Same gender romance discussion

[Xilizhra]

It's self-perpetuating by making itself seemingly invisible, then giving power to cishet white dudes who don't see it and having them yell "Well it wasn't a problem before/doesn't affect me".

 

As for Fabiyun's question about whether the men playing this game are ok with rape - there's a good chance (statistically speaking) that a reasonable portion of the male playerbase are rapists and/or rape apologists. Hell, some of them may even think this game needs more or overt rape. Because us nasty wimminz are coming in and playing "their" manly game.

That would be rather disturbing, proportionally speaking; how many men, in truth, are likely to be rape apologists?

[eartharioch]

It's self-perpetuating by making itself seemingly invisible, then giving power to cishet white dudes who don't see it and having them yell "Well it wasn't a problem before/doesn't affect me".

 

You are leaving out those of us who find the use of pseudo-scientific garbage words like 'cishet' to be inherently hostile, and therefore perceive the people using the term to be the de facto aggressors and the people against whom the term is used the de facto victims.

 

Seriously, there is already a six-letter two-syllable word for "normal" in the English language. You don't even have to use it -- if you don't specify otherwise, it's implied.

 

As far as people actively manifesting the mentality about which you are complaining, the term "dude-bro" seems to capture that quite well.

 

(This post is entirely a complaint about the use of the term 'cishet' and not an indication of hostility towards any *people*, whether posters in this thread or anywhere on the planet. It really makes it hard for me to take people using it seriously. I only see it being used by people when they are criticizing other people, and it's usually not even relevant. In this case, Tatile is calling out "cishet white dudes" even though the behavior about which she complains is not related. A "non-cishet black female" interested solely in making money and not caring about who it "harms" could just as easily be behind the behavior about which Tatile is complaining as "cishet white dudes". Thus, Tatile's choice to condemn the "cishet white dudes" appears to be motivated by a dislike of that group. I'd like to think that this appearance is misleading, which is why I am bringing up what causes that appearance.)

Edited February 8, 2014 by eartharioch

[Xilizhra]

You are leaving out those of us who find the use of pseudo-scientific garbage words like 'cishet' to be inherently hostile, and therefore perceive the people using the term to be the de facto aggressors and the people against whom the term is used the de facto victims.

"Cis" is a valid prefix, and if that's what you're upset about, then, well, I guess there's not much that can be done about that.

 

 

Seriously, there is already a six-letter two-syllable word for "normal" in the English language. You don't even have to use it -- if you don't specify otherwise, it's implied.

But because people with uncommon sexualities are still normally manifested, it wouldn't be accurate. The only one I can think of that would be is "common," and even that's a relative term.

 

 

(This post is entirely a complaint about the use of the term 'cishet' and not an indication of hostility towards any *people*, whether posters in this thread or anywhere on the planet. It really makes it hard for me to take people using it seriously. I only see it being used by people when they are criticizing other people, and it's usually not even relevant. In this case, Tatile is calling out "cishet white dudes" even though the behavior about which she complains is not related. A "non-cishet black female" interested solely in making money and not caring about who it "harms" could just as easily be behind the behavior about which Tatile is complaining as "cishet white dudes". Thus, Tatile's choice to condemn the "cishet white dudes" appears to be motivated by a dislike of that group. I'd like to think that this appearance is misleading, which is why I am bringing up what causes that appearance.)

It's possible... but notably less likely, especially since people will have different opinions on what'll make money.

[eartharioch]

"Cis" is a valid prefix, and if that's what you're upset about, then, well, I guess there's not much that can be done about that.

 

I'm not saying 'cishet' couldn't ever be used in an appropriate context, I'm saying I see it used here a lot and I've never seen anybody use it appropriately.

 

But because people with uncommon sexualities are still normally manifested, it wouldn't be accurate. The only one I can think of that would be is "common," and even that's a relative term.

 

What I'm saying is that in most cases (like this one), you don't need to use *any* special words.

 

It's possible... but notably less likely, especially since people will have different opinions on what'll make money.

 

"Likelihood" is irrelevant -- the complained-about behavior ("doesn't hurt me" attitude) is bad regardless of the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the offender, which is why I find the use of race-, gender-, and sexual-orientation-specific language to be inherently hostile.

[Alexhpy]

The game has so many serious problems... why bother them with this...

