Pay to Win? The Cartel Market

[Bleeters]

I'd happily make it so that BiS PvE gear was only obtainable via raid drops on the condition that those raid drops were actually good.

 

Right now, they're not, nor can I ever really remember a time when they were. They're atrociously designed in terms of stat allocation, to the point that straight-off-the-vendor Dread Guard gear was, at least for my class, worse than Black Hole. Taking away the ability of people to craft replacement mods and enhancements without fixing that isn't going to make raiding suddenly more arbitrarily 'worth it'. It'll just dramatically increase the amount of raid grinding is required to get a set of gear that isn't garbage.

 

I don't consider that to be a preferable situation than being able to expend considerable amounts of in-game money to get things crafted, personally. It's not like molecular stabilizers just rain from the sky.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Bleeters

[Monoth]

QFT.

 

I already thought it was a bad idea to allow every BIS end game item to RE to a schematic, but this current situation makes playing the end game for progression sake an absolute joke.

 

Not only can players craft all BIS items, they can sell all of them for credits on the GTN, send all of their bound BIS mods to alts, and farm up steady supplies of mats through PVP, space missions, and drops in CM packs.

 

Add in the Cartel Market promoting the idea that players can buy CM items for real money to sell in game for credits, and we have a de facto system in place to buy end game BIS gear with real money.

 

I was thinking the same thing as the OP and others BUT as people have pointed out it would cost anywhere from $250-$350 of real cash to put together a full suit of Denova Mods.... I say if someone is willing to shell out that kind of dough so be it, just more money for Bioware to keep producing content..... Although it might not hurt to up the requirements of mats to make the 27 mods... would make it more expensive to the point that someone would only buy a few mods and keep raiding for the rest.. For Example going on your 50th run of HM Asation and not getting the weapon, after that you might just spend the money to get the barrel and mods for it... (shrug)

 

They just need to make it harder to get mats to make the RE stuff.... or require more mats to make end game mods..

 

But on the Pay to Win chart, on a scale of 1 (earn it yourself) to 10 (buying it all with cash), I would say this is only maybe a 3, as the majority won't be able to spend $300+ on a video game. And even if you removed the Cartel Shop the people who have that kind of cash would just but credits from Gold Farming sites... so either way they would have it

 

Now if you could buy a full suit of Dread Guard Gear with all the mods in it for say $18 in the Cartel Shop, then ya that would be a big ol' 10 on the Pay to Win chart...

Edited January 26, 2013 by Monoth

[KariTalRathe]

The amount of irrationality that spewed forth as attempts to counter the original argument absolutely floors me.

 

I'm working hard to push through and get my 63 gear though NiM Denova and HM Terror. I like the idea of it being a reward for my efforts. There is a large portion of the SWTOR populace, myself included, that sees the completion of the PvE operation content and filling out their gear with the latest gear from said content as "winning." To me, that reward is diminished if the same result can be achieved by someone paying a couple hundred dollars in real cash to buy cartel items, sell them, and purchase the armorings, mods, enhancements and barrels on the GTN.

 

Doesn't matter if you think Pay to Win is not the right description, or if you think that only PvP matters, doesn't matter if you think that 200 dollars is a huge amount of money (It's not, players with disposable income sometimes dump thousands of dollars on free-to-play games). What matters is that some of Bioware's paying customer base feel that their efforts are being diminished because someone who has money to burn in the real world can get the same gear without putting in the in-game effort.

 

If I inspect someone and see all 63 gear, that should be a reliable mechanism to determine that the player knows the operation content and doesn't have to be carried through it. Currently it's not.

 

This type of...dunno, what to call it. Elitism? Competitiveness? Whatever, I just don't get it. At. All

 

I'm just like you Zuuf. I love to be rewarded for my own efforts and not take shortcuts, but I just don't get how someone using a different method to make credits makes my own style of play any less fun, or any less valid.

