Same gender romance discussion

[Xilizhra]

Sorry about that - we do go off on very long tangents because otherwise we're talking around in circles of "Yes? No."

 

So, quick update:

Bioware have not given any new information.

No new information is likely to come in the forseeable future.

Bioware have cancelled story content.

Bioware seem to be concentrating on making bisexual female NPCs when they consider adding in SGR-[Flirt] options. (See the Imperial Czerka lady and two [Flirt] options for women NPCs in the BBA versus one for a male NPC.)

Keep in mind that our gaming experience isn't concretely affected by them being bisexual rather than homosexual, so it would seem to be a tiny bit hypocritical to advocate that all previous romance options should have been bi (which they should have been) but then complain about it here.

 

On a sidenote; how many of you would play through all the old class story content again, if they just rigged the already known companions to become SGR? Just curious, I'm sure most, if not all of you already played through every class story there is.

I play this game rather slowly, so I've only gone through much of the Inquisitor and Consular storylines. I actually wouldn't need to replay the Consular because I haven't gotten Nadia Grell yet, but I would replay the Inquisitor. I'd also immediately play the Smuggler and Agent... but maybe the Jedi Knight before them.

[Tatile]

Keep in mind that our gaming experience isn't concretely affected by them being bisexual rather than homosexual, so it would seem to be a tiny bit hypocritical to advocate that all previous romance options should have been bi (which they should have been) but then complain about it here.

 

I'm not complaining about them being bisexual, but the fact that it seems that only the women are bisexual. I do heavily believe that "herosexual" (it's already in the god damn game anyway) is the answer to the game's romance woes, but the fact that only female NPCs thus far have been introduced to the game as bisexual is concerning, because it reinforces several anti-woman notions we've seen in the game already.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not complaining about them being bisexual, but the fact that it seems that only the women are bisexual. I do heavily believe that "herosexual" (it's already in the gosh darn game anyway) is the answer to the game's romance woes, but the fact that only female NPCs thus far have been introduced to the game as bisexual is concerning, because it reinforces several anti-woman notions we've seen in the game already.

In this case, I'd think the oddity is more that no men are bisexual. The only way I'd see it as damaging to have women be bisexual is for it to come across that they're not seriously attracted to women in the same way as men.

[fabiyun]

Yes; I don't see being part of (or a beneficiary) of a system as an inherent quality that I possess, so I don't take it personally, at least on the same level as having a race, gender, and sexual orientation (as in the former is determined by society, the latter my DNA).

 

Ehm what?

 

Being the beneficiary of a system is an inherent quality you poses, you have to do nothing to receive it.

 

Are you trying to say that cis-het whiteness is in your DNA? That's very offensive. Whiteness has nothing to do with DNA, race is a social construct and colour is too. In fact in America a lot of people with light skins, are white in Europe, but Hispanic in America and treated accordingly (i.e. with racism, less than other white people). Also in America not even a century ago Irish people, Italian people, Russian people, Polish people, were not considered white people. White people, in the colonies, are traditionally only people from English, Scottish, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Dutch, Belgian, German and French decent. All other "caucasian" people are people of colour, i.e. not white people. In Europe not every person with a light skin is a white person. Eastern European people, Turkish people, any people from countries before the EU Enlargement are considered non-white people. Whiteness is a system of oppression that has nothing to do with DNA.

 

Cisness is a system of oppression that has nothing to do with gender-identity or DNA. And gender is not in your DNA! Gender is an identity, it is different from sex. And sex is only biological, it is not gender, it has nothing to do with gender-expression or gender-identity and it does not reflect how people feel. You can be male and have a cl*toris, or any other combination, or one may be intersex. It has nothing to with DNA. It has everything to do with society and systems of oppression.

 

As a person of privilege you can decide to be offended by being called out on your privilege, that's a choice, a choice people whom are marginalised do not have.

 

 

And an FYI to everybody, you are on the internet! It is one of the most liberating and educating advancements ever made. Use it! Google is very easy to navigate to, you may use it daily! It can help you find a wealth of information.

[fabiyun]

In this case, I'd think the oddity is more that no men are bisexual. The only way I'd see it as damaging to have women be bisexual is for it to come across that they're not seriously attracted to women in the same way as men.

