Nerf Mercenaries

[clubdeeko]

Alpha troll. Edited January 20, 2013 by clubdeeko

[durvas]

I don't know the specifics of merc/commando mh/oh, but for sniper/slinger, GS actually start to come out ahead when over 100% accuracy. Anyway, about trooper/BH, even if it is actually calculated the same, they actually have the same regen zones, and the cell cost is actually not more than heat, it's still much easier to "ride the line", ie get more dps without dropping over into the lower regen because you actually know where you are on a BH. On a trooper, you have to kind of guess what fraction of a cell the regen might actually be at and it is easy for you go into lower regen or simply lose gcds with your normal shot. Edited January 20, 2013 by durvas

[FREDDOSPWN]

What is not balanced in the Merc vs. Commando comparison are the side effects of having the offhand weapon. More gifting of retaliation/riposte to your enemies. Less ability to stack power. And less burst.

 

You can not argue that the multi-attack resolution of the Merc doesn't result in more averaging of damage and thus a lower chance of Surge being applied to the entire base of your nominal damage. That is basic math.

 

The increased chance of giving retaliation/riposte is the off-set of having the higher damage potential. It is a disadvantage, but it will only happen an extra 3% (6.7% for inquisitors/consulars) of the time unless the target stacks defense.

 

Mercenaries do not have less ability to stack power, as the weapon calculations show, since they do the same average damage without any additional accuracy for the off-hand weapon.

The issue of surge not applying to attacks works both ways though. If a Commando doesn't critically hit, then they do not critically hit. If a Mercenary does not critically hit, they can get their off-hand to critically hit and salvage some damage.

 

On attacks that use both weapons:

A 40% critical hit chance (bit high but for ease of calculations) means a Commando will critically hit 40% of their attacks.

 

A 40% critical hit chance means a Mercenary will critically hit at least one of their attacks 56.08% of the time (1 - ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.268))).

 

The whole issue in the heat against ammo debate, is that the regeneration is exactly the same. The Bounty Hunters get reduced heat costs in comparison and a higher high heat regeneration zone. Those two bonuses coupled with the same regeneration is the issue. The Bounty Hunter can recover from their rotation faster than the Trooper, resulting in less rapid shots and more flame bursts/unloads. This advantage also helps with vent heat (50 / 16 = 3.125) compared to recharge cells ( 6 / 2 = 3).

 

Each of the advantages are small, but all together they make a marked difference between the two classes. As a result of this, any Empire team with a Bounty Hunter will always out-perform a Republic team with a Trooper (assuming equally skilled teams as a result of a fixed matchmaking system).

 

Thanks for the correction. Although this now brings up another issue. If RailShot uses only the mainhand weapon, then does the Commando, by virtue of having a mainhand weapon with 20% greater base damage than the Merc have a tremendous advantage there?

 

Rail shot will do the same damage assuming the same gear and the same enemy.

Edited January 21, 2013 by FREDDOSPWN

[Macroeconomics]

The increased chance of giving retaliation/riposte is the off-set of having the higher damage potential. It is a disadvantage, but it will only happen an extra 3% (6.7% for inquisitors/consulars) of the time unless the target stacks defense.

 

I think you need to check your math. Assuming a 100% Accuracy rating and a 5% Defense chance for the target, the Commando will trigger Riposte 30.16% of the time when using Rapid Shots (1-.95^7). With the same Accuracy and Defense chance the Merc will trigger Riposte 92.91% of the time (1-(.95^5)(.62^5)). The Merc is triggering Riposte/Retaliation at 3x the rate the Commando does. That is not insignificant.

 

The issue of surge not applying to attacks works both ways though. If a Commando doesn't critically hit, then they do not critically hit. If a Mercenary does not critically hit, they can get their off-hand to critically hit and salvage some damage.

 

Which is exactly why the Merc has less burst. The averaging of its damage gives the Merc a much lower chance of having the Surge rating applied to the entirety of its abilities' base damage.

[DarkSaberMaster]

2/10.

[FREDDOSPWN]

I think you need to check your math. Assuming a 100% Accuracy rating and a 5% Defense chance for the target, the Commando will trigger Riposte 30.16% of the time when using Rapid Shots (1-.95^7). With the same Accuracy and Defense chance the Merc will trigger Riposte 92.91% of the time (1-(.95^5)(.62^5)). The Merc is triggering Riposte/Retaliation at 3x the rate the Commando does. That is not insignificant.

