Current returns from expertise and primary stats

[L-RANDLE]

Randle's math is fails. He ****ed it up because he ignored trauma debuff.

 

Trauma debuff is calculated after all player added stats/rolls are calculated...

 

Multiply all my numbers by .7......

 

 

voila....

[Smashbrother]

Its not directly due to mitigation though... Its because their HP is low compared to the damage present in WZs...

 

 

The difference in mitigation between the two is less than 4%... Say someone has a smash rated @ 6K.

 

WH eats 4840.8

Recruit eats 5076

 

200HP difference, which is minor

 

but that is a 1/3 of a recruits HP pool, versus 1/4 or less of a WH HP pool.

 

This is "why its harder to keep a recruit up". Their HP pool is too small...

 

Recruit gear has what like 900 exp? That's like 15.39% less damage taken. A guy in full WH has about 1390 exp which is 25.26% more damage done. Let's use your 6k smash average. That means a WH guy attacking a recruit guy does 6359, while WH guy attacking WH guy does 6k because their expertise cancels each other out. That's 359 damage difference which is roughly 6%. And when you add multiple people all attacking the same guy, that extra damage adds up.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Smashbrother

[L-RANDLE]

Recruit gear has what like 900 exp? That's like 15.39% less damage taken. A guy in full WH has about 1390 exp which is 25.26% more damage done. Let's use your 6k smash average. That means a WH guy attacking a recruit guy does 6359, while WH guy attacking WH guy does 6k. That's 359 damage difference. And when you add multiple people all attacking the same guy, that extra damage adds up.

 

Wait... You can't do it that way.... My number assumed that the smash number was 6k for the WH player.... number is already accounting for their EXP.

 

We are talking about a WH player hitting a recruit... and you healing the recruit versus WH player hitting a WH and you healing that WH that was once in recruit.

 

The x players EXP level is inconsequential... It is what it is. The only difference to you, as a healer, is whether the mititgation on the player being healed is 15% or 19%... That's it..

 

So as a healer, given the same hit from the same player, its only a 3.92% mitigation difference if they were wearing one set versus the other.... That's pennies against a 6k smash... Recruits die faster cause their HP is too low and unable to absorb multiple hits, whether it is from one person or multiple people...

 

 

[edit] added clarification

Edited December 13, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[UncleOst]

Well I hate to admit it but I've got 2 lvl 27armorings, and a lvl27 hilt. Rest of my gear is war hero bis(power/surge), Expertise is at 1199, and I haven't had a smash hit over 7k since. Before I switched to the pve mods from warhero, I'd get 7k smashes every other match...

 

I'm running a jug tank hybrid, and I've subscribed to the enhanced endurance values. But as shi-cho rage spec, I was mildy disappointed. The smashes average 6.5k with pve mods...lol which is still good. But.

[L-RANDLE]

Well I hate to admit it but I've got 2 lvl 27armorings, and a lvl27 hilt. Rest of my gear is war hero bis(power/surge), Expertise is at 1199, and I haven't had a smash hit over 7k since. Before I switched to the pve mods from warhero, I'd get 7k smashes every other match...

 

I'm running a jug tank hybrid, and I've subscribed to the enhanced endurance values. But as shi-cho rage spec, I was mildy disappointed. The smashes average 6.5k with pve mods...lol which is still good. But.

 

Ninja nerf?

 

When did you switch?

[Smashbrother]

Wait... You can't do it that way.... My number assumed that the smash number was 6k for the WH player.... number is already accounting for their EXP.

 

We are talking about a WH player hitting a recruit... and you healing the recruit versus WH player hitting a WH and you healing that WH that was once in recruit.

 

The x players EXP level is inconsequential... It is what it is. The only difference to you, as a healer, is whether the mititgation on the player being healed is 15% or 19%... That's it..

 

So as a healer, given the same hit from the same player, its only a 3.92% mitigation difference if they were wearing one set versus the other.... That's pennies against a 6k smash... Recruits die faster cause their HP is too low and unable to absorb multiple hits, whether it is from one person or multiple people...

 

 

[edit] added clarification

 

My guardian hits 6k average against test dummies, so that is also another reason why I used it as baseline.

 

It does matter who is hitting the recruit geared guy, because WH guys hitting recruit guy will do more damage than recruit geared guy hitting recruit geared guy. This is how expertise works. When two players with equal expertise fight, their expertise cancels each other out and it's as if neither of them have any expertise (not counting the healing part).

Edited December 13, 2012 by Smashbrother

[abhaxus]

I could be wrong but doesn't the healing bonus from expertise affect healing output and healing received? So a 900 exp player gets less healing than a WH player as well as having a smaller pool and less mitigation.

 

I went from 1290 to 1393 exp on Tuesday on my sorc healer and had a negligible change in output on my innervate. Went from 1535 per tick to 1531 going from just 26 resolve armorings in bracers /belt to ewh ones. Still experimenting but I think I am going to keep it at 1390ish for a bit. You lose 1 percent hp (180/20k) for a little less than 1 percent mitigation I think.

