Is the Lore going too much in the Favor of...

[Forgon]

In every good story evil prevails. Or at least, the good guys dont and it is a draw. In boring dull stories good guys win, that's why they are boring and dull.

 

Going to debate that. I am a villain lover and play the "bad" morality in every video game I can and I know this is not true. What world do you live in? A story isn't "good" if a certain morality wins, it is based on the quality of the actual story. There are plenty of shows and movies I have seen where good guys win and I love them. There are also plenty of stories where the bad guy wins in the end, or at least leaves the hero severely maimed in some form or another.

 

If the story itself is good and you can relate to the characters and are provoked to feel emotion for them and their journey, then it is a good story.

[Trimaxion]

true but with situations like that there comes a time in which you want to move your focus to at least APPERING to back the most likely winner.

 

All the better if your also quietly supporting the other side with a quiet wink.

 

 

True enough, however it might be better to work out if your forces could cause the loser to be the winner, helping a foregone conclusion wouldn't hurt but being the tipping point to allow the weaker side to prevail could be VERY lucrative.... But maybe not prevail too fast.

[zzoorrzz]

Going to debate that. I am a villain lover and play the "bad" morality in every video game I can and I know this is not true. What world do you live in? A story isn't "good" if a certain morality wins, it is based on the quality of the actual story. There are plenty of shows and movies I have seen where good guys win and I love them. There are also plenty of stories where the bad guy wins in the end, or at least leaves the hero severely maimed in some form or another.

 

If the story itself is good and you can relate to the characters and are provoked to feel emotion for them and their journey, then it is a good story.

 

Yes, what I actually wanted to say is the story where good guys win is a predictable story, because that's what people expect, that's what hollywood etc. teach them. If that's the case, the story must make up for that elsewhere to be good. The stories where the good guys don't win have IMO advantage in this.

 

For example, maybe you've seen the latest episode of Game of Thrones. Something like that makes the story so much better because it makes it less predictable. Yes, the GoT story would be great even if some event from the latest episode didn't happen, but it would not be that good.

 

So that is my whole point. Good guys win = predictability = not as good as it could be.

Edited June 4, 2013 by zzoorrzz

[WarlordThuran]

Republic Corellia takes place after Imp Corellia, and they retake Corellia. Also, the Empire itself isn't the embodiment of evil...but the Sith are, and the Sith lead the Empire.

 

And the empire subsequentely isolates corellia, making the win practically meaningless (black hole questline) and shutting down their ability to contribute to the war.

 

Furthermore, the empire is in a situation where they are about to unify, and its quite clear that the reason the republic is winning is due to how divided the empire has been lately; A truly unified empire would be a completely different matter, which the ending cinematic of Makeb insinuates. It is likely that we will see the republic suffer some truly major blows in the next expansion. Right now, the alliance is set to be on the offensive, and not expecting that they are about to throw their forces against ready and fully armed isotope-5 defenses instead of the disorganized empire they are used to, and it seems Marr is planning some major counterattacks to exploit the chaos that will ensue once the republic attack falters and begins disintegrating.

 

I am also confused by the entire talk of hutt-republic; Empire had the option to negotiate with the hutts, and the empire forged strong tied with some hutts during the agent storyline, and really, since when was an alliance with a hutt a good thing?

 

According to the jedi path, the war after the treaty of coruscant lasted a thousand years, so we can pretty much confirm that our characters will not see the end of the war in their lifetime (convenient for bioware ), and we still have not reached some of the major turning points of the war, which apparently did a complete 180 several times.

[Girdeux]

 

According to the jedi path, the war after the treaty of coruscant lasted a thousand years, so we can pretty much confirm that our characters will not see the end of the war in their lifetime (convenient for bioware ), and we still have not reached some of the major turning points of the war, which apparently did a complete 180 several times.

 

No it didn't. To anyone thinking Bioware has a thousand years to play with need to read up on the lore. They have at MAX a few hundred years. The next dark lord that shows up is a fallen jedi turned Sith, with the Republic being in a "time of peace".

[Warcrarian]

Yes, what I actually wanted to say is the story where good guys win is a predictable story, because that's what people expect, that's what hollywood etc. teach them. If that's the case, the story must make up for that elsewhere to be good. The stories where the good guys don't win have IMO advantage in this.

 

For example, maybe you've seen the latest episode of Game of Thrones. Something like that makes the story so much better because it makes it less predictable. Yes, the GoT story would be great even if some event from the latest episode didn't happen, but it would not be that good.

