Selecting need for loot

[Ratajack]

That's obvious that Player A is also in the wrong as he's rolling on need for something that wasn't an upgrade to his personal toon.

 

Although I haven't done a FP in over a month, when I was, I never needed anything as I'm full BiS. I was just going for the BH comms. Still, I never rolled need. Didn't even need to look at the drop. None of it, obviously, was going to be an upgrade. So I rolled need. Then if someone asked if they could roll need because they wanted the mods, or off-spec, or for a comp I didn't care.

 

That's how you do it (both on my end and the other peoples' ends) unless you want to get ostracized.

 

How about two more examples.

 

Player A Shadow tank

Player B Vanguard DPS

Player C Sage DPS

Player D Scoundrel healer

 

Aim chest piece with shield and absorb rating drops. It would be a huge upgrade for Corso. Who gets to roll need?

 

 

Player A Guardian tank

Player B Sentinel DPS

Player C Gunslinger DPS

Player D Sage healer

 

Heavy armor chest piece drops with DPS stats- strength, endurance and power, but no shield and no absorb rating. Who gets to roll need?

Edited March 19, 2013 by Ratajack

[Swaption]

Player A vanguard tank

Player B sentinel DPS

Player C gunslinger DPS

 

Player D scoundrel healer

 

Aim chestpiece drops. How is telling player D that he cannot roll need on that chest piece (that might be a huge upgrade for Corso) when the tank rolls need (even if he is already wearing the same chest piece) not denying Player D a chance at that chest piece?

 

You seem like an intelligent person, but your understanding of why the need/greed conventions are the way they are is wrong.

 

The foundation of the system is in maximizing overall utility. An upgrade for a player character leads to greater utility to that player than an upgrade for a player companion.

 

As for everyone having a "chance" for loot, this system makes the chance/roll essentially occur before the loot is dropped. If no item drops that you are entitled to need on by this convention, you already lost the roll that occured when the game was deciding which piece of gear to drop. It does not mean you didn't get a fair share of the loot. Any argument otherwise ignores the prior probability inherent in the drop roll.

 

Furthermore, even if you completely disagree with the system and reasoning above, you have to recognize that it is largely fair if everyone follows its rules (if anything, it must be fair by symmetry). If you decide to break these rules while everyone else follows them, you will come out ahead of those who follow the rules. You do not have to agree with these conventions, but you must recognize that they exist and are considered the default rules by a huge majority of the community unless otherwise noted.

 

Finally, if you choose to act differently but want to do so in a fair and mature way, you should announce your roll conventions ahead of time. That way, the system is still fair, albeit suboptimal. If you find a group of people that agree with you, then there is no problem at all. However, you will most likely find that doing so will most likely get you kicked from the group without further discussion.

[Ratajack]

Player A vanguard tank

Player B sentinel DPS

Player C gunslinger DPS

 

Player D scoundrel healer

 

Aim chestpiece drops. How is telling player D that he cannot roll need on that chest piece (that might be a huge upgrade for Corso) when the tank rolls need (even if he is already wearing the same chest piece) not denying Player D a chance at that chest piece?

 

 

You seem like an intelligent person, but your understanding of why the need/greed conventions are the way they are is wrong.

 

The foundation of the system is in maximizing overall utility. An upgrade for a player character leads to greater utility to that player than an upgrade for a player companion.

 

As for everyone having a "chance" for loot, this system makes the chance/roll essentially occur before the loot is dropped. If no item drops that you are entitled to need on by this convention, you already lost the roll that occured when the game was deciding which piece of gear to drop. It does not mean you didn't get a fair share of the loot. Any argument otherwise ignores the prior probability inherent in the drop roll.

 

Furthermore, even if you completely disagree with the system and reasoning above, you have to recognize that it is largely fair if everyone follows its rules (if anything, it must be fair by symmetry). If you decide to break these rules while everyone else follows them, you will come out ahead of those who follow the rules. You do not have to agree with these conventions, but you must recognize that they exist and are considered the default rules by a huge majority of the community unless otherwise noted.

