulty" because responsibility is an issue which gradually relaxes as:

  • you become familiar with the content
  • you become familiar with what instructions to give others
  • you become familiar with the people you're working with

 

One role or another may "spike" in difficulty during initial learning phases, but once everyone understands what's going on, the difficulty of executing any given role well more-or-less balances out.

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You are not substantiating your claims at all. You're just saying, "I say this about DPS. Therefore, it is true".

 

Well, I say it is not true. I've played all 3 roles in SWTOR and in other MMOs. "Responsibility" does not equate to "difficulty" because responsibility is an issue which gradually relaxes as:

  • you become familiar with the content
  • you become familiar with what instructions to give others
  • you become familiar with the people you're working with

 

One role or another may "spike" in difficulty during initial learning phases, but once everyone understands what's going on, the difficulty of executing any given role well more-or-less balances out.

 

true. however.

 

dps making mistakes is not usually as deadly as tank/healer making mistakes. that said... in TOR at least dps when played properly definitely has more responsibility then in some of the other games I played.

 

CC is used. interrupts are more important. and its dps's job to pick up straggler mobs and kill them.

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You are not substantiating your claims at all. You're just saying, "I say this about DPS. Therefore, it is true".

 

Well, I say it is not true. I've played all 3 roles in SWTOR and in other MMOs. "Responsibility" does not equate to "difficulty" because responsibility is an issue which gradually relaxes as:

  • you become familiar with the content
  • you become familiar with what instructions to give others
  • you become familiar with the people you're working with

 

One role or another may "spike" in difficulty during initial learning phases, but once everyone understands what's going on, the difficulty of executing any given role well more-or-less balances out.

 

I am sorry that I have seemed to draw your ire. I have nothing against DPSers. My co-main is a Commando who can burn things down with the best of them. That is the character that I love to play when I want to take it easy in an Op or a FP. It doesn't take from the fact that DPS is an easier role. It takes more skill to keep aggro than it does to spam damage abilities at a single or AOE targets. It also takes more skill to keep a team of players healed than it does to keep from drawing aggro.

 

I am not slighting DPSers. I am offering an explanation as to why there are so many of them.

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