Nerf Mercenaries

[cashogy]

this is definitely the most important issue in PvP right now.

 

i hope that the devs drop every project they are working on, and fix it immediately

[Lalainnia]

this is definitely the most important issue in PvP right now.

 

i hope that the devs drop every project they are working on, and fix it immediately

 

I second this;)

[FREDDOSPWN]

Okay then. Let's see you use your numbers to disprove this video then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg2ofG7-zM&feature=youtu.be

 

Just to explain in this thread as well...

I used an ability to remove some of my resource prior to starting the test. This ensured that when I hit 100% resource once again, I then could start the test because the "tick" has already passed. This told me that both the vanguard and powertech started on the same energy tick, which places them on even ground for the test.

The outcome? Watch and see for yourself.

 

Thank you again for another great video to support the cause! I have edited the opening post with links to both videos. Hopefully this will help resolve this issue, once and for all.

 

this is definitely the most important issue in PvP right now.

 

i hope that the devs drop every project they are working on, and fix it immediately

 

Always nice to see more people posting to support the cause. Keep it up guys, and eventually we may see some much needed changes.

 

To all the others that have viewed the thread and not posted:

Please post, whether it be in support of, or against, this issue. More discussion needs to be had and viable solutions found so that this can be fixed for fair PvP.

[yoomazir]

Always nice to see more people posting to support the cause. Keep it up guys, and eventually we may see some much needed changes.

 

You don't get it...

[-Holmes]

this is definitely the most important issue in PvP right now.

 

i hope that the devs drop every project they are working on, and fix it immediately

 

All issues should be addressed, but to be fair, this issue has been here for far longer than the bubble spec and smash issues. Those are only issues because there's so many people using them.

[Macroeconomics]

When I was doing my calculation, I assumed the MH pistol and the assault cannon had the same chance to trigger Riposte. I also did not know how many shots were fired and so left that area blank instead of using incorrect calculations. If you use my result in the Mercenary calculation you should get a similar result:

 

Mercenary

1 - (((1 - 0.05) ^ 5) * ((1 - (0.67 * 0.05)) ^ 5)) = 0.3474,

1 - ((1 - 0.05) * (1 - (0.67 * 0.05)))= 0.081825 (chance for one attack from each weapon to trigger Riposte)

 

Commando

1 - ((1 - 0.05) ^ 7) = 0.30166,

1 - (1 - 0.05) = 0.05 (chance for one attack to trigger Riposte)

 

As you can see, there is approximately (((0.3474 - 0.3017) / 0.3017) = 0.15147) 15% more Riposte triggers for the Mercenary compared to the Commando. This is not insignificant, but it is there to balance out the higher potential damage.

The problem you had was that you probably did:

(((Commando Riposte Trigger / Mercenary Riposte Trigger) * 100) = ) which should come out to ~87%.

The reason you didn't get this value was because you used 62% in you off-hand calculations (incorrectly), instead of (0.67 * 0.05) since only attacks that hit can trigger Riposte.

 

I can see why you think this is the way it works from the tooltip description of the ability. But, that's not how it ACTUALLY works. I suggest you trot out a Merc and a Mara to Outlaw's Den. Make sure the Mara has some built up rage before the Merc shoots Rapid Shots at the Mara. You need that in order for the Retaliation icon to show up as available. And if you do that, what will you find? After 50 Rapid Shots, Retaliation was triggered 80% of the time (40 times). The Merc used had a slightly higher Accuracy rating, than the numbers we assumed (Mara was at 5% defense chance). But the results decisively proved that Retaliation is NOT triggered based on a 5% chance on successful hits. No. Rather, large numbers of misses drive the Retaliation trigger. Go test it yourself. The results don't lie.

[cashogy_reborn]

All issues should be addressed, but to be fair, this issue has been here for far longer than the bubble spec and smash issues. Those are only issues because there's so many people using them.

 

this is something that has very little affect on overall balance. would it be great if bioware finds time, after addressing far more pressing issues regarding PvP balance? absolutely.