 

When I was doing my calculation, I assumed the MH pistol and the assault cannon had the same chance to trigger Riposte. I also did not know how many shots were fired and so left that area blank instead of using incorrect calculations. If you use my result in the Mercenary calculation you should get a similar result:

 

Mercenary

1 - (((1 - 0.05) ^ 5) * ((1 - (0.67 * 0.05)) ^ 5)) = 0.3474,

1 - ((1 - 0.05) * (1 - (0.67 * 0.05)))= 0.081825 (chance for one attack from each weapon to trigger Riposte)

 

Commando

1 - ((1 - 0.05) ^ 7) = 0.30166,

1 - (1 - 0.05) = 0.05 (chance for one attack to trigger Riposte)

 

As you can see, there is approximately (((0.3474 - 0.3017) / 0.3017) = 0.15147) 15% more Riposte triggers for the Mercenary compared to the Commando. This is not insignificant, but it is there to balance out the higher potential damage.

The problem you had was that you probably did:

(((Commando Riposte Trigger / Mercenary Riposte Trigger) * 100) = ) which should come out to ~87%.

The reason you didn't get this value was because you used 62% in you off-hand calculations (incorrectly), instead of (0.67 * 0.05) since only attacks that hit can trigger Riposte.

 

Which is exactly why the Merc has less burst. The averaging of its damage gives the Merc a much lower chance of having the Surge rating applied to the entirety of its abilities' base damage.

Yes, the Mercenary does not critically hit on both attacks as often. This is because they have higher potential damage (lower potential damage too).

My point is that they will deal more damage (because of OH hits) more often, which makes them stronger. What needs to be found out is the difference in damage of an assault cannon critical hit vs a critical hit MH + normal OH hit. Then we can see how game-breaking (or not) the issue really is.

 

When (if) you reply, please also include something that relates to the heat vs ammo discrepancy. This thread is (mostly) about heat vs ammo so I would appreciate it if you tried to stick to it.

 

On that note, is everyone really fine with one faction being clearly superior? (Since most people seem to play Empire, I can understand why.)

[SneiK]

Yet Tracer is a lot easier to track (find out where the caster is) than Grav Round.

 

What do you say to that, huh?

 

If you're PvE only, then you probably don't mind.

 

Sure, the heat/ammo needs to be fair, but the classes are still different, and one side has some minor advantages over the other (Ability delays, Ability effects etc). THOSE DIFFERENCES NEED TO BE LOOKED AT TOO.

 

Why would anybody mark their thread as 'nerf mercenaries', when they want justice to commandos, is beyond me and very stupid in MY OPINION (Now, you're getting offended, reporting me, and I'm getting forum bans for calling you stupid. It's just my opinion, nothing to get butthurt for. If you want justice, please remake the thread with a sensible name. I have nothing against fairness in mirror classes. The thread name as it is now though, is just to get peoples attention via flame, which is against the forum rules I believe, and so it will only get this thread closed.)

Edited January 21, 2013 by SneiK

[FREDDOSPWN]

Yet Tracer is a lot easier to track (find out where the caster is) than Grav Round.

 

What do you say to that, huh?

 

If you're PvE only, then you probably don't mind.

 

Sure, the heat/ammo needs to be fair, but the classes are still different, and one side has some minor advantages over the other (Ability delays, Ability effects etc). THOSE DIFFERENCES NEED TO BE LOOKED AT TOO.

 

Why would anybody mark their thread as 'nerf mercenaries', when they want justice to commandos, is beyond me and very stupid in MY OPINION (Now, you're getting offended, reporting me, and I'm getting forum bans for calling you stupid. It's just my opinion, nothing to get butthurt for. If you want justice, please remake the thread with a sensible name. I have nothing against fairness in mirror classes. The thread name as it is now though, is just to get peoples attention via flame, which is against the forum rules I believe, and so it will only get this thread closed.)

Yes, those differences do need to be looked at too. However, I do not have concrete values for all the ability animations and the mirrors, and so I cannot put forward a (good) case. From what I understand though, most of the glaring errors have been fixed. This is why I am prioritising heat and ammo over the animation delays, since I believe it to be a bigger balance issue.

 

The reason I named the thread "Nerf Mercenaries" was for two reasons:

1) Because I want to nerf Mercenaries (and Powertechs).

2) Leaving out "and Powertechs" would probably result in more views, and therefore more attention to the issue.

 

In my opening post I said there are three ways to solve the problem:

1) Nerf Mercenaries and Powertechs (give the same high regeneration zone and ability costs as a Trooper).

