Same gender romance discussion

[Jandi]

The show "What Would You Do?" lead me a bit to that conclusion, not going to lie. But given what's been said... I don't understand why Bioware caved to pressure somewhere outside of the stupidity explanation lol.

 

They cut a lot of stuff out due to EA wanting the game out and since then, they've had to fire a vast majority of the team and to put many features on hold indefinitely.

 

For the game to even survive, they need to push out new FPs, Operations and daily areas on a semi-regular basis in addition to working on the next expansion. These things are not optional additions if they wish to keep the playerbase, that's the reality of MMOs such as TOR where content relies entirely on the dev team.

 

What money they have left over in the budget, if any, is tightly priotized and some features are just not very high on the list. It would be actual stupidity to devote resources out of a small pool into something that is a one-off experience that a minotity will partake in.

 

So, next time you think someone or something is stupid, take a moment to consider more than simple factors.

[Nydus]

Uggg...

 

I think it is fairly obvious what happened; BioWare bowed to political pressure from EA (a la Mass Effect 2) and did not write in SGR. They've now regained some backbone and are trying inject it into new content (but are having difficulty doing that since the new content isn't exactly that character and plot specific).

 

They've put themselves in a bit of a pickle. If they do decide to add new companions in the future where SGR is possible, I think we all know how that is going to be labelled in the media. OMG... PARENTS! BIOWARE ADDS CHARACTERS THAT WILL TURN YOUR KIDS GAY!

 

They really can't win.

 

- Arcada

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nydus

[Tatile]

David Gaider gives his view - as well as the mechanical problems - on the 'gay toggle' debate on his tumblr:

 

http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/73640876912/on-the-toggle-solution

 

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?”

 

So yeah, when EA is LGBT-friendly (turning up to stuff like Gaymer Con) and Bioware - Original themselves are LGB-inclusive, even down to their writers, why do people think they can go "waah, gays!" and get an anti-gay toggle over here? Yes, Austin dismissed SGRA during development - not great, no - but that also means that along with the mentioned problems, the game wouldn't support such exclusion in the coding. And yeah, if they can get an anti-gay toggle, why can't I turn all the principle male NPCs to be made female? Their gender is meaningless.

 

 

 

Uggg...

 

I think it is fairly obvious what happened; BioWare bowed to political pressure from EA (a la Mass Effect 2) and did not write in SGR. They've now regained some backbone and are trying inject it into new content (but are having difficulty doing that since the new content isn't exactly that character and plot specific).

 

They've put themselves in a bit of a pickle. If they do decide to add new companions in the future where SGR is possible, I think we all know how that is going to be labelled in the media. OMG... PARENTS! BIOWARE ADDS CHARACTERS THAT WILL TURN YOUR KIDS GAY!

 

They really can't win.

 

- Arcada

 

Already had that "waah, gays!" debacle with the announcement of Makeb - bunch of "Waah, Gay Planet!" crap from various news sources. Admittedly Bioware didn't help that much by only having SGR options on Makeb, but you'll also notice that aforementioned "news" sources didn't get their panties in a bunch over the SGR-[Flirt]s available in the monthly BBA event. Imagine the headlines: MONTHLY GAYS COME OUT. MONTHLY GAYS IN STAR WARS. 12 GAY MONTHS IN STAR WARS. etc. etc.

 

I can't speak for EA, I'm not American and I haven't played Mass Effect. However, they seem to be working for a better reception with LGB (though likely not so much T) players - one might be cynical and say this is over money, but let's be honest, they're capitalists.

 

(Actually, I think I realised I do not have a career ahead of me in sensationalism.)

Edited January 17, 2014 by Tatile

[Nydus]

Imagine the headlines: MONTHLY GAYS COME OUT. MONTHLY GAYS IN STAR WARS. 12 GAY MONTHS IN STAR WARS. etc. etc.

 

Hey, if they want to demonstrate some b@!!$s perhaps they should do just that. I personally don't think it is a big deal.

 

I can't speak for EA, I'm not American and I haven't played Mass Effect. However, they seem to be working for a better reception with LGB (though likely not so much T) players - one might be cynical and say this is over money, but let's be honest, they're capitalists.