 

So that is my whole point. Good guys win = predictability = not as good as it could be.

 

This.

 

A good guy winning in the end is what it sells, at the end few are the writers that think in the story and not about selling.

[Master-Nala]

The problem I have with the Empire winning is that the Current Sith Empire is the very quintessence of "stupid evil". The Emperor himself cares nothing for his own people, the noble class (the Sith) have as a part of their philosophy to think only of themselves. No such society could possibly defeat an organized, unified and committed force. The Empire needs a strong leader who can impose some semblance of reasonable behavior. The antics the Sith classes pull during their story should no longer be allowed.

 

I can see how after the Rule of Two, how the Sith were able to surreptitiously control the galaxy, but these jokers, never.

[Kfitzpatrick]

I think what a lot of people overlook is that the empire is losing because as their class stories show, they waste a lot of resources on infighting. However, now that the emperor is "dead" and with increased unity after the defeat of malgus, the empire is going to be an even more potent force than it already was. I think darth marr's speech at the end of the makeb imp story line is good indication of this.

 

But hey.. that's just my way of looking at it.

[Heathenblood]

I think what a lot of people overlook is that the empire is losing because as their class stories show, they waste a lot of resources on infighting. However, now that the emperor is "dead" and with increased unity after the defeat of malgus, the empire is going to be an even more potent force than it already was. I think darth marr's speech at the end of the makeb imp story line is good indication of this.

 

But hey.. that's just my way of looking at it.

 

Emperor is not dead. Sith warrior storyline letters prove that. The emperor is just in a slumber.

 

 

 

Make sure you read both letters

 

You killed the emperors voice in jk storyline. Not the emperor.

 

[BrianDavion]

Emperor is not dead. Sith warrior storyline letters prove that. The emperor is just in a slumber.

 

 

 

Make sure you read both letters

 

You killed the emperors voice in jk storyline. Not the emperor.

 

well that's what the Hand tells the Wraith. but we dunno if they where telling him the complete truth. a bit of a white lie, or complete rubbish (for the record my theory's on the second. the emperor is IMHO indeed dead. but chances are he's lived as long as he has via body swapping and we can expect to see a "dark empire" style return)

remember the Hand are Sith they presumably have their own game. even if the Emperor died it'd be in their best intrests to say "nah he's sleeping" because right now they basicly have full control over the Emperor's assists. The Imperial Guard, the Wraith, god knows what else. obviously if they said "ohh yeah he's dead" that control'd dissapper

[Euphrosyne]

I think what a lot of people overlook is that the empire is losing because as their class stories show, they waste a lot of resources on infighting. However, now that the emperor is "dead" and with increased unity after the defeat of malgus, the empire is going to be an even more potent force than it already was. I think darth marr's speech at the end of the makeb imp story line is good indication of this.

 

But hey.. that's just my way of looking at it.

That the infighting was happening does not mean that it was essential to the Republic's victory. In fact, there's an excellent argument that it wasn't. During the initial phase of the Battle of Corellia, during which the Empire seized control of the planet and then consolidated its position, the infighting was at a crescendo - Baras against Vowrawn, the SI against Thanaton, the whole string of disasters cooked up by the Star Cabal - but the Empire successfully overcame them and claimed victory on the planet. During the Republic's counteroffensive, it's hard, if not impossible, to see any evidence of dissension in the Empire's ranks; the culmination of the IA, SW, and SI class stories ended that internecine fighting. The Republic faced a powerful, hitherto victorious, and finally more-or-less united enemy on Corellia. And won a crushing victory in excess of some of the greatest battles in human military history - bigger than Tannenberg, or Stalingrad, or Gravelotte, or Liaoshen, or Gettysburg, or Cobra. Ten percent of the Empire's fighting forces were wiped from the face of the galaxy, a truly astonishing number.

 

Simply put, in the decisive battle of the war, the Empire just got beat like a red-headed stepchild.

 

It's true that Imperial internecine conflict undoubtedly made the Empire's situation even worse: the civil war against Malgus and the fighting against the Dread Masters made what was already an epic military disaster into what Marr called imminent defeat at the beginning of the Makeb storyline. But it cannot reasonably be said to have been the decisive factor.

[Kyneris]

The way I experienced the game's story (I main a Jedi Consular) was being under the impression that the Empire was heavily favored up until the end of act 3, where the Republic finally turned the tide.