 

Also it might mess with the rating?(unsure about this but for a kid to see two guys kissing... it might confuse him)

[Tatile]

(This post is entirely a complaint about the use of the term 'cishet' and not an indication of hostility towards any *people*, whether posters in this thread or anywhere on the planet. It really makes it hard for me to take people using it seriously. I only see it being used by people when they are criticizing other people, and it's usually not even relevant. In this case, Tatile is calling out "cishet white dudes" even though the behavior about which she complains is not related. A "non-cishet black female" interested solely in making money and not caring about who it "harms" could just as easily be behind the behavior about which Tatile is complaining as "cishet white dudes". Thus, Tatile's choice to condemn the "cishet white dudes" appears to be motivated by a dislike of that group. I'd like to think that this appearance is misleading, which is why I am bringing up what causes that appearance.)

 

Statistically speaking, cisgender, heterosexual white males are more likely than other groups (or sections of those groups) to fall into the category of rapists or rape apologists*, and, as noted by women, members of the LGBT community and nerds of colour, cisgender, heterosexual white males are also more likely than other groups to be overtly and aggressively hostile to women, members of the LGBT community and nerds of colour who play video games or otherwise engage in nerd culture. Cisgender heterosexual white males are also disproportionately represented and pandered to in video games, films, comic books and other popular media. So, when I refer to "cishet white dudes", I am not doing so out of "motivated dislike of [cishet white dudes]" (certainly not as individuals), but rather what they represent (a very narrow-minded system which both aggressively and subtly excludes and craps on everyone else) and how, when an industry such as the video game industry, is filled almost to bursting with cishet white dudes - of which, I'm sure, you will find upstanding citizens who try their damned hardest to be inclusive - you are, statistically speaking, going to be running into men who are rape apologists, misogynists, racists, or just generally par-take of the "Boy's Club" culture without considering that there are, or could be, further repercussions.

 

But sure, let's discuss semantics, rather than the actual problem at stake, which is an insular industry which perpetuates an anti-inclusion culture through incestuous hiring practices and aggressive "Boy's Club"ing.

 

Recently Hayao Miyazaki pointed out that the problem with the anime industry is that it's full of otaku. Similar applies to the video game industry, I say.

 

 

*In the West, obviously.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Tatile

[fabiyun]

It is especially important to mention cishet men, because of the implications that are made; i.e. cishet men isn't the normal, so using the word normal to describe cishet men is at the very root of the problem, they are normalised, but they aren't normal, and to the marginalised it is important to make that disctinction and actually name things the way they are. If a person is offended by that, then clearly they need to check their privilege.

[Tatile]

I am amazed at the number of people who hate the word "cis". It's Latin - comes from "on the side of". Is used in chemistry. Is used in gender studies done by both psychologists and sociologists. I guess because "weirdoes" like me use it on the internet, rather than publish it in the everyman's favourite books, it must be an evil made up word.

[eartharioch]

But sure, let's discuss semantics, rather than the actual problem at stake, which is an insular industry which perpetuates an anti-inclusion culture through incestuous hiring practices and aggressive "Boy's Club"ing.

 

I think that continually using "fighting" words (and I mean everybody, not just you Tatile) creates an air of tension that makes it difficult to discuss the actual issues. If people feel they are being accused of a crime (especially one they didn't commit) simply by being a member of a group, they will be less likely to hear appeals to reason included with those attacks.

 

You can attack the "dude-bro" mentality without having to [appear to] attack all cis-gendered heterosexual white males.

 

I've read this thread for a while, and my irritation with what I perceive to be an aggressive and hostile "anti-cishet" attitude is not solely due to your (Tatile's) specific post, I just reached the point where I thought if I kept waiting to say something, I'd do it "less civilly" than this. (FYI, this decision was made in part after having watched the "Don't Feed The Trolls" speech you linked a few weeks ago.)

[Tatile]

Shall we then simply refer to the Patriarchy? As that system benefits from oppressing women, people of colour and LGBT individuals in different and varied ways and, typically, values whiteness, cis-maleness and heterosexuality above all other things, and even goes so far as to oppress cisgendered, heterosexual men by deeming certain aspects of human nature to be "weaknesses", like having emotions, by associating them with an oppressed group, unless of course it's (white) man-anger.

