astrolite Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. Georg, Can you please share with us the DPS % gap between the classes (say champion geared), based on the same metrics you all use for balancing purposes? We'll eventually get this with the combat log, but I suspect we'll see sweeping DPS changes before it is released to avoid the inevitable and unavoidable truth that would otherwise come to the surface if it were implemented next patch. Not being snide here, but you could have made your RARE post in this forum more useful to us than stating the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprigum Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Georg, Can you please share with us the DPS % gap between the classes (say champion geared), based on the same metrics you all use for balancing purposes? We'll eventually get this with the combat log, but I suspect we'll see sweeping DPS changes before it is released to avoid the inevitable and unavoidable truth that would otherwise come to the surface if it were implemented next patch. Not being snide here, but you could have made your RARE post in this forum more useful to us than stating the obvious. I think the post was made as more of a "signal" that they do read even the most mundane posts in the sub forum, for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaknaphein Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) I think the post was made as more of a "signal" that they do read even the most mundane posts in the sub forum, for better or worse. A clever move indeed to show that "hey you're not overlooked and we 're investigating the whole matter". Especially right now that we 're getting close to the subscription ending period. But that doesn't fix reactions taken thoughtlessly without taking into consideration metrics over a long period of time. And we already know that, if we just head back a few weeks ago be4 the first monthly subscription ends... Edited February 15, 2012 by zaknaphein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMooMs Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) I think the post was made as more of a "signal" that they do read even the most mundane posts in the sub forum, for better or worse. i think they just want us to think exactly what u r thinking, what i think is that while he was vigoriously reading the sorc forums he had a monkey reply to that post :> think about it, its a visual thing ^^ Edited February 15, 2012 by sMooMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luno Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. I have to disagree. Level 16 isn't really arbitrary. It would be a very good level for a balance pass since most base classes have their bread and butter skills at that point. If the classes aren't balanced at level 16 when balance should be at its easiest, then what hope is there for the rest of the game? A large part of SWTOR's selling point is the level 1-49 game. Class balance during that period is very important to me, and, I suspect, to a great number of your customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grapenut Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) All classes should feel fun as they level up between each other to 50. There are always trade-offs here and there. But nothing so boldly askew-ed as the classes presented in swtor. Ops/smugs do not feel balanced at all. At lvl 16 my sage had a better kit of skills than my op for both PVE and PVP. At lvl 16 my merc was wasting 4 pack mobs with 2 skills. Rolling pve content easily. At Lvl 16 my op is way behind the curve of fun/playability. I really do not subscribe to the idea of a class having to suck until level X. That is bad game design. I'm lvl 32. And this class still feels bad. It's not just the skills, it also the bloated no direction talent tree choices. 3% poison with culling at the top of the concealment tree? For what 1 skill corrosive dart? While in the lethality tree shiv has 5% boost per point at the bottom of the tree? This game is an excellent single player experience. It shows very well that the developers have limited experience in any sort of class balances. Something single player games do not have to worry much. NO CLASS SHOULD FEEL USELESS UNTIL LEVEL X. That is bad design period. Edited February 15, 2012 by Grapenut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefishboy Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) All classes should feel fun as they level up between each other to 50. There are always trade-offs here and there. But nothing so boldly askew-ed as the classes presented in swtor. Ops/smugs do not feel balanced at all. At lvl 16 my sage had a better kit of skills than my op for both PVE and PVP. At lvl 16 my merc was wasting 4 pack mobs with 2 skills. Rolling pve content easily. At Lvl 16 my op is way behind the curve of fun/playability. I really do not subscribe to the idea of a class having to suck until level X. That is bad game design. I'm lvl 32. And this class still feels bad. It's not just the skills, it also the bloated no direction talent tree choices. 