 

The problem with it is that women have to at all times be men's sexual object. The default in this game is male, therefor a few men may be available to men, men are the default after all, and all women need to be available to men, men need to be pleased. It didn't come to the minds of the men that perhaps women playing the game might also like to romance men, so the male NPC are therefor not bisexual. But since they had to put in SGR flirts, a lesbian was made, but hey! *** why can't men romance the *****, men need to romance the *****, what about men?! So Lesbians don't exist, all girls are bisexual. It's sexism. On every level. Men are the default, everything female needs to please men, female exists for males.

[Jandi]

Where's all the ladyboys?

[Xilizhra]

Ehm what?

 

Being the beneficiary of a system is an inherent quality you poses, you have to do nothing to receive it.

 

Are you trying to say that cis-het whiteness is in your DNA? That's very offensive. Whiteness has nothing to do with DNA, race is a social construct and colour is too. In fact in America a lot of people with light skins, are white in Europe, but Hispanic in America and treated accordingly (i.e. with racism, less than other white people). Also in America not even a century ago Irish people, Italian people, Russian people, Polish people, were not considered white people. White people, in the colonies, are traditionally only people from English, Scottish, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Dutch, Belgian, German and French decent. All other "caucasian" people are people of colour, i.e. not white people. In Europe not every person with a light skin is a white person. Eastern European people, Turkish people, any people from countries before the EU Enlargement are considered non-white people. Whiteness is a system of oppression that has nothing to do with DNA.

 

Cisness is a system of oppression that has nothing to do with gender-identity or DNA. And gender is not in your DNA! Gender is an identity, it is different from sex. And sex is only biological, it is not gender, it has nothing to do with gender-expression or gender-identity and it does not reflect how people feel. You can be male and have a cl*toris, or any other combination, or one may be intersex. It has nothing to with DNA. It has everything to do with society and systems of oppression.

 

As a person of privilege you can decide to be offended by being called out on your privilege, that's a choice, a choice people whom are marginalised do not have.

 

 

And an FYI to everybody, you are on the internet! It is one of the most liberating and educating advancements ever made. Use it! Google is very easy to navigate to, you may use it daily! It can help you find a wealth of information.

Er... what you might call an ethnicity is a social construct, but your physical ethnic features are genetically determined.

 

And did you mean "cissexism" for "cisness?" Because just being cisgendered isn't oppressive.

[eartharioch]

Ehm what?

 

Being the beneficiary of a system is an inherent quality you poses, you have to do nothing to receive it.

 

Are you trying to say that cis-het whiteness is in your DNA? That's very offensive. Whiteness has nothing to do with DNA, race is a social construct and colour is too. In fact in America a lot of people with light skins, are white in Europe, but Hispanic in America and treated accordingly (i.e. with racism, less than other white people). Also in America not even a century ago Irish people, Italian people, Russian people, Polish people, were not considered white people. White people, in the colonies, are traditionally only people from English, Scottish, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Dutch, Belgian, German and French decent. All other "caucasian" people are people of colour, i.e. not white people. In Europe not every person with a light skin is a white person. Eastern European people, Turkish people, any people from countries before the EU Enlargement are considered non-white people. Whiteness is a system of oppression that has nothing to do with DNA.

 

Cisness is a system of oppression that has nothing to do with gender-identity or DNA. And gender is not in your DNA! Gender is an identity, it is different from sex. And sex is only biological, it is not gender, it has nothing to do with gender-expression or gender-identity and it does not reflect how people feel. You can be male and have a cl*toris, or any other combination, or one may be intersex. It has nothing to with DNA. It has everything to do with society and systems of oppression.

 

As a person of privilege you can decide to be offended by being called out on your privilege, that's a choice, a choice people whom are marginalised do not have.

 

 

And an FYI to everybody, you are on the internet! It is one of the most liberating and educating advancements ever made. Use it! Google is very easy to navigate to, you may use it daily! It can help you find a wealth of information.

 

I'm really not sure how to respond to this verbal diarrhea, however since you seem to think that everything to know about the subjects can be gained from a quick Google search, I'll just go with "L2Read". Seriously, you are one of the most ignorant people I've read lately, and I read the PVP forums daily.

 

BTW, yes, "whiteness" is in DNA. It's called skin color. When Tatile called out "cishet white dudes", she was referring to skin color. My replies have been to her, so I replied using the words she used. If you don't like the fact that she is talking about "white" (as opposed to Caucasion, Italian, hispanic, etc.),take it up with her, don't lecture *me*.