 

I should also mention that I refer to the cis-ness of men in this particular instant because though trans men can and do benefit from male privilege, they do not necessarily have the typified outlook of your typical cisgender man. And, before you start bellowing the virtues of cis men to me, know that my father is cisgender, as is my husband, and both recognise the gender oppression as perpetuated by the Patriarchy.

 

But my calling out of cis-ness is not so much to attack cis-individuals (I am one, after all), but to make it continually recognised that cis-privilege exists and affects the medium which we discuss, as well as how it is absorbed. Transphobia and transmisogyny* is rife within the games industry - both from developers and gamers - and we should not ignore this by saying that "people" work in the industry on a whole. No, there is a very specific type of "people" who work in the games industry, and they are in the majority cisgender, heterosexual white men.

 

*You don't have to be saying "transgender people are disgusting" as GTAV does for this to be true

[fabiyun]

Wow cishet white men thinking they are marginalised when their privileged position is being named, nothing new, get over it. (In the week of Piers Morgan gate, this is not surprising especially)

 

Oh and while we're at it. These forums are a discussion place for anything that is cishet white male. Every other topic gets deleted or referred to this thread. But do continue to tell marginalised people that they need to take your privilege into account and give you the privilege you deserve in the single place they can post! They much appreciate it.

[Dethmold]

...So, this is the SGR discussion thread?

I'm sensing that this might be a bad time to try and ask how things are going for everybody.

Not sure how this ended up with you guys calling your fellow players "rape apologists", but I might have to read a few more pages back on this one. I just hope the tumblr feminists have only recently decided to jump in, so I won't have to go through a hundred and more pages of this while reading back far enough to bring me up to speed. But judging from the general mood I'm guessing nothing much has changed since the Makeb update.

[mikphobos]

is BW adding more SGR in the future? or all is gonna stay on makeb? its kinda silly.. that it stays only on makeb, i cant even describe all bad thoughts that come to my mind if they dont add more in diferent places.. in the new planets and xpacs... what you think guys?

[Palar]

...So, this is the SGR discussion thread?

I'm sensing that this might be a bad time to try and ask how things are going for everybody.

Not sure how this ended up with you guys calling your fellow players "rape apologists", but I might have to read a few more pages back on this one. I just hope the tumblr feminists have only recently decided to jump in, so I won't have to go through a hundred and more pages of this while reading back far enough to bring me up to speed. But judging from the general mood I'm guessing nothing much has changed since the Makeb update.

 

Only a few pages back, I think, but 'that escalated quickly' so I'm not sure either.

 

A quick summary since Makeb: "We're sorry you were disappointed by what actually came with RotHC, but we hope for better balance next time." No clarification on what they mean by balance (simply swapping the Makeb orientations so Pubs get one gay male and the Imps welcome Little Miss Bi, to 'balance' the factions, or an even spread); and 'next time' turned out to be the GS thing. That was over a year ago, so I guess the new goal-post is June or whenever they go into detail about this year's DLC.

[fabiyun]

They've been promising SGR(A) stuff since launch, but it hasn't really happened the way most of us would have like to see it, i.e. with companions. There's an NPC flirt with Makeb, a flirt on the Bounty Event and a bisexual flirt with the female quest giver of Czerka.

 

I don't know what the future will hold really, Oricon didn't see any flirts, BW's said there'll be another Makeb sized expansion this year, and we'll have to see what will happen there, there might be one flirt there too. Or maybe not. But I very much doubt there'll be an SGRA companion with it.

[Tatile]

...So, this is the SGR discussion thread?

I'm sensing that this might be a bad time to try and ask how things are going for everybody.

 

Well, considering that we've got no response from Mr. Musco in nearly a year of asking (since the NDA dropped and Dulfy posted), it's not going so well.

 

Also, given that Bioware have decided to scrap story content in favour of... whatever it is they're doing now, we don't have much to discuss.

 

I am currently testing the theory that the moderators only pay attention to the General Discussion forums, though. I realise that it's the weekend and no one's in, so currently going off on a cynical tangent about the pro-gay adverts surrounding Sochi in an otherwise stubbornly hetero-centric media wouldn't have much in the way of results.

[vadess]

 

I am currently testing the theory that the moderators only pay attention to the General Discussion forums, though. I realise that it's the weekend and no one's in, so currently going off on a cynical tangent about the pro-gay adverts surrounding Sochi in an otherwise stubbornly hetero-centric media wouldn't have much in the way of results.

 

How are you testing it?

