Thanks Bioware- PvP is looking better!

[LanceCorporalDan]

Bolster has effectively removed the gear grind (and gap) from PvP. While this pisses off a lot of forum warriors, keep in mind that they represent a very small and vocal minority of the overall player base. At least on my server, PvP has a ton of new faces at all levels, which is a good thing.

 

95% of the whines I read about bolster come from players who

- Don't know how their class works

- Don't know how other classes work

- Can't figure out how to use spellcheck

- Are generally clueless

 

If that's the "general consensus" on the state of bolster, then you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Bolster shouldn't really be in 55 in my opinion.

 

Nor should it grant expertise in sub 55 since expertise has been stripped from sub 55 gear.

[Kirtastropohe]

Yep...pvp is better. All it took was two major patches (and I'm sure everything won't be fixed after Tuesday's patch) plus the removal of Exp and associated making of various gear and crystals useless. Simple, perfect, and everything is great. Oh wait, it's not great.

 

PVE gear reigning king. Having to use empty mod slots. Damage and healing way too high compared to pre 2.0. Reduced TTK....and not so much as a roadmap as to how to make sense of it all and figure out the best way to gear. That's success.

 

I'm not a bad PvPer, and I'm certainly not elite. I don't find it fun, at all, to pvp right now. Too many exploits and idiotic things going on. Can't see how that's a good thing to turn off some of your existing base. I am a subscriber, and I haven't played this game since the last fail patch. Maybe these changes will turn F2Pers into subscribers, but they better have a whole heck of a lot of new ones to make up for those existing players getting fed up and leaving.

 

 

PVP

[Karkais]

Just posting that I agree with the OP in that pvp is looking better. I am having fun at lvl 55 pvp, although the matches don't seem to pop up as often as <55 but thats ok.

 

I can never consider MMO pvp as esport, sorry. The idea sounds ludicrous to me due to latency. SWTOR pvp is just innocent fun to me.

 

I don't know about "general consensus" unless that means certain small but loud percentage of forum posters..

Edited April 20, 2013 by Karkais

[Phrase]

 

I can never consider MMO pvp as esport, sorry...SWTOR pvp is just innocent fun to me.

 

Sig worthy quote right there.

[amerciasmexican]

To bad pvp is still a gear grind, with just as much gear gap as before. PvE gear has been kicking PvP gear in the face. Its no longer who can spam WZ's all day and keep their sanity it's now who has the most free time to grind underworld gear+. I would grind WZ's more if the pvp gear actually had new cosmetics but its the EXACT same armor as the PvE sets just different colors? i think some people at Bioware/EA or whoever is in charge of designs to be replaced since they lack the basic creativity of a child

 

P.S.: it practically requires you to run in premade groups to stand a chance now

Edited April 20, 2013 by amerciasmexican

[Dencre]

pvp sucks atm and bolster is trash

[TheronFett]

Bolster shouldn't really be in 55 in my opinion.

 

Nor should it grant expertise in sub 55 since expertise has been stripped from sub 55 gear.

 

Bolster has a place @ 55 just as it does for other levels. The purpose is to level the playing field as far as base stats are concerned so that the gear gap remains as small as possible. No, the system is not perfect and needs some tweaks. But it's not broken as a lot of derps on these forums are saying either. Their poor play has become obvious, and since they refuse to accept that they're bad players, they blame the system.

[FromAbove]

For this:

 

Bolster has effectively removed the gear grind (and gap) from PvP. While this pisses off a lot of forum warriors, keep in mind that they represent a very small and vocal minority of the overall player base...

 

Please read this:

 

I can't agree with OP.

 

I'll note that I'm of the crowd that prefers to have no gear disparity, like in GW2, and would prefer a cosmetics only method. Though, I do not mind gear that gives bonuses either, provided they aren't extreme and the grind to get competitive gear isn't overwhelming.

 

That said- that's not what we got this patch, and that's not why people are mad.

 

We got a mess- between crafting missions not working correctly, wealthy missions that give less than abundants, naked bolster, expertise gear screwing bolster, old expertise gear being stripped of stats, pve gear being better and people taking mods or augments out of gear in order to gain bonuses over people who are in what should be min/max'd gear.

