Pay to Win? The Cartel Market

[SnoggyMack]

The phrase "pay to win" is about paying to win PVP combat, not about winning against a computer, you are mixing up terms and frankly it make no sense.

 

Ah, the OP could make a much stronger case for Pay to Win in PVP with the cartel shop because of the effect +82 expertise has on 1-49 PVP.

[NogueiraA]

Buy a bunch of the new mount, sell on GTN and buy the mods/armorings and enhancement for your char!

 

Retarded for win!! This is what you are, retarded.

[Draekos]

I dont really see it as pay to win currently. It's no different than people farming dailies or playing the GTN to get credits. The problem more lies in the ability to RE mods from top tier gear than the cash shop IMO. Edited January 26, 2013 by Draekos

[LogicalPremise]

 

I do not feel it is pay to win in any fashion.

 

If I understand the precis of your argument it is that

 

a) players can acquire packs and items at monetary value and rapidly convert these to in-game credits at a faster rate than grinding dailies or GTN sales.

 

b) such accelerated advantage allows them to over-gear their characters at every level and give them some abilities to purchase 'end-game' mods such as 27 hilts, mods, etc

 

I find this to be not pay to win so much as fools separated from their money. Here is my precis in counterpoint:

 

a) Yes, CC can be used to acquire credits at a faster clip. The monetary cost for doing so is EXTREME. And as an end result, it takes me (if I am lucky with some packs) a few hours to raise 3 million credits from CC Sales -- except I also have to wait 24 hours to sell them. A purchase of 10 packs is likely to yield at least 4 to 5 good items, maybe a 5-pack of molecular stabilizers , and 1 , maybe 2 really high priced items. Assuming a best-case scenario, such a haul (a couple of thrones, a mask of nihilus, 10 molec stabls, some nice mounts, a valor bonus) might yield as much as 5 million credits.

 

A 27 hilt off the GTN will cost 1.5. High end mods will cost 700 to 800k. Mats for the ones that are not for sale will eat up a couple of million. In the end, none of the PVP gear is available with this, and ALL of the PvE gear that is can also be acquired , if slower, through just grinding.

 

b) It is not pay to win because of the fact that it's ingame. Compare to STO.

 

Pay to win implies the only possible way to achieve BiS / BiC / Best in Whatever is through the cash store. ALL of the best ships and almost all of the best equipment in STO can only be acquired through

 

a) the cash shop, directly

b) paying $$$ to open lottery boxes

c) paying $$$ for supplies at a ruinous cost to build up a fleet starbase and then equip it.

 

The estimated value of a top-tier starbase that provides truly BiC gearing is over $25,000. Twenty-five THOUSAND dollars. And if you are not lucky enough to be in a guild that has such access and aren't willing to fork out $20 bucks for a cash shop ship -- you will be wrecked in PvP and in Elite STG's.

 

A person who does not use the cash shop can try to grind to buy the stuff at pitiful efficiency. And the cash shop player with money to blow can literally BUY the currency that was SUPPOSED to represent time-gated effort and get all the best gear in the game.

 

In SWTOR, you can blow the entire national debt on the Market and not have one jot of endgame PVP gear or have access to anything else someone willing to grind slower can also get.

[MoltenRog]

Every currently available dread guard armoring, mod and enhancement, hilt and barrel, can be purchased with in game credits. The set bonus can be had via the free tionese commendations received at level 50.

 

Hence, you can sell Cartel Market items for in game credits, then use those credits to purchase maxed out gear.

 

Pay to Win.

 

Since Pay to Win only applies to Player Vs Player combat, This entire thread and anything you mention on PvE related subjects is case of invalidation, go look up pay to win bro.

 

Also since those mods are terrible for PvP, yeah qq more

Edited January 26, 2013 by MoltenRog

[AshlaBoga]

I dont really see it as pay to win currently. It's no different than people farming dailies or playing the GTN to get credits. The problem more lies in the ability to RE mods from top tier gear than the cash shop IMO.

 

You've got a point.

 

After a couple HM TFB runs everyone in my Ops group had nearly full DG (I think by the 3rd time round). That's because we can RE the mods and then craft them. Did I gear up via running the Op lots? Not really I ran it 3 times and ended up with 4/5 DG like everyone else in my group. Is that P2W? Nope.

[Icebergy]

Glorious exposition comrade

[Moza]

I do not feel it is pay to win in any fashion.

 

If I understand the precis of your argument it is that

 

a) players can acquire packs and items at monetary value and rapidly convert these to in-game credits at a faster rate than grinding dailies or GTN sales.