 

After a string of defeats (Losing balmorra, losing corellia, Malgus's betrayal, losing numerous superweapons, losing the First Son, a comatose Emperor, Sith infighting), the Empire is in bad shape for sure. But they aren't done yet. The Emperor still lives (altough severely weakened/incapacitated) and they still have the Foundry. Combining the foundry with the isotope-5 being mined as we speak, they could make a droid army of unprecendented strength in no time.

 

It's not over yet folks.

[Stncold]

Yes, what I actually wanted to say is the story where good guys win is a predictable story, because that's what people expect, that's what hollywood etc. teach them. If that's the case, the story must make up for that elsewhere to be good. The stories where the good guys don't win have IMO advantage in this.

 

For example, maybe you've seen the latest episode of Game of Thrones. Something like that makes the story so much better because it makes it less predictable. Yes, the GoT story would be great even if some event from the latest episode didn't happen, but it would not be that good.

 

So that is my whole point. Good guys win = predictability = not as good as it could be.

 

Except the good guys are going to win in the end on GoT. Martin has basically admitted as much, although it will be "bittersweet". Understandably since the show doesn't do a good job of showing it, many non-book readers don't understand the war and scheming for the throne of Westeros is not the main plot of the series. The main plot of the series is the White Walkers invading, and they are the real bad guys.

[Kaisernick]

I think a big thing is that, until Palpatine, the Republic never fell. No matter the enemy, no matter the threat, the Republic held strong..

Did it

"once more the sith will rule the galaxy" Palpatine Episode 3

So once more implies that they did at some point, but when?

[dark-jehts]

The way I experienced the game's story (I main a Jedi Consular) was being under the impression that the Empire was heavily favored up until the end of act 3, where the Republic finally turned the tide.

 

After a string of defeats (Losing balmorra, losing corellia, Malgus's betrayal, losing numerous superweapons, losing the First Son, a comatose Emperor, Sith infighting), the Empire is in bad shape for sure. But they aren't done yet. The Emperor still lives (altough severely weakened/incapacitated) and they still have the Foundry. Combining the foundry with the isotope-5 being mined as we speak, they could make a droid army of unprecendented strength in no time.

It's not over yet folks.

 

Oh boy , i was wondering what was going to be made out of the isotope 5 , and when doing the foundry on an alt i was like "hey the empire actually still have it , why doesn't they make overhelming numbers of droids?" but i didn't think of what could happen if both are combined

Edited July 3, 2013 by dark-jehts

[Euphrosyne]

Did it

"once more the sith will rule the galaxy" Palpatine Episode 3

So once more implies that they did at some point, but when?

Generally speaking, EU writers have construed that comment either as hyperbole or as a reference to Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness, which controlled a very large portion of the galaxy immediately before the Battle of Ruusan about a thousand years before the movies. It was during a period often described as the "collapse of the Republic", when galactic civilization decentralized to an alarming degree, feudal Jedi Lords ran the defenses of their home sectors with scant attention paid to Coruscant, and the Republic itself ruled more in name than in fact. But the Jedi and Republic successfully beat the Brotherhood at Ruusan, and then Bane wiped out everybody that was left with his thought bomb.

 

If we assume that this Sith Empire conquered the galaxy and destroyed the Republic, we solve one minor canonical issue - Palpatine's unexplained comment - and create a whole raft of new canonical issues. Like how the Republic started up again, and how this supposedly galaxy-spanning Empire disappeared so completely that there was literally no trace of it left. And why the Republic had institutional and historical continuity on either side of the Empire's reign. And how the Alsakan-Coruscant conflicts worked out going forward. And where the hell all the Red Sith went. And so on, and so forth. And Obi-Wan's statement in A New Hope that the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice for the Republic for "a thousand generations" (e.g. since the foundation of the Republic in ~25000 BBY, following the collapse of the Infinite Empire), something that would obviously be impossible if the Sith destroyed the Republic and the Jedi.

 

And so on, and so forth.

[Callaron]

I think the reason the Empire is currently losing is to show us everything that is wrong with the current Empire.

The constant in-fighting, backstabbing and the xenophobia - after Makeb, under Darth Marr things seem to be taking a turn for the better.

There is actually a capable leader that realizes if the Dark Council is going to spend more time fighting each other in powerplays, the war will be lost.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Callaron

[EtaTwo]

I think the reason the Empire is currently losing is to show us everything that is wrong with the current Empire.

The constant in-fighting, backstabbing and the xenophobia - after Makeb, under Darth Marr things seem to be taking a turn for the better.