 

I don't feel like lecturing you on the rest, feel free to stop back in after you've digested today's lesson.

Edited February 10, 2014 by eartharioch

[fabiyun]

Er... what you might call an ethnicity is a social construct, but your physical ethnic features are genetically determined.

 

And did you mean "cissexism" for "cisness?" Because just being cisgendered isn't oppressive.

 

Cisgender is used as a tool of oppression.

 

Ethnicity is also a social construct. In fact, even Wikipedia calls it: "Ethnicity or ethnic group is a social group of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, cultural, social, or national experience. (Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language (dialect), or ideology, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.)"

To rephrase: Ethnicity is a social construct with mechanisms of inclusion and exclusion using a framework of criteria determined by those most privileged.

Now ethnicity is in itself a laden term. That is because whiteness is an ethnicity, though it does not describe itself as such, instead it labels everything else as "ethnic" with which it excludes everything non-white from whiteness and marginalises it. Ethnicity is more often than not only used as a nicer word than race. Ethnic is used in similar ways as words like tribal, as a means to other and exotify people, it has to many non-white people a negative connotation because white people use words like ethnic to put other people lower on the social scale than them. Whiteness is the standard, it doesn't need a name, it is the normal, everything else is ethnic, different, not the norm, a bit strange, or exotic, or less civilised.

 

It is important to pay attention to Intersectionality. An ethnic group can be both oppressed and or marginalised by another group, and yet use the same mechanisms of inclusion and exclusion to oppress and or marginalise others.

[fabiyun]

I'm really not sure how to respond to this verbal diarrhea, however since you seem to think that everything to know about the subjects can be gained from a quick Google search, I'll just go with "L2Read". Seriously, you are one of the most ignorant people I've read lately, and I read the PVP forums daily.

 

Ah, you must've gotten everything you've learned from the PVP Forums then, that explains it.

[Xilizhra]

Cisgender is used as a tool of oppression.

 

Ethnicity is also a social construct. In fact, even Wikipedia calls it: "Ethnicity or ethnic group is a social group of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, cultural, social, or national experience. (Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language (dialect), or ideology, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.)"

To rephrase: Ethnicity is a social construct with mechanisms of inclusion and exclusion using a framework of criteria determined by those most privileged.

Now ethnicity is in itself a laden term. That is because whiteness is an ethnicity, though it does not describe itself as such, instead it labels everything else as "ethnic" with which it excludes everything non-white from whiteness and marginalises it. Ethnicity is more often than not only used as a nicer word than race. Ethnic is used in similar ways as words like tribal, as a means to other and exotify people, it has to many non-white people a negative connotation because white people use words like ethnic to put other people lower on the social scale than them. Whiteness is the standard, it doesn't need a name, it is the normal, everything else is ethnic, different, not the norm, a bit strange, or exotic, or less civilised.

 

It is important to pay attention to Intersectionality. An ethnic group can be both oppressed and or marginalised by another group, and yet use the same mechanisms of inclusion and exclusion to oppress and or marginalise others.

My only point was that genes will mostly determine what you look like.

[fabiyun]

My only point was that genes will mostly determine what you look like.

 

Ah yes it does.

[eartharioch]

Ah yes it does.

 

Why am I imagining Dr. Seuss's The Grinch, but with a light bulb instead of a heart?

 

Seriously, you wrote all that garbage above and only now get what I meant by DNA?

[Nydus]

This is too funny. A thread about adding SGR to SW:TOR has now about 'ethnicity being a social construct' and statements like 'heterosexual white males are rape apologist' are being casually thrown around.

 

Look, I'm not captain social conscience and I'm more amused by this discussion than anything, but you'd think that in an age of falling male income, employment, university enrollment, and the increasing incidence of male deformity, infertility, and low health that people would clue in that our society is beginning to fail our young boys almost as badly as it once failed, and admittedly continues to fail in many respects, our young girls.

 

Or is suggesting that we be concerned for both genders heteronormative and indicative that I am full of cisness?

 

- Arcada

[Xilizhra]

This is too funny. A thread about adding SGR to SW:TOR has now about 'ethnicity being a social construct' and statements like 'heterosexual white males are rape apologist' are being casually thrown around.

 

Look, I'm not captain social conscience and I'm more amused by this discussion than anything, but you'd think that in an age of falling male income, employment, university enrollment, and the increasing incidence of male deformity, infertility, and low health that people would clue in that our society is beginning to fail our young boys almost as badly as it once failed, and admittedly continues to fail in many respects, our young girls.