 

Do you never skip mobs in a FP? Do you never send freshly made alts credits, or gear you have picked up, or spare crafting materials or schematics? Of course you do and yet I don't think you consider that when you group with a new player on his first character that perhaps you are being unfair to him having sugar-mommy or -daddy paying your alt's way. Well actually I don't think you are being unfair to him, but using your argument, you clearly would.

 

And don't tell me it isn't the same. It's exactly the same.

[TalonVII]

Cartel Market P2W?

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

 

 

Wow, it's more like pay for vanity items than pay 2 win. About the only advantage cartel market items had, was the fact when i started my jedi guadian, i had a lightsaber[which didn't really have any good stats until i got to 9 and could put mods in it] and i had some nice armor that again sucked until i hit 9.

 

Sorry you think the cartel market is pay to win? Guess you never played dark orbit, or Battlestar Galactica Online. This game ain't nothing compared to those two as far as p2w.

[Keadil]

You can actually buy XP in Aion now. You can even buy items that significantly boost the rate you can earn pvp equipment. That is P2Win. What we have here are vanity items, and a few rare items that are only as valuable as the players decide they are.

[Jnight]

so you mean...he can jus, buy what I have spent the last year of my life acquiring

 

but but...that means I no special any more

 

 

/sadface

 

mus complain to people so I can remain special snowflake

Edited January 26, 2013 by Jnight

[Monoth]

You can actually buy XP in Aion now. You can even buy items that significantly boost the rate you can earn pvp equipment. That is P2Win. What we have here are vanity items, and a few rare items that are only as valuable as the players decide they are.

 

His complaint is someone can by these "" Vanity "" items and sell them on the GTN for in game credits which can be used to buy dread guard gear mods from crafters......

 

It's a valid point but not exactly Pay to Win.... just kinda of... I figure if Bioware didn't allow you to sell the cartel items on the GTN these people would just buy credits from Gold Farmers and get the gear mods anyways.....

[Suzina]

The Pay-to-Win cartel market is an absolute disgrace and a slap in the face to subscribers. I cancelled my 6-month sub in December.

 

I know several people, including one individual in my guild, who spent hundreds of real life dollars to convert to credits and thereby get best-in-slot gear upon reaching level 50. Having best-in-slot gear no longer means you have done anything, even set foot in an operation or flashpoint.

[Weaksauce]

people spending tons of RL $$$ to get credits to give to crafters. This is bad how? Just craft and rake in the money and gear yourself up on the crits.

 

These aren't the "pay to win" you are looking for.

[Eurynamous]

It does not diminish your gameplay experience at all. How you play the game is all that should matter, not what anyone else does. That and you're lumping in the people who grind dailes and avoid the CM like its the plague in with the said people who sell CM gear on the GTN.

 

I have some 63's wedged into my bracers, belt, saber and offhand. Because you need the crafted 63's to actually upgrade that gear. I got my stabs/matrix from HM TFB, SM TFB, HM EC and some NIM EC. But I bet you would automatically assume I sold crap vanity items and bought my way into those items.

 

This whole pay to win argument is fail, since it literally has no impact on you and makes the guilds who completed the content wealthy through crafting. This phrase will continue to be misused and over exaggerated, as it seems that some people really want this game to fail.

 

Now commence with the generic, canned rebuttal's.

[Diefenbaker]

This isn't pay to win. Pay to win would be if I'd buy my super duper lvl 50 gear in the CC, which I can't do in SWTOR. I can sell some CC stuff for ingame credits (if I'm lucky to get such drop from the packs) and then buy some gear with those. But that's not the definition of pay to win.

 

I'm not surprised. Some people are only happy if they can complain about something. Let me call the whaaaaaambulance.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Diefenbaker

[Divona]

I was waiting and waiting someone to notice this as OP described in this thread and sum it up.

 

It was funny to look how people discuss over new speeder price and other stuff on CM but majority dont even know since DG armor and with RE'ing items you can buy all gear now and effectively game went to famous "Pay to Win".

