Is the Lore going too much in the Favor of...

[Trooperclay]

I hope we the player will be able to shape the course of the war in a dynamic way (all we've done primarily is ride along the Railroad Express that is class storylines and repeatable flashpoints)

 

This.

[Bleeters]

If a Sith Empire had run the galaxy in the past, Palpatine invoking them as an example in a speech to the Senate would make no sense whatsoever; why would he want to be openly shown as following the Sith's example?

I know galactic senators are morons, but you'd think the whole 'subtely dancing around the issue of whether he's behaving akin to the Sith' thing would've stopped being relevant around the time he was declaring himself Emperor, wearing hooded black robes and having all the Jedi killed. Why even declare you're making an Empire? Why not just call it something else? The Sith Empire's been a big enough deal throughout Republic history that people are going to put two and two together, especially if they've supposedly conquered the galaxy at some point.

 

But then, Palpatine also seems to figure holding a prolonged force power duel in the senate chambers and throwing lightning around wouldn't hurt, and everyone apparently just bought that line about the Jedi trying to overthrow the senate as justification for killing them all, so hey. Maybe everyone really is just that stupid.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Bleeters

[Kain_Turinbar]

I know galactic senators are morons, but you'd think the whole 'subtely dancing around the issue of whether he's behaving akin to the Sith' thing would've stopped being relevant around the time he was declaring himself Emperor, wearing hooded black robes and having all the Jedi killed. Why even declare you're making an Empire? Why not just call it something else? The Sith Empire's been a big enough deal throughout Republic history that people are going to put two and two together, especially if they've supposedly conquered the galaxy at some point.

 

But then, Palpatine also seems to figure holding a prolonged force power duel in the senate chambers and throwing lightning around wouldn't hurt, and everyone apparently just bought that line about the Jedi trying to overthrow the senate as justification for killing them all, so hey. Maybe everyone really is just that stupid.

 

I think people really are that stupid. Just look at real life for an example and how the overwhelming majority of people believe all that **** the government says all the time.

[Xilizhra]

I know galactic senators are morons, but you'd think the whole 'subtely dancing around the issue of whether he's behaving akin to the Sith' thing would've stopped being relevant around the time he was declaring himself Emperor, wearing hooded black robes and having all the Jedi killed. Why even declare you're making an Empire? Why not just call it something else? The Sith Empire's been a big enough deal throughout Republic history that people are going to put two and two together, especially if they've supposedly conquered the galaxy at some point.

 

But then, Palpatine also seems to figure holding a prolonged force power duel in the senate chambers and throwing lightning around wouldn't hurt, and everyone apparently just bought that line about the Jedi trying to overthrow the senate as justification for killing them all, so hey. Maybe everyone really is just that stupid.

It seems as though the memories of the Sith Empire just... sort of went away, somehow, and Palpatine was able to bring back all of its symbolism slowly over time. Then again, it's been a few thousand years.

[Bleeters]

It seems as though the memories of the Sith Empire just... sort of went away, somehow, and Palpatine was able to bring back all of its symbolism slowly over time. Then again, it's been a few thousand years.

In 2700~ years, though? For a galactic civilisation technologically advanced enough for hyperspeed FTL travel and culturally developed enough for successful galactic diplomacy and universal communication? I'm having a hard time seeing how something as significant as the fall of the Republic followed later by the collapse of the Empire that conquered it and re-establishment of another Republic just completely fell through the cracks. Maybe if they lost, sure, but if they actually won and Palpatine isn't just making cliche'd badguy victory ramblings with his "once again" line that everyone keeps bringing up, you'd think someone would've written that noise down.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Bleeters

[Beniboybling]

I don't think we should too readily associated Empire's with Sith. The Sith simply ruled the galaxy, they did not establish a Galactic Empire. All the Emperor is doing is invoking a new style of government to replace the old one, why should anyone care who used it (or maybe didn't) in the past if they believe it to be a good alternative to the current one?