[Tatile]

How are you testing it?

 

Ahh, see the post that everyone's now fussing over.

 

Also, I'm like 50% sure I've used the word "cl*toris* in this thread somewhere. And let's not forget being "wildly off topic" by debating the representation of women in this game, mentioning the depiction and use of POC in media and all the occasions we've gone off on tangents about the games industry.

 

I mean, if we want to go back to the "If the player base really is 99.99% heterosexual cisgender white men (as we are led to believe by vocal participants of the mentioned group and marketers and developers within the industry), who wish it to remain that way by being verbally and socially aggressive and abusive to persons who do not fit into that category" we can start pulling up actual statistics and discuss them.

 

And yeah, if there are vocal gamers - not necessarily of this game, but in the industry as a whole - who say that games "should" be for cisgender, heterosexual white men, and cater and represent only them, then it stands to reason that of those vocal gamers, and their supporters, there will be those who are overtly homophobic, misogynist, racist, transphobic and transmisogynist. That does not mean all gamers are those things, or that all cisgender, heterosexual white men are those things, but if a narrow band is catered to and tacitly told "your views are ok, your views are what we want" then they will remain, their views will be more popular (why would a woman want to work in an environment that produces aggressive, violent, anti-woman material? Yes, Eartharioc might want to point out the purist capitalist, but that's an individual) by the incestuous system I previously mentioned.

 

As you can see by the DC "find an artist" competition that called for highly sexualised, suicide-themed images of Harley Quinn, having a woman on board does not necessarily mean that you're suddenly going to end up with all rainbows and butterflies, but also - as noted in that *********** story i can't find at the minute it's the game studio one with the scene that reads like a rape scene but none of the male writers noticed until the women on the team pointed it out - women can and do also bring a different perspective to writing and development that otherwise might not be there.

 

I mean, ****, regardless of whether or not you like Woody Allen or have been paying attention, it's a little worrying how many men in the entertainment industry are coming out in his support by blaming Dylan Farrow. Or her mother.

 

FOUND IT

 

As it happened, most of the guys went first. Typical stuff— some stuff was good, some stuff needed work, etc. etc. Then one of the female writers went, and she brought up an issue. A big issue. It had to do with a sexual situation in the plot, which she explained could easily be interpreted as a form of rape.

 

It wasn’t intended that way. In fact, the writer of the plot was mortified. The intention was that it come across as creepy and subverting… but authorial intention is often irrelevant, and we must always consider how what we write will be interpreted. In this case, it was not a long trip for the person playing through the plot to see what was happening at a slightly different angle, and it was no longer good-creepy. It was bad-creepy. It was discomforting and not cool at all. And this female writer was not alone. All the other women at the table nodded their heads, and had noted the same thing in their critiques. So we discussed it, changes were made, and everything was better. Crisis averted.

 

All good, right? That’s what these reviews are for.

 

Here’s the thing: after the meeting was over, it struck me how sharply divided the reviewers were on gender lines. The guys involved, all reasonable and liberal-minded fellows I assure you (including me!) all automatically took the intended viewpoint of the author and didn’t see the issue. The girls had all taken the other side of the encounter, and saw it completely differently— all of them. As soon as it was pointed out, it was obvious… but why hadn’t we seen it?

 

And this thought occurred as well: if this had been a team with no female perspective present, it would have gone into the game that way. Had that female writer been the lone woman, would her view have been disregarded as an over-reaction? A lone outlier? How often does that happen on game development teams, ones made up of otherwise intelligent and liberal guys who are then shocked to find out that they inadvertently offended a group that is quickly approaching half of the gaming audience?

 

(Emphasis preserved.)

Edited February 9, 2014 by Tatile

[Xilizhra]

Ahh, see the post that everyone's now fussing over.

 

Also, I'm like 50% sure I've used the word "cl*toris* in this thread somewhere. And let's not forget being "wildly off topic" by debating the representation of women in this game, mentioning the depiction and use of POC in media and all the occasions we've gone off on tangents about the games industry.

 

I mean, if we want to go back to the "If the player base really is 99.99% heterosexual cisgender white men (as we are led to believe by vocal participants of the mentioned group and marketers and developers within the industry), who wish it to remain that way by being verbally and socially aggressive and abusive to persons who do not fit into that category" we can start pulling up actual statistics and discuss them.