 

This isn't about fair play, or balanced pvp- this is about this patch being an utter mess. Games shouldn't be a jumble where things literally randomly buff your stats up- there needs to be logic and straight forwardness enough that someone can figure out 'if I add a mod with crit on it, I'll get more crit'.

 

I don't think this should need to be explained, but somehow there's people here who don't get that and just say 'ha, no more gear difference, no more crutch lulz!!' that's not the issue at all. Worst part is- this is what everyone looking at this xpac, which was seen by many as this game's chance to save it's reputation, is showcasing to everyone watching.

 

Not good at all.

 

I don't like the new Bolster system because it's a sloppy, semi-arbitrary mess. I'd been saving up Comms prior to hitting 55 to splash out on a Conqueror main-hand. Then I went into a WZ and compared my stats with the Conqueror to an orange with Makeb purples and discovered that the orange with inferior components was superior in every way (actually, the Conq gun may have given me literally two more points of Expertise--can't remember which had me at 1999 and which had me at 2001). Then I removed the mod and enhancement from the PvP weapon and suddenly it was better than the orange, although I did lose a little Expertise. That's completely absurd. Like fungihoujo, I can't understand how people are defending something that's demonstrably broken.

 

And calling the Bolster situation 'bugged,' as a lot of people seem to want to do, to me strains the definition of a bug. Right after 2.0 came out, sometimes I had to /logout to exit the WZ scoreboard screen. Okay, fair enough, that's the kind of random bug that you can expect in the wake of an expansion. Spotting the statistical chaos new-Bolster has created takes literally a minute--all you have to do is pop a WZ and screw around with your gear. It was a designed system. That system doesn't work. You might like the aim behind new-Bolster (I'm indifferent--I like more equality for fresh 55s, but I also like having something to strive for), but in its present state it's a mess. It's indefensible.

 

If they want to do something like give everyone in a WZ a flat number of Stat points to spend however they like and just make the gear cosmetic, I'm okay with that. But then they need to start spamming out lots and lots of new armor sets so people have goals.

[LydMekk]

For my part, playing almost all ACs, the new PVP system seems ok balanced atm.

 

 

For all you ney-saysers: we need bolster. how could you else place an lvl15 and a lvl 45 in the same match and expect some fairness? stop saying that bolster must go.

[Hawk-Firestorm]

I'm going to take it the OP is one of the Stealth unit gank squads now running about the game.

 

Highly Fun for those doing it not so much on the receiving end.

 

Bioware has completely and utterly made a pigs ear of PVP.

 

They have utterly thrown out any game balance out the window, totally failed to see and anticipate what effect the new changes would have especially alacrity would have on stealth classes which in the case of OPS/Smugler were already OP and needed to be rained in, now you have Gank squads of them running about, I run one even at lev 12 it controls the battlefield for my team.

 

Ontop of that they got Big number syndrome increased Damage output immensely, as well as healing which already was showing issues when one team had several healers on, because the maching system makes ZERO attempt to form even and fair teams that looks at players Specs.

 

Nor did they think about what would happen to the overall game pace and the effect it would have on gameplay with Zerging Ganking and the increased DMG output, or take any measures to negate this by giving defensive bonus's to players being enganged by many individuals to stop gank squads and promote spread out and fair combat, and a matching system that actually forms fair teams in the first place, and stops teams of all one unit type and teams with no healers v teams with many etc.

 

Bioware basically ignored the problems in the design of the current system and put in changes that exagerated existing ones to the point it pushed everything over the tipping point.

 

Result?

 

Simple you have gank squads of Stealth and Sents etc running about in packs insta poping everyone, and the games pace has gone insane, and for unit types that have light armour and can't attack on the move, which in pvp is a insane design itself it makes them even more vunerable to classes that aren't especially stealth.

 

They said HEY! we changed the shields to try compensate, sadly not every class has them classes with temp shields like sages get the shaft because now their Force armour is nigh on worthless, while those classes with Shield gens come out on top, because their both mobile and can attack on the move and have active dmg reduction and Heavy armour to boot.

