Disappointed about so-called "New In Game Barber-Shop"

[TheNahash]

If you'd like to make sure subscribers have access to these things Eric, simply give subscribers access. There's no need to confiscate the monthly grant to allow access. That destroys the entire illusion of giving subscribers the grant to begin with.

 

Why?

Every subscriber gets a minimum of 500 cartel coins.

YOU get to choose what you do with those Cartel Coins.

You can buy a Cartel Pack, you can wait until you have enough to buy an armor set or you can buy a new haircut.

 

Confiscating the monthy grant to allow access would be if we had to pay with our Cartel Coins to buy the Artifact Equipment Unlock - that affects how well we can do in game.

 

I don't see how giving us the option to choose where we spend our free Cartel Coins is "confiscating the monthly grant".

 

It's not like everyone NEEDS or even wants to change their hairstyle in order to play the game, just like not everyone needs or want a specific armor set that I might want or Carbonite Chamber.

[Levity]

Ah yes, the Diablo III development and release was an excellent example of perfect execution, to which all game developers everywhere should seek to imitate. Nary a single problem to be found anywhere. Oh how I wish all games could be as flawless as DIII.

 

D111 launch was epic. The game was awesome and well done. The patches they did where they introduced RMAH was what made it ****.

[Elear]

This is spin Eric. The CM stipend was billed as a "loyalty reward" for subscribers. Now it is being used to fund things that should be part of the subscription instead of giving subscribers complete control over said stipend. You are now basically supporting a bait and switch. Instead of doing that if you are going to take our CM stipend back in the form of nickle and diming us for features, why not just simply do away with the stipend and give all the future features as part of the price of the subscription.

If you'd like to make sure subscribers have access to these things Eric, simply give subscribers access. There's no need to confiscate the monthly grant to allow access. That destroys the entire illusion of giving subscribers the grant to begin with.

 

Exactly this. You can't design anything as being fueled by monthly grant. Firstly, because it eliminates grants itself if you already have use for them planned. Secondly, because there is only one grant and I doubt it will remain only 'feature' designed to suck away our CC.

Honestly, I don't care about barbershop or however you will call it. But I can already see six months from now content packs(or some actually usefull feature) on CM, "designed around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants".

[DarthTHC]

Exactly this. You can't design anything as being fueled by monthly grant. Firstly, because it eliminates grants itself if you already have use for them planned. Secondly, because there is only one grant and I doubt it will remain only 'feature' designed to suck away our CC.

Honestly, I don't care about barbershop or however you will call it. But I can already see six months from now content packs(or some actually usefull feature) on CM, "designed around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants".

 

You KNOW their goal is to find enough things subscribers want to (or must!) spend CC's on that it exceeds the stipend by a wide margin, right? Subscribers have already shown the desire to pay - they're the target audience. As opposed to f2p players who have shown a strong adversity to paying anything for the game.

Edited March 21, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Alec_Fortescue]

Except the cartel market isn't 100% "purely" cosmetic, is it? Or with this statement, are you indicating that you will be removing everything that is not purely 100% cosmetic from the cartel market?

 

Cartel Market is 100% cosmetic... Just because some level 33 armor piece has mods it doesn't make it pay to win. Those mods are meaningless during leveling. Absolutely no advantage. Show me an item which grants you a win, unless like myself you consider good looks as a kind of a win.

 

And considering the current prices and the amount of monthly grant one gets people have a right to be concerned about the pricing. One has to wait three months so they can buy themselves an armor set. Initial cartel coins rewards in november were barely enough to get a single armor set.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[DarthTHC]

Cartel Market is 100% cosmetic... Just because some level 33 armor piece has mods it doesn't make it pay to win. Those mods are meaningless during leveling. Absolutely no advantage. Show me an item which grants you a win, unless like myself you consider good looks as a kind of a win.

 

I didn't say "win". I said "non cosmetic". There are more items on the marked than what you mentioned that are more than just "cosmetic".

 

You're trying to make it about "level of benefit". My message was binary - on or off. White or black. No room for gray. It's purely cosmetic or it's more than purely cosmetic.

Edited March 21, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Khayleth]

We should be able to use a barbershop feature with just credits straight up if you're a subscriber. F2P and preferred players should pay CC's, there needs to be more rewards for being a subscriber. =/

[Pscyon]

• We very consciously design these systems around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants. Pricing, etc. has these monthly grants in mind to ensure that our subscribers have access to these systems.
  
• We want to set the expectation that cosmetic systems like these are where you are going to see us use the Cartel Market. It is our continued philosophy that we will not implement a form of pay to win so cosmetic systems and other non-game impacting features are our best opportunities to make additions to the Cartel Market.
  