 

Finally, if you choose to act differently but want to do so in a fair and mature way, you should announce your roll conventions ahead of time. That way, the system is still fair, albeit suboptimal. If you find a group of people that agree with you, then there is no problem at all. However, you will most likely find that doing so will most likely get you kicked from the group without further discussion.

 

All that typing and you didn't even answer the question asked.

[river_of_Gem]

We all know that there are no rule that forced us to give our seat to pregnant woman or old people on bus, but we do it anyway

[Swaption]

All that typing and you didn't even answer the question asked.

 

If it wasn't clear from context, I was referring to your earlier comments.

 

In that case there is no mainstat "need" roll and its just whatever the group decides on. Standard ettiquette is only very clear for mainstat upgrades.

[UniverseSong]

How about two more examples.

 

Player A Shadow tank

Player B Vanguard DPS

Player C Sage DPS

Player D Scoundrel healer

 

Aim chest piece with shield and absorb rating drops. It would be a huge upgrade for Corso. Who gets to roll need?

 

 

Player A Guardian tank

Player B Sentinel DPS

Player C Gunslinger DPS

Player D Sage healer

 

Heavy armor chest piece drops with strength, endurance and power, but no shield and no absorb rating. Who gets to roll need?

 

 

If your lucky enough to group with decent people the situation for those should be GREED for everyone , unless of course a player within the group says hey do you mind if i need for off-spec or companion.

 

Had a situation myself today pugged a SM EC , there was a Vanguard that joined as a Tank and myself on my commando dps, at the last boss when kephess drops the BH pieces he needs on the Aim pieces regardless of the fact they were clearly dps items , and when asked why he a Tank in Dreadguard / Campaign gear his response "I don't give a **** , DPS is my main spec , and what do you care its only BH gear ... i can need it so i will" keeping in mind that my gear is tionese/columi . Who should have won those ?

 

Fact is the system as is can work perfectly fine when not dealing with the above kind *****s. And unfortunatly they are becoming more and more common because theres no system in place to have something done.

Edited March 19, 2013 by UniverseSong

[nateslice]

You guys who like Needing on everything should keep something else in mind, something you don't seem to be taking into account here.

 

We bind ourselves by these unwritten rules, too. All you see is that we're telling you you can't Need on gear for your companions; you're neglecting to consider that we, in turn, won't be Needing on stuff that's better-suited for you.

 

If the first three drops in a flashpoint are best-suited for your character, hey, congratulations on getting three new pieces of gear. If the fourth drop is best-suited for me, please have the consideration to Pass on it like I Passed on all your shiny new pieces.

 

Or, just go ahead and exercise this "freedom of choice" you're so keen on bringing up, and don't complain if I exercise my freedom of association by leaving the group and putting you on my Ignore list.

[Belacose]

Simply put, if you roll need on an item for your companion without even discussing it with the group you should expect yourself to be waiting in longer queues in the future as more and more people add you to their ingnore list. The choice is yours. Edited March 19, 2013 by Belacose

[Taminy]

Standard convention is rolling need on stuff for one's char only that actually benefits the char - not companions, not alts, not a guardian taking an orange piece of trooper gear because it looks cool, and not to sell on the GTN or vendor.

 

That's the standard convention. If you should believe it to be otherwise, discuss it with your group before rolls. Just rolling need before saying anything is a dbag move. If that's your belief, have the balls to discuss it first.

 

/thread

[Prysha]

easy, i need what i need.. thats it.

[AsheraII]

Simply put, if you roll need on an item for your companion without even discussing it with the group then expect yourself to be waiting in longer queues in the future as more and more people add you to their ingnore list. The choice is yours.

On the other hand, those players should then stop complaining about there being no healers for Athiss. They chose to put those on ignore themselves.

 

But seriously, this almost only happens in leveling content. NOT in raids. People are smarter than that. The ONLY thing special about those drops in Esseles, Black Talon, Athiss, Mando Raiders, you name it, is their appearance. The first commendation vendor you run into can easily supply those exact same mods. So really, it's a non-issue.

 

I seriously wish Bioware would just delete the mods from flashpoint drops, or at least reward those seperately from the shells as additional loot. So instead of [Heavy Chestpiece with Aim], we got to roll on [Heavy Chestpiece] + [Armoring mod] + [Mod] + [Enhancement mod].