 

Expertise was a noble idea to try combat the game pace but it failed and has caused immense issues itself, the whole system needs ripping out and reworking and ALOT of testing before dumping it live.

 

Seriously bad engineering and design.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Hawk-Firestorm

[FromAbove]

For my part, playing almost all ACs, the new PVP system seems ok balanced atm.

 

 

For all you ney-saysers: we need bolster. how could you else place an lvl15 and a lvl 45 in the same match and expect some fairness? stop saying that bolster must go.

 

I don't know that I've seen that many people saying that Bolster needs to go. We had Bolster before the patch--it was just different. 15s and 45s could be in WZs together and though the 45s would have quite a few advantages (more abilities and allocated skill points, implants) knowledgeable 15s could still very much be competitive.

 

My impression has been that most objections are to the way the new form of the system has been implemented, not to the idea itself. That's definitely my position. The reason people are saying to "roll back" to the old system is just because the new one screws up stats so badly that it's frustrating to play. It needs more work.

[Hawk-Firestorm]

I don't know that I've seen that many people saying that Bolster needs to go. We had Bolster before the patch--it was just different. 15s and 45s could be in WZs together and though the 45s would have quite a few advantages (more abilities and allocated skill points, implants) knowledgeable 15s could still very much be competitive.

 

My impression has been that most objections are to the way the new form of the system has been implemented, not to the idea itself. That's definitely my position. The reason people are saying to "roll back" to the old system is just because the new one screws up stats so badly that it's frustrating to play. It needs more work.

 

Bolster doesn't need to go, but however you either have to take the approach of it bolsters everyone to the same point and them its about player skill and go with one set of armour for anything PVE and PVP, which overall has its appeal, or you try cater for the dedicated PVP players would want different armour sets and a edge it gives them in combat.

 

That unfortunately causes alot of problems, the biggest problem is Bioware is trying to do both and you can't its either or design wise they need to get thier heads out of the sand and choose.

 

But by far the biggest problem in PVP is the complete lack of any MAtching system that builds Fair teams and actually takes into consideration players specs such as healing etc to form PVP teams, players levels etc to form fair teams in the first place which is a far bigger problem than bolster, which was biowares lazy solution to the problem.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Hawk-Firestorm

[DeadDogBarking]

I was loving PvP with my New Merc abilities from 50-55, and after the initial issues with 8000k hits over and over from nude jedi and snipers, I thought there was a really great path. I have spent 2days at 55, and I am really confused. Almost every game win or loss is a total steam role. I ran up against COVENANT and mistakenly thought the next game was against them too. No, same results with ought a premade "less time stunned LOL" and then the next couple of games flipped the other way. I can not say why because their is a more level playing field with the bolster (ie we ALL live longer), but what I am noticing is the level of frustration amongst players on the loosing side. I never blame anybody on my side, but I have typed off frustration about being ganked at spawn points or just being stun and killed rinse repeat. I will also say I should feel some satisfaction at getting over 25 kills and over 10 medals (might be low for others, but I try) then I find out I am the lowest on my team, but over the highest on the other team by 5 medals and 20 kills. Yes they only had 5 kills for high total, and we were a pug. This has been the story of 55, but it is only 2 days. The bolster is a perfect direction, but the equaling out of process has taken the ability away for the really good players to make a difference or at least sill allow them to shine even if lacking in experienced team mates. Also without the major holes created by lack of experience or equipment (everyone starts somewhere) there is no longer the ability to create a break in the other teams defense. So once a team is looses 2 player to spawn transition it is now hard to catch back up.

 

Where will this go? I hope a big push into the world of non-mmo tactics. Before folks start the name calling let me explain. I am not a longtime MMO player and what I have noticed is tactics that have in the past revolved more around tried and true in game methods of play, but necessarily around real military tactics. Yes you still use line of sight and try to have layered first second and third line defense to damage then support (tank, DPS, heal). It is executed like parking lot basketball, and still revolved around the talent. It is a blast. COme on we have an argument over using the terms grass and snow on one map with two different directions depending on your factions with very experienced players not understanding that North, South, East and West will always be the same on all maps. Map reading is fundemantal to all strategy . Also to break the balance issue, there may need to some growth in the willingness for more complex methods of communication to develop in game. I saw more in the sub 55, no it is not because everyone is on Vent. I think there is a feeling of this is how it has worked and why should I have to explain something so simple to somebody who is obviously only going to hold me back. The only answer is because the game has changed and the wins now revolve around keeping your mob bigger than their mob.