 

but there are a lot more important issues that bioware is dealing with right now. i play both a Merc and a Mando, and have never had problems with discrepancies between resource management of one faction's AC over the other.

[HexDecimalUK]

how terribal do you have to be at this game to actually want to nerf mercs? interupt them if they spam tracers or just stun them they have no escape or survivability at all i should know i have been scrawling at mine for eons now and have long given up on it since my Sorc does all the same jobs but far FAAAR better honestly do what you want to them they are already a joke class.

 

That said commandos are also just as bad who knows maybe worse or maybe most people who play them are bad like most people who play sins/shadows i have seen on occasions commandos do amazing feats especially healers.

 

so if you think about it mercs and commandos arent actually bad they just take alot of skill and when i say alot im mean you gotta be absolutely MLG pro and an expert on all the other classes in swtor to run them.

[-Holmes]

how terribal do you have to be at this game to actually want to nerf mercs? interupt them if they spam tracers or just stun them they have no escape or survivability at all i should know i have been scrawling at mine for eons now and have long given up on it since my Sorc does all the same jobs but far FAAAR better honestly do what you want to them they are already a joke class.

 

That said commandos are also just as bad who knows maybe worse or maybe most people who play them are bad like most people who play sins/shadows i have seen on occasions commandos do amazing feats especially healers.

 

so if you think about it mercs and commandos arent actually bad they just take alot of skill and when i say alot im mean you gotta be absolutely MLG pro and an expert on all the other classes in swtor to run them.

 

Have you read the thread content before spouting that bs?

[cashogy_reborn]

Have you read the thread content before spouting that bs?

 

negative ghost rider

[FREDDOSPWN]

All issues should be addressed, but to be fair, this issue has been here for far longer than the bubble spec and smash issues. Those are only issues because there's so many people using them.

 

The main issue with this imbalance is that only the Empire can take advantage of it.

Sure, smash and bubble stuns are an issue. However, both factions can take advantage of them.

(This is not me saying smash and bubble stuns are balanced).

 

Just because this issue has been around for a long time, does not mean it should not be fixed. If smash and bubble stun stayed this way for a year, people wouldn't stop complaining about them.

 

The other problem is that there is no clear way of seeing this issue. A smasher might see their damage go up by 100k, but a Bounty Hunter will get smaller and more numerous benefits that can't easily be shown on the scoreboard.

 

This creates the insidious loop where Bounty Hunters will swear that there is no issue, and that they are just "that good".

 

There would be a lot more people abusing the Bounty Hunter regeneration system if it was widely known. A lot of people do not know about it, and as such do not abuse the discrepancy to it's full potential.

 

With the last flavour of the month being Pyro Powertech (Assault Specialist Vanguard), there are a lot of players with a Trooper or a Bounty Hunter character. Also, since Bioware have said that they are planning to buff Mercenaries in the mobility department, some players are being preemptively gearing their character. I want to stop the over-abuse of heat before it even happens.

 

This is mainly because the imbalance heavily favours one faction (Empire).

 

Then we get to the point where many people have Empire as their main, and do not want a fair chance for the opposition. Then they refuse that there is even a problem at all (despite evidence to the contrary).

[Exothermix]

I will repeat myself: there isn't a mechanical difference in the resources of the BH and the Trooper - they both use heat. It's just a different visual representation.

 

 

However, I cannot find the source of this information, so it might just be pure speculation.

 

[Philelectric]

Nice troll 7/10

[ChickenWangs]

Nice troll 7/10

 

This isn't about Merc specifically, if you would not TL;DR his post you would see that. The title should be nerf bounty hunters but that's beside the point

 

The real time where this comes into play is in extended pvp fights (usually RWZ) and PVE. Bioware should address the issue as the OP posted some simple fixes that could be included for the heat system.

[cashogy_reborn]

This isn't about Merc specifically, if you would not TL;DR his post you would see that. The title should be nerf bounty hunters but that's beside the point

 

The real time where this comes into play is in extended pvp fights (usually RWZ) and PVE. Bioware should address the issue as the OP posted some simple fixes that could be included for the heat system.