 

I think when push comes to shove, BW (rightly) eventually ends up on the side of the LGBT community. However, it is often viewed as too little, too late.

 

BTW... is gender change possible in the game? We can change species. OMG STAR WARS WANTS TO TURN YOUR BOY INTO A GIRL!

 

- Arcada

[Nydus]

Oh BTW, I think you should all end up facing a Court Martial in the game for romancing anyone under your command, as outlined in the statutes governing any modern military.

 

- Arcada

[Tatile]

BTW... is gender change possible in the game? We can change species. OMG STAR WARS WANTS TO TURN YOUR BOY INTO A GIRL!

 

- Arcada

 

Actually that's a game mechanics issue - they designed the game extremely poorly in that vein. The story apparently can't handle it and can neither can the existing "women get less cloth" armour.

[Jandi]

Oh BTW, I think you should all end up facing a Court Martial in the game for romancing anyone under your command, as outlined in the statutes governing any modern military.

 

- Arcada

 

That's never been an issue in any military outfit in any EU book that I can recall. Sowhy make up real life examples when in-universe ones exist plenty.

[Nydus]

That's never been an issue in any military outfit in any EU book that I can recall. Sowhy make up real life examples when in-universe ones exist plenty.

 

Sorry, I think sexual harassment is wrong.

 

- Arcada

[Xilizhra]

Oh BTW, I think you should all end up facing a Court Martial in the game for romancing anyone under your command, as outlined in the statutes governing any modern military.

 

- Arcada

This would only apply to the trooper, I think. The smuggler and bounty hunter aren't military, Jedi have separate systems and Nadia Grell is the only one who might be considered under your "command" anyway, Sith can do whatever and whomever they want, and the agent... are Kaliyo and Vector actually under her command? I don't think they are. Temple might be, so it might apply there, but I think that's it.

[Palar]

This would only apply to the trooper, I think. The smuggler and bounty hunter aren't military, Jedi have separate systems and Nadia Grell is the only one who might be considered under your "command" anyway, Sith can do whatever and whomever they want, and the agent... are Kaliyo and Vector actually under her command? I don't think they are. Temple might be, so it might apply there, but I think that's it.

 

Nadia actually hounds the player, instead, for what it's worth.

[drakensang]

Oh BTW, I think you should all end up facing a Court Martial in the game for romancing anyone under your command, as outlined in the statutes governing any modern military.

 

- Arcada

 

The trooper-players might object if they have to follow military statutes. The voidhound has no superiors, the barsen'thor and the hero of tython are council members, and might listen if satele objects. The grand champion would break down laughing if you tried to impose rules on her, what cipher nine does can't be seriously tracked anyway, darth imperius and the wrath don't submit for philosophical reasons. Only the poor trooper would get into trouble with garza if she would romance a subordinate, wear anything but standard issue uniform or take on side quests that aren't directly related to her main objective.

[Palar]

Oh BTW, I think you should all end up facing a Court Martial in the game for romancing anyone under your command, as outlined in the statutes governing any modern military.

 

- Arcada

 

Garza seems pretty hands-off, so long as you get her assignments done. Going off-mission to storm some Tatooine Imp base as part of continually messing up a SIS operation because Jorgan asks you to, or picking up Dorne's brother because she asks, don't seem to phase the General.

 

Given that Dorne even mentions Form A38 (or whatever it is) that permits relationships, fraternizing isn't that big a deal to the Republic.

[fabiyun]

There are those moments when you're not quite sure if it's willful ignorance or lingering homophobia with the Austin team.

 

Today's was sparked by general chat. "the rakgay.. rakgoul virus is like aids" followed by of course more homophobic rants that face absolutely no consequences when reported. But these convos happen in between the announcement coming through the speakers that any person with the virus should get themselves incinerated. You know, like what the nazis did to those with the gay, oh right, rakgoul virus.

 

It remains though, intentional or not, if this game had been another medium, like a movie, I'd have given it a very hard review for its sexism, heterosexism, neverending reproduction of tropes and cliches. It's not lgbtq friendly, it is often quite hostile, and if not the game itself, it is its users.