There is actually a capable leader that realizes if the Dark Council is going to spend more time fighting each other in powerplays, the war will be lost.

 

Agreed. I only hope they don't Boba Fett Marr and have his apprentice kill him or something.

 

Sadly, though.. I can see that happening. The Sith Circle is a vicious one.

[Kaisernick]

Generally speaking, EU writers have construed that comment either as hyperbole or as a reference to Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness, which controlled a very large portion of the galaxy immediately before the Battle of Ruusan about a thousand years before the movies. It was during a period often described as the "collapse of the Republic", when galactic civilization decentralized to an alarming degree, feudal Jedi Lords ran the defenses of their home sectors with scant attention paid to Coruscant, and the Republic itself ruled more in name than in fact. But the Jedi and Republic successfully beat the Brotherhood at Ruusan, and then Bane wiped out everybody that was left with his thought bomb.

 

If we assume that this Sith Empire conquered the galaxy and destroyed the Republic, we solve one minor canonical issue - Palpatine's unexplained comment - and create a whole raft of new canonical issues. Like how the Republic started up again, and how this supposedly galaxy-spanning Empire disappeared so completely that there was literally no trace of it left. And why the Republic had institutional and historical continuity on either side of the Empire's reign. And how the Alsakan-Coruscant conflicts worked out going forward. And where the hell all the Red Sith went. And so on, and so forth. And Obi-Wan's statement in A New Hope that the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice for the Republic for "a thousand generations" (e.g. since the foundation of the Republic in ~25000 BBY, following the collapse of the Infinite Empire), something that would obviously be impossible if the Sith destroyed the Republic and the Jedi.

 

And so on, and so forth.

 

Well i didn't say the republic would be completely wiped out, but if the empire say managed to take the core and many other systems the republic would probably end up much like the rebels sort of a Republic in exile, with the Jedi joining them, and of course the empire's reign wouldn't have to last decades they could resolve it eventually either in this game or another or even novels and comics it colaps could very well be in citizens rebelling against the sith which could then end up having them join the republic (it would also explain why the Republic use the sith empire symbol during the prequels, which has been a topic on the forum before). The red Sith seem to be dieing out already according to a quest on Koriban and breeding with humans and other alien seems to dilute the marks.

 

My point being is that many of the issues that would rise from a sith victory could easily be explained away by future content weather it be game book or comics.

[Euphrosyne]

So, your plan is to explain one throwaway comment by one unreliable narrator in the movies by nuking a significant chunk of canon and rebuilding it from scratch?

 

I dunno, man. Seems like a pretty disproportionate response to me.

[Ausstig]

So, your plan is to explain one throwaway comment by one unreliable narrator in the movies by nuking a significant chunk of canon and rebuilding it from scratch?

 

I dunno, man. Seems like a pretty disproportionate response to me.

You are aware that there is a massive gap in the timeline?

 

Like nothing for over 1000 years. So they have room to do something

[Kaisernick]

So, your plan is to explain one throwaway comment by one unreliable narrator in the movies by nuking a significant chunk of canon and rebuilding it from scratch?

 

I dunno, man. Seems like a pretty disproportionate response to me.

 

there is no existing cannon around this time to nuke and any and all cannon inconsistency can be easily explained away as i said, i men hell that the only reason the Ruusan Reformation was introduced in the timeline, in order to explain several differences between the EU and the prequel trilogy.

[BacaWicket]

you know palpitine in episode 3 said "once more the sith will rule the galaxy." keywords:once more

[BacaWicket]

I think the reason the Empire is currently losing is to show us everything that is wrong with the current Empire.

The constant in-fighting, backstabbing and the xenophobia - after Makeb, under Darth Marr things seem to be taking a turn for the better.

There is actually a capable leader that realizes if the Dark Council is going to spend more time fighting each other in powerplays, the war will be lost.

 

don't worry Malgus will return in patch 2.4 and we will defeat the republic. There will be a KOTOR 3 which will be just like the original trilogy: the sith warrior's wife bore a son who eventually got abducted by the jedi to train on a planet in the unknown regions and the rest of course is just like star wars was always meant to be about, the main protagonist's father is an evil sith, the empror gets thrown down a pit(again)

[BacaWicket]

here are some of the planets won by the republic since lvl 1: Balmorra, Corellia, and belsavis

here are some of the planets won by the empire since lvl 1: taris, hoth, and makeb

contested planets: illum, alderaan, and voss

neutral planets: hutta(rest of the planet), nar shaddaa, and tatooine