 

And yeah, if there are vocal gamers - not necessarily of this game, but in the industry as a whole - who say that games "should" be for cisgender, heterosexual white men, and cater and represent only them, then it stands to reason that of those vocal gamers, and their supporters, there will be those who are overtly homophobic, misogynist, racist, transphobic and transmisogynist. That does not mean all gamers are those things, or that all cisgender, heterosexual white men are those things, but if a narrow band is catered to and tacitly told "your views are ok, your views are what we want" then they will remain, their views will be more popular (why would a woman want to work in an environment that produces aggressive, violent, anti-woman material? Yes, Eartharioc might want to point out the purist capitalist, but that's an individual) by the incestuous system I previously mentioned.

 

As you can see by the DC "find an artist" competition that called for highly sexualised, suicide-themed images of Harley Quinn, having a woman on board does not necessarily mean that you're suddenly going to end up with all rainbows and butterflies, but also - as noted in that *********** story i can't find at the minute it's the game studio one with the scene that reads like a rape scene but none of the male writers noticed until the women on the team pointed it out - women can and do also bring a different perspective to writing and development that otherwise might not be there.

 

I mean, ****, regardless of whether or not you like Woody Allen or have been paying attention, it's a little worrying how many men in the entertainment industry are coming out in his support by blaming Dylan Farrow. Or her mother.

 

Which post is being widely fussed over?

[Tatile]

Which post is being widely fussed over?

 

Oh Dethmold is saying I called every guy playing this game a ******

[drakensang]

Nevermind. Edited February 9, 2014 by drakensang

[vadess]

Oh Dethmold is saying I called every guy playing this game a ******

 

What page is it on? As I can't find it. And it kind of doesn't answer my question. How are you going to test that the developers mostly read what's in the general discussion thread?

[eartharioch]

Shall we then simply refer to the Patriarchy? As that system benefits from oppressing women, people of colour and LGBT individuals in different and varied ways and, typically, values whiteness, cis-maleness and heterosexuality above all other things, and even goes so far as to oppress cisgendered, heterosexual men by deeming certain aspects of human nature to be "weaknesses", like having emotions, by associating them with an oppressed group, unless of course it's (white) man-anger.

 

Yes; I don't see being part of (or a beneficiary) of a system as an inherent quality that I possess, so I don't take it personally, at least on the same level as having a race, gender, and sexual orientation (as in the former is determined by society, the latter my DNA).

[Dethmold]

Only a few pages back, I think, but 'that escalated quickly' so I'm not sure either.

 

A quick summary since Makeb: "We're sorry you were disappointed by what actually came with RotHC, but we hope for better balance next time." No clarification on what they mean by balance (simply swapping the Makeb orientations so Pubs get one gay male and the Imps welcome Little Miss Bi, to 'balance' the factions, or an even spread); and 'next time' turned out to be the GS thing. That was over a year ago, so I guess the new goal-post is June or whenever they go into detail about this year's DLC.

 

That's...rather depressing, to say the least. If they decided to drop story content in favor of their PVP space battle expansions, there's no telling how far down the list SGR companions have gone for them.

 

On a sidenote; how many of you would play through all the old class story content again, if they just rigged the already known companions to become SGR? Just curious, I'm sure most, if not all of you already played through every class story there is.

 

What page is it on?

 

I think she meant my confusion with this post, about 2-3 pages back.

 

As for Fabiyun's question about whether the men playing this game are ok with rape - there's a good chance (statistically speaking) that a reasonable portion of the male playerbase are rapists and/or rape apologists. Hell, some of them may even think this game needs more or overt rape. Because us nasty wimminz are coming in and playing "their" manly game.

 

Which, to be fair, I did not really bother looking through whatever started that train of thought, so I might have missed the point she was trying to make there. It was just a weird way to get introduced to the SGR thread, while I was trying to figure out if there had been any progress on this matter, aside from the rather embarrassing attempt that was planet Makeb.

[Tatile]

Sorry about that - we do go off on very long tangents because otherwise we're talking around in circles of "Yes? No."

 

So, quick update:

Bioware have not given any new information.

No new information is likely to come in the forseeable future.

Bioware have cancelled story content.

Bioware seem to be concentrating on making bisexual female NPCs when they consider adding in SGR-[Flirt] options. (See the Imperial Czerka lady and two [Flirt] options for women NPCs in the BBA versus one for a male NPC.)