 

Barber shop functionality (hair/beards/other facial hair/tattoos) or even more advanced stuff (full body customization) are commonly available in other MMORPGs too, both free and paid ones, with only game currency (that would be credits in the case of TOR) neccessary to use them for both free and subscribing players. What will be so dramatically different about TOR's barber that it requires funding with real money? As previously stated, I can understand it for more advanced things like changing race and/or body type, but something minor like your haircut?

 

The only reason I can see is that we'll effectively be thrown back to character creation screen and there won't be any distinction between a race change and a haircut, thus it isn't just a simple barber shop. But when you use words like "these systems" it does sound like it's not quite that simplistic and lazy.

 

By all means, add more functionality, features and stuff in general to the cartel market. The free players have to be funded somehow and the cartel market is how that's done. But don't put everything there, especially not when it's something commonly available to subscribers and even free players in other games.

[TheSeventhJedi]

We should be able to use a barbershop feature with just credits straight up if you're a subscriber. F2P and preferred players should pay CC's, there need to be rewards for being a subscriber. =/

 

I removed a word for you.

[Smuggler_Caylin]

I wanted to pop in and address some of your concerns about our barbershop and its use of Cartel Coins and not credits. There are a couple of design implications that go into these decisions I wanted to highlight in the hopes that it makes our decision in this regard a bit clearer.

 

• We very consciously design these systems around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants. Pricing, etc. has these monthly grants in mind to ensure that our subscribers have access to these systems.
  
• We want to set the expectation that cosmetic systems like these are where you are going to see us use the Cartel Market. It is our continued philosophy that we will not implement a form of pay to win so cosmetic systems and other non-game impacting features are our best opportunities to make additions to the Cartel Market.
  

As we continue to release more information about our barbershop please continue to give us your feedback.

 

-eric

 

Hi Eric,

 

I agree with a variety of our posters stating that subscribers are finding little to no reason to continue their subscriptions when quality of life changes such as this are locking them into spending cartel market coins.

 

Why not keep the base functionality of the barbershop available to subscribers at no cost, just as the respec system was?

 

Find ways to add additional barber-shop customizations through the cartel market but leave the base system and customizations available to the subscribers at no additional charge and F2P at a credit/CC charge.

 

Just as unlocking races unlocked more customization options, couldn't the same be done for the cartel market itself without having to resort to making the entire system a cash shop? This way we can find it as a bonus item, rather than a gated feature only accessible by spending more money.

 

I urge the company to make a decision that will not only make the shareholders happy but the subscribers as well.

[Onrush]

I wanted to pop in and address some of your concerns about our barbershop and its use of Cartel Coins and not credits. There are a couple of design implications that go into these decisions I wanted to highlight in the hopes that it makes our decision in this regard a bit clearer.

 

• We very consciously design these systems around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants. Pricing, etc. has these monthly grants in mind to ensure that our subscribers have access to these systems.
  
• We want to set the expectation that cosmetic systems like these are where you are going to see us use the Cartel Market. It is our continued philosophy that we will not implement a form of pay to win so cosmetic systems and other non-game impacting features are our best opportunities to make additions to the Cartel Market.
  

As we continue to release more information about our barbershop please continue to give us your feedback.

 

-eric

 

 

I was hoping that this would be implemented differently. This would have been a great opportunity to fill in a bit of the empty space in the fleet ships with a barber shop area. I also had loftier hopes of something more along the lines of a "gene lab" that would customize everything excluding species. This could have been a really fun and cool design. Spit in one hand and wish in the other i guess.

[Elfa]

Everything on the Cartel Market makes it way to the GTN and is sold for credits. There should be no issues here.

[TheNahash]

You KNOW their goal is to find enough things subscribers want to (or must!) spend CC's on that it exceeds the stipend by a wide margin, right?

 

This. Exactly this. How is that not obvious?

if they gave us 500-600 Cartel Coins every month and the average price of CM items was 20 Cartel Coins, who in their right mind would buy Cartel Coins?

 

Plus, there is also another issue: NO AMOUNT of free Cartel Coins would ever be enough.

Even if they gave us 10000 Cartel Coins, people would still whine that they also wanted to buy that "other armor set" but they couldn't because they also wanted to buy a colour crystal, a Holorancor, a Carbonite Chamber etc etc.

 

So even if they did raise the amount of our monthly grant, the only thing that would change would be the amount of things people whine about, nothing more.

Edited March 21, 2013 by TheNahash

[steaktrooper]

I am more concerned about the "changing species" part of this, as this will probably make very little sense from a lore standpoint, unless they manage to come up with some sort of genius explanation for it.

[Levity]

Everything on the Cartel Market makes it way to the GTN and is sold for credits. There should be no issues here.

 

Read the thread please. I posted before on this. People who buy CM items specifically to sell back to the community will put items on the market that GENERATE THE BEST REVENUE FOR THE AMOUNT THEY PURCHASED.