 

On my op healer that I have never geared, going from 900 exp (recruit with bh bracers/belt and bm weapons) to 1290 (wh implants, ear, bracers, belt and rest bm) is a massive difference in survivability for pretty similar output. Just now I can output longer!

[L-RANDLE]

It does matter who is hitting the recruit geared guy, because WH guys hitting recruit guy will do more damage than recruit geared guy hitting recruit geared guy.

 

^ I don't dispute that... but your observation that a "recruit is harder to keep up" is soley based them being in recruit gear.

 

When they are getting attacked by better geared players with higher HP's(20%+) and higher attack ratings(through main stat/augmenting primarily) It's not because the player you are healing has a "low" mitigation number compared to "if they were in WH gear". It's because they have NO chance of winning a DPS race.

 

We are talking differences in EXP that amounts to

+6% Damage Out

+3.92% Mitigation

 

Going to WH from Recruit. These are small numbers, so how else can you explain why recruits are significantly harder to keep up than WHs? Your answer is HP and main stats...

 

Its a recurring theme, I know, but since I am at ~750 EXP(well 920 since 1.6), I shouldn't be able to kill anyone and be insta-killed by anyone who looks at me; right? Sorry, but it don't happen, and if I carried 1400EXP, I would be about the same level of player...

[Smashbrother]

^ I don't dispute that... but your observation that a "recruit is harder to keep up" is soley based them being in recruit gear.

 

When they are getting attacked by better geared players with higher HP's(20%+) and higher attack ratings(through main stat/augmenting primarily) It's not because the player you are healing has a "low" mitigation number compared to "if they were in WH gear". It's because they have NO chance of winning a DPS race.

 

We are talking differences in EXP that amounts to

+6% Damage Out

+3.92% Mitigation

 

Going to WH from Recruit. These are small numbers, so how else can you explain why recruits are significantly harder to keep up than WHs? Your answer is HP and main stats...

 

Its a recurring theme, I know, but since I am at ~750 EXP(well 920 since 1.6), I shouldn't be able to kill anyone and be insta-killed by anyone who looks at me; right? Sorry, but it don't happen, and if I carried 1400EXP, I would be about the same level of player...

 

I've also healed plenty of pve heroes with little to no exp who have 22k hps. They're also hard as **** to keep up because they're taking insane amounts of damage and my HPS cannot keep up when they're FFed because they're not mitigating any damage. Mitigation matters when healing because healers don't have infinite resources.

 

Expertise makes a huge difference and it's DR is incredibly small until you hit like 2000+. If it didn't, everyone would be running around in pve gear like they were doing pre 1.2. You act like 6% diff is nothing, yet 6% is significant, especially when multiple people are attacking the same guy. 6% is like 2-3 talent points for most classes.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Smashbrother]

Trauma debuff is calculated after all player added stats/rolls are calculated...

 

Multiply all my numbers by .7......

 

 

voila....

 

Where does it say that? You have a link?

 

Because this Q & A says differently.

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/20819-community-q-a-6-29-12

 

"Expertise counters the negative effects of "PVP Trauma," the debuff applied when engaging in combat with enemy players."

 

So it's not as simple as multiplying your numbers by .7 and voila.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Smashbrother

[ArchangelLBC]

I've also healed plenty of pve heroes with little to no exp who have 22k hps. They're also hard as **** to keep up because they're taking insane amounts of damage and my HPS cannot keep up when they're FFed because they're not mitigating any damage. Mitigation matters when healing because healers don't have infinite resources.

 

Expertise makes a huge difference and it's DR is incredibly small until you hit like 2000+. If it didn't, everyone would be running around in pve gear like they were doing pre 1.2. You act like 6% diff is nothing, yet 6% is significant, especially when multiple people are attacking the same guy. 6% is like 2-3 talent points for most classes.

 

 

The PVE heroes though have 0 expertise (possibly around 115 if they're using PVP relics anyway). 1390 expertise hitting on zero expertise is actually a pretty huge difference. He's saying that 1390 hitting on 900 isn't as much of a difference.

 

In this case, I'm inclined to agree with him.

[vimm]

Yes and no.

 

Main stat gives you both bonus damage and crit chance.

 

The bonus damage is straight line, like that from power.

 

The crit chance is on a (minimally curved, near-flat) diminishing returns curve.

 

So you can pretty much regard main stat as free from diminishing returns. Only it isn't if you're being strictly correct because of the crit chance element.

 

I am deliberately not reading the rest of this thread because I don't want my head to explode at people's statements.

 

You're doing yourself a service, lol.

[Smashbrother]

The PVE heroes though have 0 expertise (possibly around 115 if they're using PVP relics anyway). 1390 expertise hitting on zero expertise is actually a pretty huge difference. He's saying that 1390 hitting on 900 isn't as much of a difference.

 

In this case, I'm inclined to agree with him.

 

6% isn't much? That's better than a JK buff. How many people min/max just to get a couple % more damage out of their char?

 

What if BW said all shadows were going to a 6% damage buff next patch? Would you complain about that? I mean, according to you and randle, 6% is negligible right?

Edited December 14, 2012 by Smashbrother

[L-RANDLE]

6% isn't much? That's better than a JK buff. How many people min/max just to get a couple % more damage out of their char?