 

b) such accelerated advantage allows them to over-gear their characters at every level and give them some abilities to purchase 'end-game' mods such as 27 hilts, mods, etc

 

I find this to be not pay to win so much as fools separated from their money. Here is my precis in counterpoint:

 

a) Yes, CC can be used to acquire credits at a faster clip. The monetary cost for doing so is EXTREME. And as an end result, it takes me (if I am lucky with some packs) a few hours to raise 3 million credits from CC Sales -- except I also have to wait 24 hours to sell them. A purchase of 10 packs is likely to yield at least 4 to 5 good items, maybe a 5-pack of molecular stabilizers , and 1 , maybe 2 really high priced items. Assuming a best-case scenario, such a haul (a couple of thrones, a mask of nihilus, 10 molec stabls, some nice mounts, a valor bonus) might yield as much as 5 million credits.

 

A 27 hilt off the GTN will cost 1.5. High end mods will cost 700 to 800k. Mats for the ones that are not for sale will eat up a couple of million. In the end, none of the PVP gear is available with this, and ALL of the PvE gear that is can also be acquired , if slower, through just grinding.

 

b) It is not pay to win because of the fact that it's ingame. Compare to STO.

 

Pay to win implies the only possible way to achieve BiS / BiC / Best in Whatever is through the cash store. ALL of the best ships and almost all of the best equipment in STO can only be acquired through

 

a) the cash shop, directly

b) paying $$$ to open lottery boxes

c) paying $$$ for supplies at a ruinous cost to build up a fleet starbase and then equip it.

 

The estimated value of a top-tier starbase that provides truly BiC gearing is over $25,000. Twenty-five THOUSAND dollars. And if you are not lucky enough to be in a guild that has such access and aren't willing to fork out $20 bucks for a cash shop ship -- you will be wrecked in PvP and in Elite STG's.

 

A person who does not use the cash shop can try to grind to buy the stuff at pitiful efficiency. And the cash shop player with money to blow can literally BUY the currency that was SUPPOSED to represent time-gated effort and get all the best gear in the game.

 

In SWTOR, you can blow the entire national debt on the Market and not have one jot of endgame PVP gear or have access to anything else someone willing to grind slower can also get.

 

This is a really great argument. You're true to your name!

[Drudenfusz]

I am probably old school in this thought, but back in the day pay to win meant any item/gear you could buy from a sanctioned game market that increased your abilities beyond what you could do without the purchase of said item at said level.

But isn't that what happened now with the new speeder, which grands better protection than anything else in game?

 

Anyway, I can understand that peope are worried when the market offers also the best items available in game, because it is just a little step to go beyond that. And it feels like BioWare is testing the water, how far they can go without creating an outcry by the community.

 

So, I think it is godd thing we talk now about how worried we are what BioWare is doing, before they start going down a really terrible P2W road.

[Rerednaw]

Given the nature of the business model and direction perhaps it was inevitable.

 

I don't personally object. Let people play (or pay) the game they want.

 

The only P2W elements I am aware of are:

Tier 7 ship parts.

The new speeder. Superior performance (vs. getting shot off) than any other vehicle in the game.

Crystals. Level 50 stats at level 10.

 

But so far you don't need any of those items to get through the 1-50 story content. And that's why I play. For the story.

 

Besides the economy will have a crash-reset once the xpac goes live anyway.

[Swanea]

It's amazing that I actually believe you are NOT trolling and really think this is some HUGE issue affecting 99% of the games population.

 

So you COULD potentially sell your ingame cartel bought items for credits, then buy PvE armorings, and be able to do the high end raids a little bit faster. Great! I fail to see the problem. Can you buy a raid/guild that will take someone who has never done any of the raids and is most likely a terrible play for not knowing the game? Nope! You can't buy gear that is above what anyone else can get VERY EASILY. While I think allowing crafters to be able to craft the highest level armoring/mods/etc is both good and bad, it's hard to say this is really causing more then YOU to be upset over.

 

As I said before, pay to win, is to get gear that puts you above the power of anyone else of your level when they can not obtain the gear themselves without some STUPIDLY long (months+++) grind to catch up. It allows them to dominate other players or push raid content that no one else can do because they are a level above said raid content. Not true here. SO No worries!

[brtpp]

hmm ... didin't notticed any p2w policy in cartel market, just some not-so good eq and, some decoration stuff, nothign that have impact for this ppl who don't buy cc

[theSCARAYone]

Credits will not buy you dread guard gear. The CC gives you empty armor, some sets like the destroyer has mods in it but then again they only last for a few levels. So no, no pay to win. If you could pay to win then I wouldnt be grinding dailies and ops >_>

 

Credits can buy you dread guard gear, just no set bonus. You sell your CM stuff then buy 27 armoring mod enhance etc on the GTN boom theres the dread guard gear you paid $20 for.