 

Or even better: reward every one the exact same BOP item. it might be more useful to some groupmembers than to others, but who cares? Otherwise you probably would've gotten nothing at all. There's a ~75% chance of the drop not being suitable for your character anyway, but if every groupmember gets the same item, there won't be whining to pls trade it, there won't be any rolls necessay, and you can always vendor the thing for a few credits (no selling on market, since they're BOP, remember?). Placing lootdistribution in the hands of the players is seriously the WORST decision ever made in MMO's.

[coille]

Social conventions in this game with the companion system have developed to the point where Need is for you, Greed is sale or companions. If you choose to flout those conventions, then expect the other players to kick you. These are unwritten rules, just like not queue-jumping at a bus stop is an unwritten rule, but still one that the other people around you expect to be obeyed. Being selfish, denying other players an upgrade just so you can use it on one of your companions, is going to get you a reputation as a ninja. Paying for the game does not give you carte blanche to be that guy everybody hates with zero consequences.

 

You need those other gamers to complete group content, THAT is what gives them the right. You want to play solo and rely on the RNG giving you useful items, go right ahead. You want to play in flashpoints, ops and other group activities, get over yourself and learn to play nice.

 

That pretty much sums it up. I can see what you're saying but if you want to play with others then you have to accept the established social convention.

[DorkTrooper]

Unless the "actual character" player soloed the mob that dropped the loot, he has no right to tell another player they cannot roll need. Everyone who participates in the fight has the right to roll need.

 

Yeah, until he gets booted. Rolling need for companion gear in a PUG is a gamble. You know it, and the OP knows it. And complaining about it on the forums isn't going to change that fact that many people will votekick for that.

[UberRod]

But why is their character more important? I play with my companion beside me every second im not playing a flashpoint and my companion is critical in my winning each mission. So i dont understand why their gaming is more important than mine. I dont understand this sense of entitlement that someone else has over another gamer. If you pay for a game it should not be dictated on someone elses terms how you play should it? As long as you arent cheating.

 

Your companion is not a paying member/actual human player. The other people on your team are.

 

There are such things as common courtesy and playing nicely with others.

[Kestalas]

Why the sense of entitlement over another gamer?

 

As far as im concerned, im a paid subscriber. Why should some other gamer dictate to me what I can or cannot do to benefit them?

 

This sense of entitlement over someone else is baffling.

 

Yes OP, why the sense of entitlement over another gamer? Hypocritical much? Quite baffling indeed.

 

Social conventions in this game with the companion system have developed to the point where Need is for you, Greed is sale or companions. If you choose to flout those conventions, then expect the other players to kick you. These are unwritten rules, just like not queue-jumping at a bus stop is an unwritten rule, but still one that the other people around you expect to be obeyed. Being selfish, denying other players an upgrade just so you can use it on one of your companions, is going to get you a reputation as a ninja. Paying for the game does not give you carte blanche to be that guy everybody hates with zero consequences.

 

You need those other gamers to complete group content, THAT is what gives them the right. You want to play solo and rely on the RNG giving you useful items, go right ahead. You want to play in flashpoints, ops and other group activities, get over yourself and learn to play nice.

 

/Thread

[Brackiss]

And this is why I haven't run in any fp groups yet. There's always someone who thinks needing on everything is ok. It happens in every MMO, and no matter how many times you tell them it's wrong, they still think that what they're doing is right.

[river_of_Gem]

And this is why I haven't run in any fp groups yet. There's always someone who thinks needing on everything is ok. It happens in every MMO, and no matter how many times you tell them it's wrong, they still think that what they're doing is right.

 

Don't let those player discourage you from doing group content on SWTOR or any other MMO. Those player can think all they want while they getting their vote kick ( and then crying on forum lol )

[Jonrobbie]

Yes OP, why the sense of entitlement over another gamer? Hypocritical much? Quite baffling indeed.

 

 

 

/Thread

 

Hypocritical you say? So its fine for you or for anyone else to say they deserve the chance to roll and I do not. Please explain how that is NOT a sense of entitlement?