 

Just another day of homophobia in swtor, nothing to see here, move along.

[Palar]

"We're just joking - ugh, stop trying to un-Freedom of Speech us!!"

 

Apparently, nobody ever told BW:A "if you don't condemn it, you condone it".

[Tatile]

"We're just joking - ugh, stop trying to un-Freedom of Speech us!!"

 

Apparently, nobody ever told BW:A "if you don't condemn it, you condone it".

 

Ah yes, the old "By expressing your negative opinion towards my hateful slurring, you're oppressing my FREEDOM*, so SHUT UP!"

 

Yeah, Musco told me that apparently Bioware take sexual harassment and death threats very seriously, but I guess their CS team didn't get that memo. Or maybe they only think it applies when it's actively directed at someone, not just making a toxic environment.

 

"I don't get why you quite the game. I mean, it's not like all those horrific death threats in Gen. Chat 24/7 where specifically directed at you, they were just about people like you. I mean, it's not like you have to deal with that stuff near-constantly IRL, right? Right? You're still gonna give us money, yeah?"

 

Well hey, I guess if it's ok to say in General Chat, it's ok for you to take screenshots of the conversation and spam SWTOR's twitter feed and/or the Community Team's inboxes with them. I mean, Bioware won't find all that hate offensive. Will they.

 

*a freedom only applicable to and by your own government, largely with regards to your own government, and your ability to be a political dissident. It doesn't shield you from the consequences of private conversations, or public discourse when you do something monumentally stupid, like try to incite racial hatred.

[Xilizhra]

There are those moments when you're not quite sure if it's willful ignorance or lingering homophobia with the Austin team.

 

Today's was sparked by general chat. "the rakgay.. rakgoul virus is like aids" followed by of course more homophobic rants that face absolutely no consequences when reported. But these convos happen in between the announcement coming through the speakers that any person with the virus should get themselves incinerated. You know, like what the nazis did to those with the gay, oh right, rakgoul virus.

 

It remains though, intentional or not, if this game had been another medium, like a movie, I'd have given it a very hard review for its sexism, heterosexism, neverending reproduction of tropes and cliches. It's not lgbtq friendly, it is often quite hostile, and if not the game itself, it is its users.

 

Just another day of homophobia in swtor, nothing to see here, move along.

Which realm was this? Ebon Hawk has been nothing but positive whenever I've brought up SGRs.

 

I'd be more outraged, but I've become inured to Internet hate speech personally. Definitely unfortunate for anyone who hasn't been, though.

[Jandi]

There are those moments when you're not quite sure if it's willful ignorance or lingering homophobia with the Austin team.

 

Today's was sparked by general chat. "the rakgay.. rakgoul virus is like aids" followed by of course more homophobic rants that face absolutely no consequences when reported. But these convos happen in between the announcement coming through the speakers that any person with the virus should get themselves incinerated. You know, like what the nazis did to those with the gay, oh right, rakgoul virus.

 

It remains though, intentional or not, if this game had been another medium, like a movie, I'd have given it a very hard review for its sexism, heterosexism, neverending reproduction of tropes and cliches. It's not lgbtq friendly, it is often quite hostile, and if not the game itself, it is its users.

 

Just another day of homophobia in swtor, nothing to see here, move along.

 

Stupid kids spouting stupid nonsense has nothing to do with homophobia. It's stupid kids being stupid kids. If you need to write an aritcle evertime someone is being immature and disrespectful you must have a boring life.

 

Hey, maybe I should get upset too when someone uses the term shorty to describe a short person! IT HURTS MY FEELINGS! I mean, I'm height-impaired! Everything should be allowed to be said in jest, it's your problem if you get overly sensitive about what someone says when they don't mean it.

 

Hey, where is the support group for discrimation against sociopaths! You wanna look up how many movies, books or games use the term sociopath in the correct context? And how about you? How much of your own reaction towards a sociopath is based on factual information? I can answer that, none at all.