2) Buff Commandos and Vanguards (give Troopers 5 ammo cells of high regeneration).

3) Make ammo and heat the same thing.

 

Solution 3 seems the most sensible to me, but since it has been over a year it probably will not happen. As a result, I would prefer solution 1 (nerf) to solution 2 (buff).

The reason I am bringing this up now, is because of all the talk of ranked warzones and the need for class balance for them. Most people seem to be ignoring that we must first achieve faction balance before we can even hope to achieve class balance. I want justice for Commandos and Vanguards.

 

Please feel free to go more in-depth on your feelings on heat and ammo.

Edited January 21, 2013 by FREDDOSPWN

[Technohic]

I too like to focus on the least important problem these classess have. I find it a much better use of my time to debate about the .000000000000000000001% of the issues with the class.

[vimm]

I play one on both sides and perform way better on my commando...how is that possible?

 

What are you using to determine that?

[FREDDOSPWN]

I too like to focus on the least important problem these classess have. I find it a much better use of my time to debate about the .000000000000000000001% of the issues with the class.

 

As I have previously stated, this is an issue with the faction. Having one faction demonstrably better than the other is an extremely large issue.

A lot of people want a fun and competitive PvP experience, being forced to roll Empire to get that is not fair. Also, the issues you speak of are in regards to other classes, not the same class.

 

Buffing Bounty Hunters or Troopers without fixing one of the underlying causes will only exacerbate the problem.

 

Since you did not state otherwise in your post, I can only assume that you accept the difference between ammo and heat. If that is so, why do you think it is fine to be kept this way?

If not, why not?

 

What are you using to determine that?

 

From what I gather, many people find the discrete nature of ammo easier. Probably because you only have to worry about smaller numbers and ammo is visually represented better than heat. For example, there are clear breaks between each ammo, but no breaks every 10 heat (or at all).

 

Once again, feel free to discuss or complain about something previously brought up in this thread. However, heat and ammo are the focus. So please also try to put your thoughts on heat and ammo in each post along with whatever else you want to say.

[cashogy]

From what I gather, many people find the discrete nature of ammo easier. Probably because you only have to worry about smaller numbers and ammo is visually represented better than heat. For example, there are clear breaks between each ammo, but no breaks every 10 heat (or at all).

 

Once again, feel free to discuss or complain about something previously brought up in this thread. However, heat and ammo are the focus. So please also try to put your thoughts on heat and ammo in each post along with whatever else you want to say.

 

one bar fills up. the other bar empties.

 

if you cant understand one of those concepts, you might be Brick Tamland

[FREDDOSPWN]

one bar fills up. the other bar empties.

 

if you cant understand one of those concepts, you might be Brick Tamland

 

The fact that one bar fills up and the other empties is irrelevant. Heat could start at 100 and go down (with the exact same values) and it would still be a better resource system than ammo. I had hoped that I had proved that by now.

 

My post was to explain that other people (i.e. not I) find ammo easier to manage due to it's discrete nature, as opposed to heat. As a result of finding the resource easier to visually manage, they think that they are doing better on a Trooper than on a Bounty Hunter. This is not the case.

 

If you firmly believe that there is absolutely is no difference between heat and ammo, except that one goes up and the other goes down, please give some sort of proof. If you do, I will be happy to (try to) refute your argument. Also, if you find error with any of my reasonings, feel free to point them out.

Edited January 21, 2013 by FREDDOSPWN

[vermura]

I think it was cleared up a long time ago that Troopers actually use the same system as the Bounty Hunter and it just has a different visual representation (or vice-versa, I can't remember which).

 

Beyond the fact that one bar goes up and one bar goes down, there is absolutely no difference in numbers or calculations that are going on behind the scenes.

 

No imbalance found anywhere, no fixes needed.

 

^^ There is not now, and never has been, any difference at all, except the animations.

/thread.

[FREDDOSPWN]

^^ There is not now, and never has been, any difference at all, except the animations.

/thread.

 

Please re-read my opening post. Even if they carry the decimals behind-the-scenes, Bounty Hunters still have a higher maximum regeneration zone. From tests that other people have done, it is implied that they do not carry the decimals behind-the-scenes.

Again, I refer you to my opening post (specifically, the examples) for an easy test to check if heat and ammo are the same.

 

If you believe this is not the case, please bring proof instead of assertions.

[cashogy]

My post was to explain that other people (i.e. not I) find ammo easier to manage due to it's discrete nature, as opposed to heat. As a result of finding the resource easier to visually manage, they think that they are doing better on a Trooper than on a Bounty Hunter. This is not the case.