 

Futhermore we shouldn't assume that everyone in the galaxy has played SWTOR. To many I expect the Sith are just urban legend, and perhaps not even believed in. We certainly have no reason to suggest that they'd be able to recognize dark side corruption or see black robes as an indication of Sith ties. They are ignorant of these matters.

 

And finally you'll find that Imperial symbolism is mainly derived from the Republic as opposed to anything else.

[AlixMV]

I hope we the player will be able to shape the course of the war in a dynamic way (all we've done primarily is ride along the Railroad Express that is class storylines and repeatable flashpoints)

 

Thing, is--which player? The Dark Side Jedi Knight who kills all the things? The Imperial Agent that defected to the Republic?

 

There are too many players and too many characters with too many different outcomes for the players to shape the course of the war in a dynamic way. The Railroad Express exists so anyone can play any character within the larger framework, and the illusion of choice that exists is how your character functions within it.

[Shevaresh]

It does seem that Bioware has "pissed their pants to keep warm" lorewise, in regards to the current state of power balance between the Republic and the Empire. The Empire is pretty much left hours away from total defeat, with a gigantic power vacuum in an organisational structure that NEEDS to have an exceptionally strong leader, that can bully his/hers underlings into submission and keep them focusing their fighting prowess towards the (external) enemy, saved only by a superweapon that (at best) would just make the uanvoidable victory by the Republic a extremely costly affair for them. (Aswell as perhaps the Republic's unwillingness to fully commit to wiping out the Empire, with the chance of repeating the error of the last war, which ultimately made the Empire return with vastly more strength and commitment).

 

In defense of Bioware, it must be said that achieving a proper balance of power between these two factions, does seem quite an impossible task. In my understanding of the lore in SW, aswell as the philosofical implications of the light and dark side of the force, it would seem that an Empire of dark side force-users, properly lead and focussed, would invariably "wipe the floor" with the Republic army and jedi, as dark side use of the force grants far more powerful abillities, albeit on a short term scale, making their army nearly unstoppable. The catch of this power is though, much in line with the notions of Karma in eastern philosophy, that not only does this "drain" on the force, that dark side user use, come at a hefty toll, it will also eventually return what is drained back to the force. So while the Empire, at the height of their power before the drain is returned, would win every battle(more or less, of course) they would invariably lose the war(s) in the long run as long as they are opposed by the Jedi, whose power might be somewhat less on a personal level, but lasting becaurse of their symbiotic relationship with the force.

 

On the organisational level the story is much the same, in relation to the power-balance between the factions. The Republic, while often and invariably stuck in the indecisiveness that the rule of democracy inspires, has as a core value of its society, that it'll progress through coorporation and unity of the Republic as a whole, not by the strength of individuals. On a short term scale this does not always hold true, they will properly regulary be saved by strong individuals performing exceptional feats, but in the grand scale of things, the power of both these individuals and the Republic organisation as a whole, stems from the unity and coorporation, from that power is an collective entity, rather than an individualistic entity, in this society. In the Empire, as in most dictatorships in real life, power is an individualistic entity, where wether you have it yourself or not, can have drastic consequences on the "quality of life" you have. Each and everybody will strive for power, becaurse it's the only way you can stay "alive", and the only way you'll (willingly) subjecate yourself to another, is if you either acquire power by doing so or you simply have no chance of overpowering him/her. While this individualistic society can accomplish amazing feats of unity and coherence, such as can be required in wars, as they're ultimately acting on the will of just one individual, it's power and coherence will invariably only function in the short run, as internal pressure(from the constant power-plays) will break apart the unity and/or dwindle the power present in the society.

 

So, to make an already long story last longer, the reality of both their organisational and force-use philosophy, makes it so that the Empire is either an unstoppable power-house, that would trash the Republic outright, or an chaotic and self-destroying "lemming tossing itself off a cliff, becaurse it lacks the foresight to percieve what will happen", there is really no middle-ground in this conceptualisation that the SW-universe relies on. So achieving a proper balance between the factions currently, staying true to the philosophy and lore of SW, is quite the task for Bioware, as SW really is rather black/white in it's fundamental conceptualisation.