 

Or is suggesting that we be concerned for both genders heteronormative and indicative that I am full of cisness?

 

- Arcada

We can be concerned for both genders, yes, but male problems aren't a function of feminism. Their source is frequently the same as the source for female ones.

[Nydus]

We can be concerned for both genders, yes, but male problems aren't a function of feminism. Their source is frequently the same as the source for female ones.

 

Who is suggesting they are? I'm not really offended by people advocating for women's issues. I want my children, male or female, to each have an opportunity to succeed in life.

 

This isn't a *pick a side* issue to me.

 

- Arcada

[eartharioch]

Who is suggesting they are? I'm not really offended by people advocating for women's issues. I want my children, male or female, to each have an opportunity to succeed in life.

 

This isn't a *pick a side* issue to me.

 

- Arcada

 

Don't worry, depending on whom you ask, you don't need to pick a side, you get assigned one at birth.

[Jandi]

Please stop this train of discussion before I say something that will get me banned

[Nydus]

Don't worry, depending on whom you ask, you don't need to pick a side, you get assigned one at birth.

 

A slightly combative mentality . Personally, I'm fairly certain the point of life is gene transfer, which means I'm a representation of genes passed to me by mother and father, and I shall hopefully pass those genes down with a special lady friend to children, who may be male or female.

 

Evolution often puts these arguments in their proper place.

 

- Arcada

Edited February 10, 2014 by Nydus

[Xilizhra]

A slightly combative mentality . Personally, I'm fairly certain the point of life is gene transfer, which means I'm a representation of genes passed to me by mother and father, and I shall hopefully pass those genes down with a special lady friend to children, who may be male or female.

 

Evolution often puts these arguments in their proper place.

 

- Arcada

I do not believe that the point of life is gene transfer, in part because my genes suck and I don't want to pass them on.

[Nydus]

I do not believe that the point of life is gene transfer, in part because my genes suck and I don't want to pass them on.

 

"Gene Transfer" is of course an over-simplification; it is generally accepted these days that one can participate in the evolutionary process without having any offspring of their own. We could have an interesting discussion here, but I think this thread is already widely off-topic so I'm going to retreat at this point. Next thing we know I'll be debating a young-earth creationist .

 

- Arcada

[Tatile]

Hey, posters? More than two genders, more than two sexes. We've gone over this before. The game is using a binary system, but we needn't.

[vadess]

Actually, I think they are making more story. The twitter pages for the main writers in SWTOR recorded they ahve been in voice acting sessions for the actors, such as the trooper.

 

Tip for people following this thread: Don't be too be dependant on the forums for information. Follow the writers and developers twitter pages as they often send tweets about what they're doing while working for SWTOR.

 

See:

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2014/01/charles-boyd-tweets-about-new-voice-recording-for-swtor.html

[Khevar]

Hey, posters? More than two genders, more than two sexes. We've gone over this before. The game is using a binary system, but we needn't.

I apologize if this question is terribly ignorant, but what do you mean by more than two sexes? I understand about more than two genders, but wouldn't two sexes refer to biology?

[Tatile]

I apologize if this question is terribly ignorant, but what do you mean by more than two sexes? I understand about more than two genders, but wouldn't two sexes refer to biology?

 

Intersex is now recognised by most medical bodies as being a "third" sex - it actually refers to a scale of genital presentation and chromosomes. The understanding of XX and XY is simplistic, instances of XXY or XXX can be fairly common, and can and do have effects on the hormones produced during gestation (all fetuses tend to start as "female" with the testes in the body in the case of XY-based set-ups) and then during puberty. You can have people who are XY in their chromosomes, but end up with an otherwise female body due to hormone hiccups - the testes never start their descent in the womb and remain kind of like proto-ovaries, resulting in female genitals.

 

I did link to an Intersex website which covered how the chromosomes and physical attributes scale, but that was a few pages back, and I can link (and find) them if any body would like.

 

Intersex is often cited in cases when people say that sex is itself a "social construct" because for many decades it used to be that - without even the consent of the parents - doctors would "correct" ambiguous genitals in new-born children. Such as if a male child was born with a particularly small pen*s, it might have been cut off, and similarly for a female child with a large cl*toris, that would have been reduced. These days such practices are, I believe, illegal in most western countries and considered as genital mutilation.