 

People won't be willing to pay good credits for this. Therefore people won't see it on the gtn. Not a good argument.

[Urael]

Everything on the Cartel Market makes it way to the GTN and is sold for credits. There should be no issues here.

 

This statement is false.

[Elfa]

Read the thread please. I posted before on this. People who buy CM items specifically to sell back to the community will put items on the market that GENERATE THE BEST REVENUE FOR THE AMOUNT THEY PURCHASED.

 

People won't be willing to pay good credits for this. Therefore people won't see it on the gtn. Not a good argument.

 

You are mistaken I'm afraid. People can will and do spend their credits constantly for these items. I've sold many items from the CM on the GTN and they do indeed sell and I never gouge people. Your ideas of price gouging are not the norm.

 

This statement is false.

What items have not made their way there? Perhaps I should say that all the items are capable of making their way onto the GTN. If an item doesn't sell, people don't buy it off the CM and place it on the GTN. That's just economics. Edited March 21, 2013 by Elfa

[Alec_Fortescue]

I didn't say "win". I said "non cosmetic". There are more items on the marked than what you mentioned that are more than just "cosmetic".

 

You're trying to make it about "level of benefit". My message was binary - on or off. White or black. No room for gray. It's purely cosmetic or it's more than purely cosmetic.

 

Sorry, you are right. I am the fool. Cartel Market does sell lots of convenience items and boosts... My bad. Stupid. You are right there.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[ThornKrell]

soon you won't be able to take a s**t without using cartel coins first

[Elfa]

soon you won't be able to take a s**t without using cartel coins first

 

Then I suggest you either save up your monthly allotment or hold it in.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Elfa

[Elear]

You KNOW their goal is to find enough things subscribers want to (or must!) spend CC's on that it exceeds the stipend by a wide margin, right? Subscribers have already shown the desire to pay - they're the target audience. As opposed to f2p players who have shown a strong adversity to paying anything for the game.

 

Really? And here dumb me thought that cartel packs, credits savers and all that other stuff already on CM was supposed to fill that role.

[Blackavaar]

Here's how I read it.

 

I wanted to pop in and address some of your concerns about our barbershop and its use of Cartel Coins and not credits. There are a couple of design implications that go into these decisions I wanted to highlight in the hopes that it makes our decision in this regard a bit clearer.

 

• We very consciously design these systems around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants. Pricing, etc. has these monthly grants in mind to ensure that our subscribers have access to these systems but will have to spend entire months or multiple months worth of stipends in order to do so. We did this on purpose in order to assure that subscribers will still have to pay extra in order to make re-customizations to more than just one character every 2 to 3 months.
  
• We want to set the expectation that ALL cosmetic systems like these are where you are going to see us use the Cartel Market ONLY. It is our continued philosophy that we will not implement a form of pay to win so cosmetic systems and other non-game impacting features are our best opportunities to make additions to the Cartel Market and gouge players for every cent we can.
  

As we continue to release more information about our barbershop please continue to give us your feedback, as if we are even going to consider it and not try to just spin everything to make you think that charging you for everything makes the most business sense for us and will insure you continue to get more updates that we will of course charge extra for every time.

 

-eric

 

:mad:

Edited March 21, 2013 by Blackavaar

[Levity]

You are mistaken I'm afraid. People can will and do spend their credits constantly for these items. I've sold many items from the CM on the GTN and they do indeed sell and I never gouge people. Your ideas of price gouging are not the norm.

 

What items have not made their way there? Perhaps I should say that all the items are capable of making their way onto the GTN. If an item doesn't sell, people don't buy it off the CM and place it on the GTN. That's just economics.

 

I'm not talking about price gouging. I'm talking about the price compared to the amount of CCs someone spends. If these barbershop things cost say 350 CCs and people are only willing to spend maybe 50k for it? People aren't going to buy it. And hell even if they cost 150 CCs, it's way better to buy cartel packs and sell them for a guaranteed 300-400k then what those will end up going for.

[Eldriq]

Eric thanks for the clairfication I personally think it is a great feature and have not problems with it being on the market. I don't anticipate using it more than 2 or 3 times but those times that I do use it will be worth every cartel coin spent

 

Thanks again

[Elfa]

I'm not talking about price gouging. I'm talking about the price compared to the amount of CCs someone spends. If these barbershop things cost say 350 CCs and people are only willing to spend maybe 50k for it? People aren't going to buy it. And hell even if they cost 150 CCs, it's way better to buy cartel packs and sell them for a guaranteed 300-400k then what those will end up going for.

 

So are you worried that CM buyers won't transfer these items to the GTN anymore if the cost of them on the CM doesn't justify what they get from the GTN in credits?