 

However, which is why I'd still say Bioware has "pissed their pants", killing off almost every single powerful person, aswell as key-structures in the society, of the Empire already at the end of the class-quest timeline, leaving them in a state where they're really just "still kicking" by the mercy of the Republic, is a rather short-sighted solution (lorewise). While it does make for some rather epic stories (on both sides though), it does leave the ongoing conflict between the Empire and Republic, as something that does require rather the stretch of imagination to be percieved as an important part of the universe, as it stands. The only way to revitalise this conflict as the epi-center of the universe, would be to reinstate a (proper) emperor, who could revitalise the power of the Empire, making them (albeit still temporary) a power to reckon with in the universe. Who that would be, would be the million dollar question though, of course. The obvious choices would be either a resurge of Vitiate; Could be he had an alternate plan all along? He is a rather enigmatic individual afterall(Though I'd rage-quit and boycut Bioware forever, if they reinstate him with nothing but the same nihilistic plan, just to kill him off again (even if it is as a raidboss)). The other would obviously be Darth Marr, but putting aside his obvious power and influence(aswell as popularity in the Imperial society), does he really have what it takes to make an emperor? He can obviously lead and influence the other lords to put aside their power-plays, but does he really have the (tactical/organisational) foresight to overcome the inherent short-commings of the Empire to make them an concievable treat once again? Perhaps if his story and background gets more "fleshed out", he might be a proper emperor to lead the Empire, but as of now I personally can't see him as more than the "least-worst" scenario.

 

To sum up: I really hope Biowares "lore-team" realises the rather hopeless situation that they've left the Empire in currently, aswell as those players playing them (that cares for the lore ofc) and that they have some "master-scheme" to revitalise the Empire. As it stands now, the republic properly wouldn't even have time to finish off the Empire, before they finish themselves off. Super-weapon or not, they're massively out-numbered, have their greatest warriors cut down and are without the leadership that is mandatory for them to be a real threat to the Republic. If the conflict between the Empire and the Republic is to be the "center-piece" of this (story-driven) MMO, rather than a contineuos stream of "common enemies" as the Dread Masters and such(Which we all know will eventually end up with being more and more non-sensical enemies in time(Panda's and time-travel anyone?)), something has to be done to shift the balance of power. But I stil have faith in Bioware to turn this around, afterall isn't it the epic "turns of the table's" in the most darkest of hours, that makes for the greatest stories?

 

TL;DR - Yes, the lore is (too) heavily favoring the Republic at the moment, even despite the Empire's victory on Makeb

[Allronix]

The way the Empire is set up, it's unthinkable they had a chance at winning in the long term. If nothing else, BioWare can pull deconstruction. KOTOR 1 had a fair amount of it. When they farmed out the second to Obsidian, Avellone proceeded to trash the entire setting, George Lucas's ideas of morality, RPG mechanics, the charismatic hero and ragtag party, cross-classing (yes, it was a bug, but it was Fridge Brilliance that Exile could get almost no influence with Canderous; no Force Senstivity to exploit, and he wasn't a droid programmed for loyalty), and just about everything else.

 

Mass Effect? Its very own Space Opera. Spends the first game reconstructing 80's Space Opera with action heroes, high tech, a dash of sex and satire...and the rest of the series pulling a combo plate of JMS (story arcs, lots of little things that turn into massive player punches down the line), Joss Whedon (dialogue, body count), and Terry Nation (railroading, downer ending, doomed crew, trashed ship, universe in shreds, protagonist probably isn't sane and definitely chasing death by the last act)

 

Then BioWare decides to do its own deconstructor fleet and pull in Dragon Age. No good deed goes unpunished. Helping people causes more harm than good. The mages are slaves threatenerd constantly with lobotomy, which causes some to cut deals with the devil out of desperation, which causes them to go nuts, which just causes the noose around the mages' necks to get tighter. (And one of those people who made the deal with a demon is the nicest, sweetest person in the games) The Church is filthy and power-mad, the Templars are hypocrites addicted to magical drugs. Everyone's too busy backstabbing each other to do squat about the hordes of monsters attacking the countryside. And any honorable guys you meet are probably the wrong people to side with or get attached to, as the honorable king leads his army into a slaughter, the honorable dwarf candidate just makes things worse, and the nasty rat bastards are the only ones getting things done.