 

There are few achivements you cant buy like some mounts, titles and social items, But when it comes to performance in pve and not "convenience" then everything can be bought. I saw one player in our server listed pretty much everything that CM sells (unlocks legacys, packs, consumables, 5 pod racer speeder on GTN same time (2m price for one and so much other stuff). Now i wont debate how much money he spent but there are others aswell selling mass CM items.

I dont mind this as it also affects me getting some items i like cheap so ii dont have to buy items from CM and not spending any extra money besides monthly fee.

But i cant deny currently game is pay to win want we to see that or not. There are various things Bioware could add so only pve progressing items can be available via gameplay only and not from CM, but its going opposite direction. All new fluff goes into CM directly that is color crystals, armor sets speeders and more coming soon.

Selling them generates alot credits and what else you use credits than buy gear or mats to craft gear.

 

I did posted and warned about this before CM appeared but people didnt belive then that it is going pay to win and most stuff will be only available in CM. Well here we are now and thats how game goes forward. Alot more items coming, we know next set 4 cartel packs are ready already and they develop 3rd pack content (we seeing only 1st 4 packs currently).

 

The greed for money is stronger and i dont blame Bioware, the journey has been very very bumpy.

It kinda amuses me thinking all the forum posts that people really belived Cartel market will be only for fluff. Remember new ship mods? It was just a start...

Edited January 26, 2013 by Divona

[Bleeters]

I know several people, including one individual in my guild, who spent hundreds of real life dollars to convert to credits and thereby get best-in-slot gear upon reaching level 50.

You know what they say about fools and their money.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Bleeters

[Rovshchik]

There is only one thing that needs to change.

 

Created items should not provide schemes with reverse engineering.

[Draliloth]

You sir, good forum writer, are a complete and utter moron. As well as a troll. It is not pay to win. In any game, with an online story (with a rare few exceptions) the game IS pay to play, literally. This system we have does not sell you DREAD GUARD GEAR does not sell you PVP GEAR, it sells you items, which people can sell for in game currency, yes? Most games have that ability. It DOES NOT make the game pay to win. I buy cartel items for the cool look, I do not roll them over to create an in game profit and buy upgrades, though I do not doubt some people do. But in reality, Cartel Coins, to Galactic Credits, the average conversion rate, on an average Cartel market item, is still hilarious, they are overpriced for anyone to take a gamble with them. Buying online currency from some illegal third party vendor is a cheaper lane of paying to win. So I say again, you sir are a troll, with nothing better to do than to complain about something that is wrong only in the eye of the beholder, namely you, and not based in factual evidence.

[Ratham]

There is currently nothing "pay to win" in the Cartel Market.

 

Since space missions are a single player thing, level 7 ship upgrades do not count.

[necromorteus]

In addition, as stated in my original post, in game currency in most games will not allow you to buy even a third of your gear. In SWTOR, you can purchase all of it.

 

Really, I do not even have the best end game gear, currently Black hole with some Campaign armorings, and absolutely none of it can be purchased with in game currency, that can be traded in any way. So please do tell how one can buy all of it.

[Moza]

Really, I do not even have the best end game gear, currently Black hole with some Campaign armorings, and absolutely none of it can be purchased with in game currency, that can be traded in any way. So please do tell how one can buy all of it.

 

You can't buy the shells, of course, but the mods that provide the same stats as BH gear can all be purchased from the GTN.

[SnoggyMack]

Really, I do not even have the best end game gear, currently Black hole with some Campaign armorings, and absolutely none of it can be purchased with in game currency, that can be traded in any way. So please do tell how one can buy all of it.

 

You can get item modifications like Advanced Resolve Armoring 27 off of the GTN. That's a level 63 item budget, on par with Dread Guard gear. A player can go lower to Advanced Resolve Armoring 26 if you want something akin to Black Hole and Campaign Gear that you're sporting.