 

Is this fun, only time will tell.

 

OOPS no room to talk about not noticing the difference between the euipment I choose and how it logically affects my stats.

[FromAbove]

Bolster doesn't need to go, but however you either have to take the approach of it bolsters everyone to the same point and them its about player skill and go with one set of armour for anything PVE and PVP, which overall has its appeal, or you try cater for the dedicated PVP players would want different armour sets and a edge it gives them in combat.

 

That unfortunately causes alot of problems, the biggest problem is Bioware is trying to do both and you can't its either or design wise they need to get thier heads out of the sand and choose.

 

But by far the biggest problem in PVP is the complete lack of any MAtching system that builds Fair teams and actually takes into consideration players specs such as healing etc to form PVP teams, players levels etc to form fair teams in the first place which is a far bigger problem than bolster, which was biowares lazy solution to the problem.

 

I think I agree with pretty much all of that. I suggested in an earlier post doing a flat stat allocation thing for PvP (or basically like saveable PvP specs for both skills and stats) and make armor just a cosmetic choice almost jokingly but it's starting to sound better to me. MAYBE consider giving small stat bumps for getting achievements? I dunno.

 

I think balanced teams would be worth the longer queue times. Not a lot of things are to me, but that would be one. My impression has always been that player-level isn't actually that huge a deal, especially with the new (and welcome) 3-tier system, so queues shouldn't be completely terrible.

 

Only thing I'd say in partial disagreement is that I feel like fixing Bolster stat-shenanigans should be easier because it wouldn't involve implementing a new system, so it can be prioritized. Having said that, with a ground-finder already in the game, getting teams balanced at least by class shouldn't be that hard, right?

[FromAbove]

I can not say why because their is a more level playing field with the bolster (ie we ALL live longer), but what I am noticing is the level of frustration amongst players on the loosing side. I never blame anybody on my side, but I have typed off frustration about being ganked at spawn points or just being stun and killed rinse repeat. I will also say I should feel some satisfaction at getting over 25 kills and over 10 medals (might be low for others, but I try) then I find out I am the lowest on my team, but over the highest on the other team by 5 medals and 20 kills. Yes they only had 5 kills for high total, and we were a pug. This has been the story of 55, but it is only 2 days. The bolster is a perfect direction, but the equaling out of process has taken the ability away for the really good players to make a difference or at least sill allow them to shine even if lacking in experienced team mates.

 

Yeah, the frustration thing with hugely imbalanced kill tallies is very real. Someone brought it up on a nerf-heals thread too and basically took the position that if you're in a pug with no healers against any team with 2-3, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Genttry]

Thank you all for the posts. Despite my grammar inconsistencies per previous disagreement with the guy who is awesome at grammar, I think we are developing a good thread that contradicts all of the whine posts I see in this particular forum. I actually rely on good writing in my profession as a patent attorney. My semi-trolling of whats-his-name and just a couple others aside, I think our issue rises to the top...the new bolster system, while flawed in cerrtain cases, is a step forward.

 

Of course, this is a subjective opinion. I still would like to see the model that WoW uses- 3 v 3 - as an esport in SWTOR. Maybe tt is because I'm bored with the ridiculous amount of billable hours I have to put in for my job. Maybe it is because I really want this game to succeed post- FTP and 2.0. I'm not sure. In any case, I like the new changes. It isn't quite 50/50 yet for people in support of my premise, but I am reinvigorated by the positive responses that i didn't anticipate. I don't have to troll dumb "as ses" anymore to get my point across- no more selective quotes, no more feigning to tards- lol at that guy I watched the clip for. Actually, Kudos to him for getting me to watch that. I guess i am the dumb a s s on that one. He's probably Dean of the Dartmouth English Department, but I still invite him to participate in the AJ discussion I will post soon. If he has the ranking to post... Surely, during the last ten years he played WoW and, since he is a "come at me" kind of guy, he played WoW at glad level. Or, in the alternative, he never stooped so low to play WoW and is simply a "come at me kind of guy." Please join my post if you have privileges there. We may get a cold reception for the simple fact that it is SWTOR, not WoW.