 

 

No third option available to Hawke. No matter what you do, it just ends in a pointless bloodbath. The third option on the Warden is probably going to end in Jon Inicrius II. You're probably better off getting your Warden killed, seeing as oblivion is preferable to any other fate you can get, including living out the rest of your 30 years and then turning into an insane monster from the Darkspawn taint .

 

 

They start with some deconstruction on Revan and Exile. Believing their own hype, they grab the Idiot Ball, abandon their allies, walk into an obvious trap, and neglect to accomplish anything. Exile is reduced to a passive non-entity spewing fortune cookie slogans while Revan is reduced to the Emperor's favorite toy. Revan deludes himself into thinking he tempered the Emperor, but the likely scenario is that the Emperor's immortal - he could handle a couple centuries of prep time to find the exact moment when the Republic was caught in the bathroom, pants around ankles, especially with Revan's LS connection helping make the decisions. That, and the worthless treaty ensures a bloody war of attrition that keeps his Darths fighting the Republic and each other instead of wondering what he's really doing. Malgus was right; the Emperor essentially let Revan go when his usefulness was at an end, so he could lead the Empire to the Foundry. If the Empire team failed, then the droids would make good on slaughtering their way across the entire galaxy, with the war mopping up anyone left. If the Empire team succeeded, then there's a nasty droid factory in Imperial hands and one less overpowered idiot Jedi. Deconstruction: One of the most beloved Expanded U characters (and one of their finest creations) is shown to be a delusional twit who was nothing more than a pawn of someone else all along.

 

Next, they deconstruct how the war would go. Of course, an unprepared Republic would get curb-stomped by a faction who had been prepping for 300+ years. Of course, Jedi who had never dealt with fighting other Force Users would get their butts handed to them. Of course, having Coruscant itself hit would be such a devastating blow to the Republic that it would cripple their will to fight on. They still have the infrastructure and population to support it, but not the organization. And a curb-stomp of the Republic wouldn't help the Emperor's agenda. He needs a long, bloody war of attrition to kill everything but himself, not a one-sided fight that will leave his Darths hungry for battle and eyeing the throne. So, both sides sign a worthless treaty knowing it's worthless and start preparing for the next round.

 

Next deconstruction is how The Empire would actually run. Sith are interested in nothing but their own power and trying to achieve "perfect" power, perfect destiny, perfect strength. Such a being will make them more powerful than ever...and destroy them. They get their "perfect being" with the Emperor. Yes, he made them strong; strong enough to hit the Republic very, very hard. But he plans on destroying his own Empire with everyone and everything else to achieve his perfection. They value "strength," but only one kind of it; the ability to kill someone before he kills you, the power to make another being suffer. In theory, this means only the lean, hungry, best of the best predators survive, much less prosper. In reality, it means a small number of psychotic Sith busy devouring each other instead of paying attention to the Republic. It means anyone with any kind of authority or decision making capability cannot trust their subordinates, as those subordinates are openly biding their time to knife the superior in the back to advance themselves. It means fewer experienced officers, officials, spies, Force Users. And even the biggest, baddest fighter in the galaxy can get taken out by sheer numbers. Manditory conscription and slave labor also means a workforce and infantry prone to mutiny, revolt, fragging their officers (the fragger is even rewarded with a promotion), and (in the case of slavery) massive squandering of talent.

 

Worse, is that all the posturing wastes resources. Kaas City is a great example. Even if most of it is "off screen", it's still MUCH smaller than most Core World towns. It appears to be the size of Sobrik on Balmorra (most of that city can't be seen, either) . And at least Balmorra doesn't require all trade, soldiers, and equipment to slog through dirt roads in a predator-infested jungle just to get to the closest spaceport. Oh, but it means only the "strong" make the trip, even if it ruins all of the trade goods and equipment or kills half the soldiers in the process of just getting off-world. Slave labor is also being wasted building monuments (so the Darths have something to flaunt over their peers) instead of roads and factories (which would actually help the war effort).