 

its really not an issue. with proper heat management of either class you will never run out heat as DPS, and only occasionally as medic.

[Dr_Kid]

This is definitely a problem and extremely easy to prove. I have both a 50 Powertech and 50 Vanguard. Instead of spamming Ion Pulse/Flame Burst non-stop, you have to use Hammershot/Rapid Shots as a filler. Here's what I posted in another thread.

 

Ran the exact same test twice until I physically was unable to activate either Ion Pulse or Flame Burst,

Using Ion Pulse every 3 seconds (Hammershots as a filler) My Vanguard was able to activate 29/27 Ion Pulses before completely running out of Ammo.

 

My Powertech using Flame Burst every 3 seconds (Rapid Shots filler) was able to activate 54/56 Flame Bursts before completely maxing out heat.

 

I was able to get twice as many Flamebursts on my Powertech than compared to my Vanguard, this isn't a minor balance issue. This bug needs to be acknowledged by the devs, and fixed.

[FREDDOSPWN]

its really not an issue. with proper heat management of either class you will never run out heat as DPS, and only occasionally as medic.

 

The issue is not running out of heat, any class can stay in their high regeneration with enough filler shots. The issue is the amount of filler shots required to stay in the high regeneration zone compared to the mirror class (Trooper).

The answer is that the Trooper requires more filler attacks for correct ammo management.

 

This is definitely a problem and extremely easy to prove. I have both a 50 Powertech and 50 Vanguard. Instead of spamming Ion Pulse/Flame Burst non-stop, you have to use Hammershot/Rapid Shots as a filler. Here's what I posted in another thread.

 

 

 

I was able to get twice as many Flamebursts on my Powertech than compared to my Vanguard, this isn't a minor balance issue. This bug needs to be acknowledged by the devs, and fixed.

 

Thank you for taking the time to support the issue. This sort of scenario would be quite common in a ranked warzone node fight. As you've said, the Bounty Hunter will come out on top (by a large margin).

 

This isn't about Merc specifically, if you would not TL;DR his post you would see that. The title should be nerf bounty hunters but that's beside the point

 

The real time where this comes into play is in extended pvp fights (usually RWZ) and PVE. Bioware should address the issue as the OP posted some simple fixes that could be included for the heat system.

 

Yes, it should be "Nerf Bounty Hunters". However, I put "Nerf Mercenaries" to get more attention to the thread (and because the examples in the opening post were with a Mercenary and a Commando).

[AshlaBoga]

The OP really should change his title, no one is going to read his (well-written imo) post, they're just going to say "Mercs are UP," because they are. Making your title controversial isn't a good way to get intelligent conversation.

[cashogy_reborn]

The OP really should change his title, no one is going to read his (well-written imo) post, they're just going to say "Mercs are UP," because they are. Making your title controversial isn't a good way to get intelligent conversation.

 

yeah, there has been a lot of responses just along those lines from folks who havent read the thread, only the title.

 

as far as fixing this goes, dont you think it would be easier to just have Ammo and Heat both be out of 100? Troopers have big a** guns, they could definitely have more than 12 rounds in there

 

the hardest part of implementing that would be having to redo Trooper's resource UI.

[FREDDOSPWN]

The OP really should change his title, no one is going to read his (well-written imo) post, they're just going to say "Mercs are UP," because they are. Making your title controversial isn't a good way to get intelligent conversation.

 

Thanks for the compliment. In hindsight, assuming people read a thread before posting isn't a safe assumption. However, there have been a number of very helpful people in this thread, so it isn't a whole loss.

 

yeah, there has been a lot of responses just along those lines from folks who havent read the thread, only the title.

 

as far as fixing this goes, dont you think it would be easier to just have Ammo and Heat both be out of 100? Troopers have big a** guns, they could definitely have more than 12 rounds in there

 

the hardest part of implementing that would be having to redo Trooper's resource UI.