 

Edit: Not to mention you could just buy mats for the gear. Sell a diplomats chair for 5 mil and theres a good 25 stabilizers.

Edited January 26, 2013 by theSCARAYone

[Alduinsm]

It's amazing that I actually believe you are NOT trolling and really think this is some HUGE issue affecting 99% of the games population.

 

So you COULD potentially sell your ingame cartel bought items for credits, then buy PvE armorings, and be able to do the high end raids a little bit faster. Great! I fail to see the problem. Can you buy a raid/guild that will take someone who has never done any of the raids and is most likely a terrible play for not knowing the game? Nope! You can't buy gear that is above what anyone else can get VERY EASILY. While I think allowing crafters to be able to craft the highest level armoring/mods/etc is both good and bad, it's hard to say this is really causing more then YOU to be upset over.

 

As I said before, pay to win, is to get gear that puts you above the power of anyone else of your level when they can not obtain the gear themselves without some STUPIDLY long (months+++) grind to catch up. It allows them to dominate other players or push raid content that no one else can do because they are a level above said raid content. Not true here. SO No worries!

 

+1

Skill is a major factor for end game raid beside gears.

[snakebam]

Its true you can buy full dread guard gear with credits and you can get credits by selling cartel market items. That does not mean its P2W since there are many ways you can get the same gear fast without spending real $ (well apart from sub). And in the end those that did buy gear the way OP says didn't win anything. No guild full of friends to play with, no codex full of achievements and no fun playing the game.

[Enako]

To summarize, in game currency is now sufficient to purchase the highest tier of gear for all PVE content. Since you can sell Cartel Market items for outlandish sums on the GTN, it is very easy for someone to turn real money into in game currency and then into in game items that improve their performance.

 

This is, of course, what is meant by Pay to Win. The only thing worse, and less subtle than the route Bioware has chosen to follow, would be to include the highest tier mods in the armor they sell on the Cartel Market. Bioware has chosen the smarter route, which is to allow players to handle the exchange themselves, thus avoiding the immediate ire of everyone who hates pay to win.

 

What do you think?

 

 

your problem stems from the fact that you think of games as something that needs to be 'won', and you think you need to spend 'effort' for it.

 

games are ENTERTAINMENT. you play a game, for ENTERTAINMENT. 'effort' and 'reward' are things that are reserved for workplace, school, 'real life'.

 

the act of playing a game is enjoyable because of the ACT of playing that game - immersion, enjoyment, story, events, atmosphere, interaction.

 

NOT your effort and a potential end reward. thats as if your momma rewarding you for tidying your room - its NOT fun.

 

so it doesnt matter zit if someone acquires some 'gear' (aka reward) without having to spend 'effort'. it means they are not playing the game as a rabbit running behind a carrot, but for entertainment.

[Jawstheshark]

I think the solution to all of this is just design things so the top tier of gear cannot have its pieces learned through reverse engineering.

 

I would not object to them making CM items BOP, but if they do the prices for some items really needs to come down quite a bit or up the Subscriber stipend.

[CorellianWannabe]

But by this spring a good chunk of the elder game will become non-end-game, and we'll start to progress beyond to level 55.

 

Just like all those other MMO's that evolve (like you know Molten Core in World of Warcraft, Plane of Hate in Everquest, it's all pretty long in the tooth right now).

 

Actually Bioware has said that end-game gear will not be made obsolete with the level raise. How that will work is anyone's guess.

[Bleeters]

I would not object to them making CM items BOP, but if they do the prices for some items really needs to come down quite a bit or up the Subscriber stipend.

I would. There is absolutely no way I am buying random item packs for what effectively constitutes real money in order to try and obtain the one specific item I actually want.

[magnashear]

I only read page one so sorry if this has already been brought up. I was wondering what is would cost to buy full min/max dread guard. Each armor/mod/enhancement/hilt/barrel is well over 1million credits isn't it ? So it could it cost upwards of 100million credits for everything.

 

I've spent $120 on cartel coins . I kept some things I wanted and sold the rest, some of which were big ticket items, and made about 4million credits. That means to get full dread guard could cost well over $1000.

 

 

I think if someone's free time is limited and they want to quickly experience the game content and they have money to burn then let em. It's just more money in bioware's coffers that hopefully they will use to further improve the game.