 

So we have a society that's a one-trick pony. It hit the Republic hard. It's very good at fighting and creating a handful of powerful individuals, but it's run on a philosophy that was, to quote KOTOR "Power, but no longevity. Eventually, it just consumes itself." We spend a whole game on Imp side watching (and helping) the Empire devour itself. Now we see the consequences play out in-game. The Empire's mentality is good for sudden, brutal, crushing attacks, but they have no eye for long-term strategy

Edited February 19, 2014 by Allronix

[Stanimir]

The republic is going to win this war. I'm interested to see how both Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath are going to survive the collapse of the empire as we know it now. How will the remaining sith link up with the Brotherhood of Darkness? Marr already suggests BoD ideology on Makeb. Will Marr create the Brotherhood? Is the war the Brotherhood fights in the Bane trilogy the same war we are fighting now?

 

The lore is murky, and the Clone Wars series proves there is little fear in rewriting whole sections of Star Wars history. I eagerly await what the Emperor has in store for Tython (as Tython is a destroyed, dark side planet in the times of Bane)

Edited February 20, 2014 by Stanimir

[Aurbere]

The republic is going to win this war. I'm interested to see how both Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath are going to survive the collapse of the empire as we know it now. How will the remaining sith link up with the Brotherhood of Darkness? Marr already suggests BoD ideology on Makeb. Will Marr create the Brotherhood? Is the war the Brotherhood fights in the Bane trilogy the same war we are fighting now?

 

You have your timeline messed up.

[Stanimir]

You have your timeline messed up.

 

It should've been suggested that I realize that's nearly 1000 years away at this point. I was inquiring whether or not they'll just get rid of Darth Ruin or make one of us him, or something. His character is so loosely described and of marginal importance, and as I said, given the willingness of creators to basically totally rewrite Star Wars history of late, it wouldn't be that much of a jump.

[Beniboybling]

It should've been suggested that I realize that's nearly 1000 years away at this point. I was inquiring whether or not they'll just get rid of Darth Ruin or make one of us him, or something. His character is so loosely described and of marginal importance, and as I said, given the willingness of creators to basically totally rewrite Star Wars history of late, it wouldn't be that much of a jump.

I wouldn't mind if they retconned Darth Ruin and co. that all seemed like filler to me.

 

Or at the very least make something of the period.

[OldVengeance]

I don't think the Clone Wars retcons are going to be any indicators of whatever TOR does with Lore. I think if anything Darth Ruin is much less likely to be retconed than everything in this entire game. Darth Ruin is actually from the Lucas's "official" backstory for the Sith created in the prequels, or at least the concept for the character is. But SWTOR is not. Everything in TOR and earlier could just vanish altogether if Morriband is replacing Korriban as the homeworld of the Sith, for example.

[Beniboybling]

I don't think the Clone Wars retcons are going to be any indicators of whatever TOR does with Lore. I think if anything Darth Ruin is much less likely to be retconed than everything in this entire game. Darth Ruin is actually from the Lucas's "official" backstory for the Sith created in the prequels, or at least the concept for the character is. But SWTOR is not. Everything in TOR and earlier could just vanish altogether if Morriband is replacing Korriban as the homeworld of the Sith, for example.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7233011

 

I also doubt they'll retcon such a massive multimedia project. Nor is Lucas around anymore.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Beniboybling

[OldVengeance]

Well that's certainly great news, but even so Darth Ruin has a place in the "canon" more secure than someone like Darth Marr. Even if it's just the concept for the character and not the name.

[FabulousDoctor]

Well, going off the books that are a few thousand years past this (movie era infobooks) the Galactic Republic should have hundreds of trillions of people. Coruscant has a little more than a trillion people. There are at least four (and up to seven, if you count things that are kinda canon but questionable) city planets that are said to be 'as big or bigger', and are part of the Republic space atthat time.

 

 

In comparison, Dromund Kaas probably houses a few million.

 

 

If the Republic fielded 1% of their population as military, they'd likely outnumber the Empire's entire population 10 to 1.