 

I agree, making ammo out of 100 (or heat out of 12) is the easiest way to go. Since the issue has been around so long, I doubt that will happen. This is why I posted the other two solutions (reduce high regeneration of Bounty Hunter to ~33, or increase high regeneration of trooper from 8 to 7 ammo).

I think those are the best three solutions, but feel free to chime in if you find better ones.

[ArchangelLBC]

/signed

 

I didn't realize how bad it was till the post about VG vs PT Ion Pulse spammage. That's ridiculous.

[Dr_Kid]

Here's a re-post of my sample fix that makes Bounty Hunters and Troopers identical. (Without redoing the 12 Ammo System) The two main problems being Regen levels and ability costs. BHs can stay in very fast regen until they burn 40% or more heat, Troopers can only use 33.33% Ammo before dropping into Moderate. Flame Burst costs 16 heat. Ion Pulse costs 16.666% ammo. (2/12 Ammo)

 

A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo

1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat

All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo

.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.

This bug also appears to affect Commando 4 Ammo abilities, although to a lesser extent. Merc abilities cost 33 Heat, Commandos cost 33.333 heat. A reduction from 4 Ammo to 3.96 would also resolve this issue. 3.96/12 = .33

 

Solution to the Ammo Regen intervals.

Sample fix to this problem. Moderate Regen should start at 7.2 Ammo not 8.

7.2/12 = 60%

Very Slow Regen should start at 2.4 Ammo not 3.

2.4/12 = 20%

 

The solution will require a lot of decimals to work. I know decimals can work as Very Slow and Slow Ammo regen are both .24 and .36 respectively, and my solutions go to the same hundredths place.

Tool-tip descriptions should probably display the same as they did before (1, 2 and 4 Ammo when rounded up), but mechanically, the costs and regeneration intervals should be identical to BHs

[FREDDOSPWN]

Here's a re-post of my sample fix that makes Bounty Hunters and Troopers identical. (Without redoing the 12 Ammo System) The two main problems being Regen levels and ability costs. BHs can stay in very fast regen until they burn 40% or more heat, Troopers can only use 33.33% Ammo before dropping into Moderate. Flame Burst costs 16 heat. Ion Pulse costs 16.666% ammo. (2/12 Ammo)

 

 

 

The solution will require a lot of decimals to work. I know decimals can work as Very Slow and Slow Ammo regen are both .24 and .36 respectively, and my solutions go to the same hundredths place.

Tool-tip descriptions should probably display the same as they did before (1, 2 and 4 Ammo when rounded up), but mechanically, the costs and regeneration intervals should be identical to BHs

 

It is a good fix, the only problem is that it would create a barrier against playing the Trooper.

 

New players coming to the Trooper would be given false information (simplified tooltips). As a result, they wouldn't play the Trooper as well as they could with all the information. This is easily solved by the player doing some research, but there are already a lot of complaints concerning SW: tOR not giving the player enough information to base their decisions off of (e.g. choosing an advanced class).

If you didn't simplify the tooltips, well, then you get an overly complicated system for new players. This probably wouldn't be an issue for more experienced players, or players who have a Bounty Hunter, but it could needlessly complicate the class. Every single thing about the class would go into decimal places.

 

Not to mention never actually using complete ammo blocks seems a little illogical, it would feel as if we were keeping the system out of a sense of nostalgic fondness.

It would probably just be simpler to convert ammo into heat.

 

Then again, without actually testing your system, I don't know if these are even valid concerns.

It is certainly a better suggestion to bring balance to the resource disparity than mine, but it feels as if ammo would be overly complex as a result.

[cashogy_reborn]

im withdrawing from this discussion before i get myself into trouble

[FREDDOSPWN]

im withdrawing from this discussion before i get myself into trouble

 

Don't withdraw! This issue needs to be fixed (how would you get in trouble?).

 

On a side note:

I thought I'd add a link to Dr_kid's thread. He has also been trying to fix this issue, only he is over in the class forums. I will edit the opening post with a link too.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5770270#