 

Let's get a fair assessment of this 2.0 sans whining. If it is no good, then it is no good. But I personally, at first blush, think it is a step in the right direction. .

 

I, like many others, want this game to do well. I, and we, have from the start, I suspect, wanted it to do well. The bolster system has problems but let us make one positive post in the PvP forum. I appologize for making fun of the guy who claims to be the best healer on his server. I also appologize for making snarky comments in a few of my other posts.

 

To Wit:

 

(1) How can bolster be fixed for those of you who are serious about end-game pvp (excluding the glaring obvious problems that bioware proposes to fix)

 

(2) What do you think about an arena-style system of 3 v 3 and 5 v 5 for SWTOR?

 

Thanks in advance! I wiill, from this point on, ignore the best healer on whatever server and others who bring nothing but crap to the discussion. Hit this thread up! Thanks!

 

Otherwise, let's keep this thread going if you would like.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Genttry

[Genttry]

Here is a link to my AJ thread FYI. http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/237814-swtor-20-pvp/

 

Thanks for your replies friends!

 

Edit: I have the same handle as here except that my name on AJ is Jentry not Genttry. Somebody took my name here:(

Edited April 21, 2013 by Genttry

[Wraithwarr]

you actually think pvp is better and more balanced after 2.o? Do you even play the game?

 

My take on your post is its a wall of babbling bs that shows you dont grasp the problems that 2.0 created.

 

Actually the vast majority of the player base is really enjoying the changes. The only people I have seen posting nasty little quips like this are the people who were happy with the 5 second ttk on healers. Face it, post 1.2 this game turned into an mmofps with a 3 second ttk. At least now we have some semblance of strategy, and healing and tanking are viable.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Wraithwarr

[Wraithwarr]

Nice post! I agree as well that pvp is looking MUCH better since the patch, especially at 55. I hope this is the direction things are heading permanently. I would love to see them go all-in on world pvp though

[Wraithwarr]

Hehe ya but gw2 pvp was largely a failure after people got bored of nothing to aim for. ^.^

This^ I was really excited to check out gw2, but I came back to swtor a few months after launch. sPvP and tPvP are as dull as dishwater. By removing the trinity, they also removed the fun.

[Darth_Vampirius]

you actually think pvp is better and more balanced after 2.o? Do you even play the game?

 

My take on your post is its a wall of babbling bs that shows you dont grasp the problems that 2.0 created.

 

+1 to this

[Eillack]

The OP is a great example of why you should never do drugs kids!

 

And now you know!

[Genttry]

Actually the vast majority of the player base is really enjoying the changes. The only people I have seen posting nasty little quips like this are the people who were happy with the 5 second ttk on healers. Face it, post 1.2 this game turned into an mmofps with a 3 second ttk. At least now we have some semblance of strategy, and healing and tanking are viable.

 

I agree. I think there really is a silent majority of players that enjoy the changes. The people posting on this PvP forum are passionate about PvP. I can dig that. However, the whining gets old, especially when Bioware made a change that seems to be in the correct direction. To be honest, I am surprised that I even got a few positive posts in this thread. Makes me happy!

 

As an aside, I am enjoying playing as a healy operative. It is a big change from playing a healy sorc. I enjoy the mobility and HOTs but I really miss the force pull, especially in Huttball! I'm playing in the lower brackets on my op, and I've seen some crazy healing numbers like 800k plus from sorcs and the bounty hunter healers in the level 50 range. Even some really good ops pull big numbers. I have yet to break 500K at level 32. I'm learning the class but overall it is fun.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Lol is all I have to say.

[Dencre]

If you actually like these changes then I just dont know what to say. PVP is so broken right now it is not even funny. Bolster is trash, burst is to high and healing is to high.