I say we all deserve the chance to roll. How is saying give everyone a chance if they so choose a sense of entitlement over one person saying they deserve it more? Please elaborate

Edited March 19, 2013 by Jonrobbie

[CelCawdro]

Hypocritical you say? So its fine for you or for anyone else to say they deserve the chance to roll and I do not. Please explain how that is NOT a sense of entitlement?

I say we all deserve the chance to roll. How is saying give everyone a chance if they so choose a sense of entitlement over one person saying they deserve it more? Please elaborate

 

The game is designed to cater loot to the classes present. Thus, if Aim loot drops, it only dropped because a Trooper was present. Not for your companion. Of course, the game presents you the option to roll, nonetheless (it assumes, mistakenly, that people can actually communicate their intent to each other, maturely). Should you take advantage of that discourtesy to your group, you can expect them to take advantage of a particular system that was designed to deal with that kind of inconsiderate behaviour.

[Operandi]

can everyone stop posting on this thread as the OP has not posted in 9 pages just let it die

[Red_rocks]

So because you cannot benefit from allowing the dice to decide, that makes it ok to take away the rights of another so that only you can benefit?

 

But you are not allowing the dice to decide.

Everyone else is rolling greed on stuff they dont need for their main character and you're rolling need.

Thats taking the loot, not letting the dice decide.

EVERYONE has companions.

EVERYONE deserves an equal shot at loot for their companions - thats why we greed.

If you flout the communities rules you are telling them that your companions are more important than everyone elses.

No wonder you get flamed.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Red_rocks

[Red_rocks]

How about two more examples.

 

Player A Shadow tank

Player B Vanguard DPS

Player C Sage DPS

Player D Scoundrel healer

 

Aim chest piece with shield and absorb rating drops. It would be a huge upgrade for Corso. Who gets to roll need?

 

 

Player A Guardian tank

Player B Sentinel DPS

Player C Gunslinger DPS

Player D Sage healer

 

Heavy armor chest piece drops with DPS stats- strength, endurance and power, but no shield and no absorb rating. Who gets to roll need?

 

In example one the vanguard dps. Offspec is still more important than companion.

 

In example 2, both jedi knights can roll need, the guardian for offspec, and the sentinel to rip mods.

 

I still see no need for companions to enter the equation at all.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Red_rocks

[jovianus]

How about two more examples.

 

Player A Shadow tank

Player B Vanguard DPS

Player C Sage DPS

Player D Scoundrel healer

 

Aim chest piece with shield and absorb rating drops. It would be a huge upgrade for Corso. Who gets to roll need?

 

The Vanguard. His offspec which he can use to contribute to group content takes precedence over your companion making your solo life easier.

 

Of course, you could always do something crazy like, I dunno, ask him if he wants it or if you can need on it for your companion. But as we've been told, mature people take what they want, only children cooperate with other people.

 

Player A Guardian tank

Player B Sentinel DPS

Player C Gunslinger DPS

Player D Sage healer

 

Heavy armor chest piece drops with DPS stats- strength, endurance and power, but no shield and no absorb rating. Who gets to roll need?

 

Guardian for offspec, Sentinel for mods.

 

I don't really see why it's so complicated. You're companion generally only makes life easier for you/contributes to your solo play. The player who is actually present helping clear the group content has priority regardless, but even moreso because while them getting an upgrade will make their soloing easier, it also makes them more effective when working with groups.

[drug_cartel]

Ah, the joy's of being a Trooper. Four companions use Heavy Armor with Aim, and the fifth one is a Droid which nobody can claim is for their actual character. Nobody will ever yell at me for /needing on the items that I can wear, and I can fully outfit my character plus almost every companion without anyone even batting an eye.

[KyaniteD]

I've seen too many discussions on this topic. In the end, this says it all.

 

Why should you dictate their ability to choose to play with you? They simply decided that you're not the kind of person they wish to play with. You have no right to dictate that to them, as they're paying subscribers.

 

Kick the ninjas if you don't like them. Or, if you find yourself grouped with a ninja, everyone roll need on all items. With the 2 hrs timer you can sort out among yourselves later who gets what.