 

So, get over yourself, only a tiny minority care about anyones sexuality, those that do are either deeply religious or deeply hate themselves for being homosexual. If religious, those people can be ignored by default and if the latter, their problem isn't your problem. You should feel pity for such people, not anger or annoyance, pity.

[markcymru]

Hey, maybe I should get upset too when someone uses the term shorty to describe a short person! IT HURTS MY FEELINGS! I mean, I'm height-impaired! Everything should be allowed to be said in jest, it's your problem if you get overly sensitive about what someone says when they don't mean it.

Yeah you're right. I remember that time that short guy got murdered and hung up on a fence in Wyoming simply for being short. And that guy who was murdered in Halifax recently for being too short. And all the others who suffered the same fate or 'just' got beaten up at the hands of violent short-phobes -- you didn't get upset then and it didn't make you sensitive to hostility against short people. You've learned to live with the ever-present danger that you might encounter just from being short.

 

So why shouldn't gay men just relax too?

 

You're absolutely right.

Edited January 22, 2014 by markcymru

[Jandi]

Yeah you're right. I remember that time that short guy got murdered and hung up on a fence in Wyoming simply for being short. And that guy who was murdered in Halifax recently for being too short. And all the others who suffered the same fate or 'just' got beaten up at the hands of violent short-phobes -- you didn't get upset then and it didn't make you sensitive to hostility against short people. You've learned to live with the ever-present danger that you might encounter just from being short.

 

So why shouldn't gay men just relax too?

 

You're absolutely right.

 

Wow, so you can now be murdered through your computer? That's cool.

 

On a related note, being 5ft 4 and male is dangerous. Do you have ANY idea how many times those needing to stroke their ego come pick a fight in a bar with the shortest guy around? I'll give a hint: Often.

[Kain_Turinbar]

Is Austin in Texas, the most conservative state in the US of A? If so... that explains a lot.

 

Apparently you don't know anything about Austin. It's like a little slice of the Bay Area surrounded by Texas. Their motto is "Keep Austin Weird".

[eartharioch]

I mean, I'm height-impaired!

 

I believe the PC term is "vertically-challenged".

[Jandi]

I believe the PC term is "vertically-challenged".

 

That's certainly more apt, if nothing else. It's not easy when you try reach something from a top shelf and all of a sudden you hear a chorus of laughter and your friend asks if you need a ladder.

[Xilizhra]

Stupid kids spouting stupid nonsense has nothing to do with homophobia. It's stupid kids being stupid kids. If you need to write an aritcle evertime someone is being immature and disrespectful you must have a boring life.

Stupid kids being homophobic is hardly a contradiction in terms.

 

So, get over yourself, only a tiny minority care about anyones sexuality, those that do are either deeply religious or deeply hate themselves for being homosexual. If religious, those people can be ignored by default and if the latter, their problem isn't your problem. You should feel pity for such people, not anger or annoyance, pity.

The world would be quite a bit nicer if you were correct. Alas, it isn't the case.

 

Hey, maybe I should get upset too when someone uses the term shorty to describe a short person! IT HURTS MY FEELINGS! I mean, I'm height-impaired! Everything should be allowed to be said in jest, it's your problem if you get overly sensitive about what someone says when they don't mean it.

Let me try something. What race are you?

Edited January 23, 2014 by Xilizhra

[Jandi]

Stupid kids being homophobic is hardly a contradiction in terms.

 

Ugh, just because someone says gay in a negative context doesn't automatically mean they are *actually* homophobic. Sure, it's not politically correct but political correctness is hypocrisy of the highest order in the first place. Furthermore, words are just words, they are noises we make to convey thoughts. Attributing intent to a word alone without it's context is not only illogical, but pretentuous as well.

 

We ALL make off-hand remarks about groups or types of people that we don't actually mean. Show me a person that claims they never do and I'll show you a liar and a hypocrite.

[Jandi]

 

Let me try something. What race are you?

 

I'll do even better.

 

I'm white, half Russian, diabetic, short, average looking, equipped with a mediocre.... thing, randomly retarded, arguably mentally ill and... a jobless bum.

 

Come at me.