[KariTalRathe]

I think the solution to all of this is just design things so the top tier of gear cannot have its pieces learned through reverse engineering.

 

I would not object to them making CM items BOP, but if they do the prices for some items really needs to come down quite a bit or up the Subscriber stipend.

 

Why does it need a solution because a couple of people don't like it?

[SnoggyMack]

Credits can buy you dread guard gear, just no set bonus. You sell your CM stuff then buy 27 armoring mod enhance etc on the GTN boom theres the dread guard gear you paid $20 for.

 

Edit: Not to mention you could just buy mats for the gear. Sell a diplomats chair for 5 mil and theres a good 25 stabilizers.

 

You can get the set bonus for "free" at level 50 by getting the Tionese gear. And then equipping your rank 27 mods into that OOOOOOOGLY Tionese set.

 

Statswise, you're pushing dreadguard status.

 

Appearance-wise, well ...

 

Realistically though, it's just too expensive. The 27 mods are stupid expensive, and only a few items really sell for millions of creds each from the cartel packs. I think it'd be faster to just bite the bullet, and join a raiding guild and get the gear the old fashioned way, by raiding.

Edited January 26, 2013 by SnoggyMack

[Zuuf]

The amount of irrationality that spewed forth as attempts to counter the original argument absolutely floors me.

 

I'm working hard to push through and get my 63 gear though NiM Denova and HM Terror. I like the idea of it being a reward for my efforts. There is a large portion of the SWTOR populace, myself included, that sees the completion of the PvE operation content and filling out their gear with the latest gear from said content as "winning." To me, that reward is diminished if the same result can be achieved by someone paying a couple hundred dollars in real cash to buy cartel items, sell them, and purchase the armorings, mods, enhancements and barrels on the GTN.

 

Doesn't matter if you think Pay to Win is not the right description, or if you think that only PvP matters, doesn't matter if you think that 200 dollars is a huge amount of money (It's not, players with disposable income sometimes dump thousands of dollars on free-to-play games). What matters is that some of Bioware's paying customer base feel that their efforts are being diminished because someone who has money to burn in the real world can get the same gear without putting in the in-game effort.

 

If I inspect someone and see all 63 gear, that should be a reliable mechanism to determine that the player knows the operation content and doesn't have to be carried through it. Currently it's not.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Zuuf

[SnoggyMack]

Actually Bioware has said that end-game gear will not be made obsolete with the level raise. How that will work is anyone's guess.

 

It will be made obsolete eventually. That's how these games progress. The new "expansion" probably won't see level 63 items made obsolete on the day it launches. But people are going to want to raid and want new raids, and new gear from those new raids. So dread guard will eventually cease to be the top tier.

 

The stuff beneath dread guard? Is most likely going to shift on the day the expansion launches for sure. Tionese will be made obsolete by Makeb dropped level 55 blues.

 

The gear chain is going to shift.

Edited January 26, 2013 by SnoggyMack

[DawnAskham]

The amount of irrationality that spewed forth as attempts to counter the original argument absolutely floors me.

 

I'm working hard to push through and get my 63 gear though NiM Denova and HM Terror. I like the idea of it being a reward for my efforts. There is a large portion of the SWTOR populace, myself included, that sees the completion of the PvE operation content and filling out their gear with the latest gear from said content as "winning." To me, that reward is diminished if the same result can be achieved by someone paying a couple hundred dollars in real cash to buy cartel items, sell them, and purchase the armorings, mods, enhancements and barrels on the GTN.

 

Doesn't matter if you think Pay to Win is not the right description, or if you think that only PvP matters, doesn't matter if you think that 200 dollars is a huge amount of money (It's not, players with disposable income sometimes dump thousands of dollars on free-to-play games). What matters is that some of Bioware's paying customer base feel that their efforts are being diminished because someone who has money to burn in the real world can get the same gear without putting in the in-game effort.

 

If I inspect someone and see all 63 gear, that should be a reliable mechanism to determine that the player knows the operation content and doesn't have to be carried through it. Currently it's not.

 

QFT.

 

I already thought it was a bad idea to allow every BIS end game item to RE to a schematic, but this current situation makes playing the end game for progression sake an absolute joke.

 

Not only can players craft all BIS items, they can sell all of them for credits on the GTN, send all of their bound BIS mods to alts, and farm up steady supplies of mats through PVP, space missions, and drops in CM packs.

 

Add in the Cartel Market promoting the idea that players can buy CM items for real money to sell in game for credits, and we have a de facto system in place to buy end game BIS gear with real money.