3% poison with culling at the top of the concealment tree? For what 1 skill corrosive dart? While in the lethality tree shiv has 5% boost per point at the bottom of the tree? This game is an excellent single player experience. It shows very well that the developers have limited experience in any sort of class balances. Something single player games do not have to worry much. NO CLASS SHOULD FEEL USELESS UNTIL LEVEL X. That is bad design period. As a Marauder, I started to feel useless at level 30, and at 50 with full champ gear, I still do. Edited February 15, 2012 by orangefishboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphis Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. Hi Georg, With all due respect, what you are saying and what you are confirming is that the game doesn't begin to be balanced until all players are max level and max gear. Thank you for the grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfryman Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. True But of all the posts in this forum with legit concerns, THIS is the one you chose to respond to? *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doki Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 True But of all the posts in this forum with legit concerns, THIS is the one you chose to respond to? *sigh* Speaks volumes, doesn't it? At least Medical Therapy is getting fixed in 1.1.4. Its a start, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. Any chance that you could address the (extensively analyzed on the Healer forum) power differences between level 50 healers? That's a topic that could really use some feedback. We have been patient, polite, constructive...we have discussed and proposed solutions, done the math and modeling to demonstrate the relative strengths and weaknesses. Crying and screaming have been kept to a minimum....and we have heard not a word. Yet something as obvious as how comparing low level character DPS isn't a valid metric gets a response. While a Dev Blog post about the state of healing, healing design intentions, and plans for adjustments to healing would be awesome, all we really want is for you to pop in over there and say: "Hi. We have not forgotten you." Might I recommend this long thread of healer requests. The class balance issues are probably clear just by looking at requests/suggestion by class alone, but the thread itself contains constructive discussion and analysis, as do other threads on that seemingly forgotten back corner of the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saella Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. O-M-F-G MAYBE NOT AT LVL 16, BUT I CAN CLEARLY COMPARE AT LVL 50 AN OPERATIVE AGAINST ANY OTHER CLASS (DPS/HEALING) AND WE ARE WAY UNDER !!!!!!!!!! I'M HEALER AND IM HAVING THE FEELING IM PLAYING AN HALF COMPLETED CLASS... HEALING TREE HAVE 0 SYNERGY AND IS JUST BAD... HEALING SKILL ARE 1/2 WORTHLESS (RECUPERATIVE NANOTECH, KOLTO INFUSION) ... I LOVE THE CLASS I FEEL LIKE ITS MY CLASS BUT GIVE ME TOOL GODDAMN... Come on.... But guess what: operative have stealth !!!! (this is overpowered, this need a nerf) What im able to understand from BW is, reroll a Sorcerer/Sage.... Edited February 16, 2012 by Saella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefishboy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) O-M-F-G MAYBE NOT AT LVL 16, BUT I CAN CLEARLY COMPARE AT LVL 50 AN OPERATIVE AGAINST ANY OTHER CLASS (DPS/HEALING) AND WE ARE WAY UNDER !!!!!!!!!! I'M HEALER AND IM HAVING THE FEELING IM PLAYING AN HALF COMPLETED CLASS... HEALING TREE HAVE 0 SYNERGY AND IS JUST BAD... HEALING SKILL ARE 1/2 WORTHLESS (RECUPERATIVE NANOTECH, KOLTO INFUSION) ... I LOVE THE CLASS I FEEL LIKE ITS MY CLASS BUT GIVE ME TOOL gosh darn... Come on.... But guess what: operative have stealth !!!! (this is overpowered, this need a nerf) What im able to understand from BW is, reroll a Sorcerer/Sage.... Hah! Try comparing Operative's Orbital strike to ANYTHING a Marauder does. Edited February 17, 2012 by orangefishboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFurz Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes. My Marauder is lvl 44 in great gear and I meet lvl 45 Commandos in pvp who dish out 5000 dmg in just 2 attacks (tracer missile 2200+ 2x 1300 dmg from an undefined skill) from RANGE in just a tick. An operative is doing similar dmg in close combat in his early 40ish, but on soft targets when no bubble is up. When does a true insight into power differences between classes start in this game ? Edited February 18, 2012 by BobaFurz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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