 

how is heat any less/more discrete than ammo?

 

i dont think that word means what you think it means

[FREDDOSPWN]

how is heat any less/more discrete than ammo?

 

i dont think that word means what you think it means

 

I like the reference.

 

Ammo has 12 solid blocks.

Heat is one continuous bar.

At a glance, it is generally easier to tell which is closer to the limit of their higher regeneration zone.

[Henu]

I play Merc arsenal and Trooper i dont have an overheating problem on any of the 2... were is the issue here? is it the other trees?

[FREDDOSPWN]

I play Merc arsenal and Trooper i dont have an overheating problem on any of the 2... were is the issue here? is it the other trees?

Played properly, neither have an overheating problem.

The problem is that a Bounty Hunter can do more before overheating due to higher maximum regeneration zone, and that the Bounty Hunter can do it more frequently due to lower ability costs.

The problem is the same for any Trooper tree compared to any Bounty Hunter mirror tree. The Bounty Hunter will always outperform (assuming equal skill).

[VasKur]

by the way it is an interesting question. hmm... for example, how many attacks can be applied before overheat? (without recovery of heat/ammo).

i mean 1 attack (only 1 same ability all the time) = 8 heat / 1 ammo for example. so, BH can have 100/8 = 12,5 attacks, and Trooper 12/1 = 12.

but i don't know about regeneration numbers of heat because i don't have BH char, and perhaps this difference is leveled because of difference in regen numbers,

but at first look it seems... a little unbalance really.

P.S. sorry for my English, i hope you'll understand what i wrote

[xxIncubixx]

ahhh i see what you did in this thread, well played sir well played *claps*

[FREDDOSPWN]

by the way it is an interesting question. hmm... for example, how many attacks can be applied before overheat? (without recovery of heat/ammo).

i mean 1 attack (only 1 same ability all the time) = 8 heat / 1 ammo for example. so, BH can have 100/8 = 12,5 attacks, and Trooper 12/1 = 12.

but i don't know about regeneration numbers of heat because i don't have BH char, and perhaps this difference is leveled because of difference in regen numbers,

but at first look it seems... a little unbalance really.

P.S. sorry for my English, i hope you'll understand what i wrote

 

See my examples in the opening post for some examples. Another easy example is a Powertech using Flame burst 3 times vs a Vanguard using Ion Pulse 3 times:

 

Time (s) Powertech Vanguard

T = 0 0 + 16 = 16 12 - 2 = 10,

T = 1 16 - 5 = 11, 10 + 0.6 = 10.6,

T = 1.5 11 + 16 = 27, 10.6 - 2 = 8.6,

T = 2 27 - 5 = 22, 8.6 + 0.6 = 9.2,

T = 3 22 - 5 = 17, 17 + 16 = 33 9.2 + 0.6 = 9.8, 9.8 - 2 = 7.8,

 

Sorry for the lousy format (regenerate resources every second, spend every 1.5 seconds).

 

As you can see, after three attacks the Vanguard is already in the middle regeneration zone.

Yes, the Vanguard will get out of the middle regeneration zone when T = 4, but the point is that the Powertech is still in his high regeneration zone by a fairly large margin.

You see the same thing with continuous use of these attacks when swapping into the low regeneration zone.

 

The Vanguard has to do:

Ion Pulse -> Ion Pulse -> Free Attack (to manage their ammo).

The Powertech can safely do:

Flame Burst -> Flame Burst -> Flame Burst.

 

This is fairly important because it affects how much pressure each class can put out. In 3 seconds the Bounty Hunter already has the advantage. The longer the fight, the bigger the advantage will get.

Edited January 22, 2013 by FREDDOSPWN

[yoomazir]

Hey, buddy, my merc gets already raped by any other adv class, and you're crying for more nerf to us?

 

**** off will ya, you & your maths.

Edited January 22, 2013 by yoomazir

[FREDDOSPWN]

Hey, buddy, my merc gets already raped by any other adv class, and you're crying for more nerf to us?

 

**** off will ya.

 

Imagine how all the Commandos feel then.

They do exactly the same as you. Except worse.

Is it fair that the Republic mirror (key word) is worse?

 

Yes, Mercenaries may be in a bad spot. Making one faction better than the other is not the correct way to go about balancing a game. This issue needs to be addressed before any sort competitive PvP can flourish.

[cashogy]

the amount of logic in this thread is mind bottling.