 

As the poster above says you can't get the shells. But ... if you want a set bonus, you can just use your free Tionese gear with these mods.

 

Or just use some moddable gear you like the look of and skip the set bonus.

 

So the OP is right, you can spend credits to pick up a set of gear that is comparable to end-game raiding gear.

 

The problem is, each of those mods costs over 1 million credits. Each one. They take 2, 3 or 4 mods depending on item. And then you bother to augment them. The price is insane.

 

The OP is also right that you can spend real life dollars to buy stuff in the cash shop. And then place that stuff you bought on the GTN. And sell that for in-game credits.

 

So yes, it is possible to "buy" end-game gear.

 

But it's not worth the money you spend.

[amnie]

I'm not entirely sure if anyone has mentioned this in the last ten pages, but here it goes anyway

 

 

 

I too am a fan of people achieving stuff 'in game'

 

I am actually not too thrilled by the idea that the end-game mods can even be crafted, however if that wasn't the case crafting would be 99% useless (compared to other games, anyway. for a real crafter the TOR crafting is a slap in the face to begin with)

 

 

HOWEVER:

 

high end gear is to do the high end operations

 

if someone decides to spend their real life money (meaning they spend their real life time on earning it) on in-game gear to do in-game content because they don't have the time to do it.. so be it. let them.

 

an operation run will take FOREVER when you're taking someone with you who might have the gear - but not the practice.

 

I'm fairly sure on most servers there aren't any pug runs doing nightmare denova (or even hardmode tfb)

 

you need 4 molecular stabilizer for one armouring, same goes for mods and enhancements. for 'best in slot' you need 7 of each (we're assuming the char in question is not a dual-wielder)

 

for hilt/barrel you need 8 stabilizer.

 

that means we need a total of (3x7x4+8=) 92 stabilizer

 

I don't know about other servers, but on my server one molecular stabilizer usually sells for about 100k-120k. let's just say 100k.

 

so, to gear up one would need 9.2 mio credits, not including the price for possibly needed crystals, implants, ear pieces aaand of course augmentation kits + augments.

 

let's just say we have a total of 10 mio.

 

 

 

1 mio is worth about 10 dollar on my server....

I'm sorry, but if someone is willing to pay 100 dollar to gear up their char...

 

LET THEM!

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

This is, of course, what is meant by Pay to Win.

 

No its not, its most definitely not.

 

What is meant by Pay to Win is if you can get in an game advantage over other players solely by using real money. By allowing cartel items to be placed on the GTN the devs have made it less probable that the game will become Pay to Win.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Oh, right. As someone who refuses to wear the ugly Tionese/Columi/Rakata gear (on my Bounty Hunter), it didn't hit me that someone might stuff tier 27 mods into those shells.

 

Well the good news is that you only need 4 pieces for the best set bonus so you can wear any chestpiece you want which makes it a lot less painful as the other pieces are not that bad.

[necromorteus]

You can't buy the shells, of course, but the mods that provide the same stats as BH gear can all be purchased from the GTN.

 

I did forget about that, as I have never been able to afford those. However I do not consider this Pay to Win, as something still has to be done in game. Yes you can pay money for things to put up on the gtn to make credits, but something in game still has to be done. This is however just my opinion.

[Mowermanx]

Why cant you RE War Hero stuff for schems, yet you can for Dread Guard?

Is that the imaginary line in the sand BW have drawn?

Edited January 27, 2013 by Mowermanx

[JimG]

Is it mid-November again? This is just re-hashed ground that was covered approximately 10 weeks ago when the Cartel Market launched. I'm guessing the OP hasn't bought many packs either because you're much more likely to get a Ball Toss or Imperial/Republic Banner that's worth about 500 credits on the GTN than a Throne or White Crystal. If someone wanted to just farm packs to make credits, then they'd need to buy a LOT of packs. If you think it's so lucrative from a credit standpoint to farm packs, then I'd suggest you buy packs off the GTN and see how well you do at it.