 

What if BW said all shadows were going to a 6% damage buff next patch? Would you complain about that? I mean, according to you and randle, 6% is negligible right?

 

Maras are not in a "good spot" compared to other classes though. No one thinks they need a damage buff because of where they are at now, so this example is somewhat invalid...

 

 

But if Maras where given a straight buff, it would be additive, with no conditions. In this case to "gain 6%", you lose.... about 6% in attack rating through main stat once your EXP rating is around 900 (due to diminishing returns).... Just because you see your attack rating via EXP read +6% damage, don't always mean +6%. Its conditional. So you have to decide if mitigation is worth the HP loss, and my contention is that the HP makes medpaks scale better, and higher, "natural" crit ratings is also nothing to sneeze at...

 

 

I know we are beating a dead horse, but, yes. In the grand scheme of attacks ratings in the 4-5k range, a 6% swing is not spit. And for all the people who say "it all adds up", let me know when it does because either way, you are going back to spawn if you are being focused/outnumbered.

[Evolixe]

because either way, you are going back to spawn if you are being focused/outnumbered.

 

Or maybe not. When you have proper gear being outnumbered doesn't always equal death. Winning a 2v1 in their favor is far from imposseble. Given you know what you do.

[Ramtar]

The percentage that Expertise gives to PvP Damage/Healing Boost and Damage Reduction should be increased by 5-10%.

[L-RANDLE]

Or maybe not. When you have proper gear being outnumbered doesn't always equal death. Winning a 2v1 in their favor is far from imposseble. Given you know what you do.

 

Two recruit tanks versus a WH DPS, sure....

[Smashbrother]

Maras are not in a "good spot" compared to other classes though. No one thinks they need a damage buff because of where they are at now, so this example is somewhat invalid...

 

Your argument is that 6% doesn't matter though. So why does it matter to you if BW just gave them 6% more damage.

 

But if Maras where given a straight buff, it would be additive, with no conditions. In this case to "gain 6%", you lose.... about 6% in attack rating through main stat once your EXP rating is around 900 (due to diminishing returns).... Just because you see your attack rating via EXP read +6% damage, don't always mean +6%. Its conditional. So you have to decide if mitigation is worth the HP loss, and my contention is that the HP makes medpaks scale better, and higher, "natural" crit ratings is also nothing to sneeze at...

 

 

I know we are beating a dead horse, but, yes. In the grand scheme of attacks ratings in the 4-5k range, a 6% swing is not spit. And for all the people who say "it all adds up", let me know when it does because either way, you are going back to spawn if you are being focused/outnumbered.

 

Have you even seen a graph of the exp DR curve? Pretty sure someone linked it earlier in the thread. The DR on it is small until you hit a stupidly high number we can't reach at this point in the game. There is no soft cap for expertise. Unlike surge for example, there is no point we can currently reach where exp becomes insignificant.

 

When you do competitive RWZs and as a healer you take like 300k+ damage. Yes, it matters. This is why serious pvpers level alts to get all class buffs. This is why the min/max their gear.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Smashbrother

[franknelson]

Two recruit tanks versus a WH DPS, sure....

 

This statement tells me that either you are trolling or you have little skill... When my Sent had mostly just battlemaster I could around 50% of the time 2v1 either Civil War or Novare depending on who was there at the node. And lots of time's it was against opponents who had anywhere from 16-19k hp which either means they had better than recruit or PvE gear, whos to say though...

 

Also saying that someone in full recruit vs someone in full Wh is harder to keep up based solely on hp is really shortsighted. At first glance that may make sence and to an extent it is. but other factors also come into play. Like how much damage they will mitigate during the encounter as well as receiving less overall heals because in a PvP situation healers heal a person with less EXP less..

[DaedalusV]

I haven't personally switched away from the; "I want max expertise" school of thought on my sage.

 

1) My tank buddy supplies a huge amount of hitpoints through guard and my expertise suddently matters for mitigation since lower amount of damage done to me, translates into a lower amount of damage done to him from guard damage.

 

2) I have no defensive cooldowns (outside WZ adrenal) So the point brought up in the thread earlier is moot (mitigation from dfcds > expertise mitigation)

 

3) healing output gain is minimal (only 1:1 ratio switch possible is expertise for power, critical or endurance via crystals)

 

Now if I had a scoundrel, I would abuse the **** out of stealth, cover mechanics, def cds, spamable free instaheal, and all the other nifty little gimmicks they get. Mercs gota def cd and heavy armour, they might use lower expertise to their advantage as well..

 

Me. I take any dmg reduction from any source, any day.

[Smashbrother]

I haven't personally switched away from the; "I want max expertise" school of thought on my sage.

 

1) My tank buddy supplies a huge amount of hitpoints through guard and my expertise suddently matters for mitigation since lower amount of damage done to me, translates into a lower amount of damage done to him from guard damage.

 

2) I have no defensive cooldowns (outside WZ adrenal) So the point brought up in the thread earlier is moot (mitigation from dfcds > expertise mitigation)

 

3) healing output gain is minimal (only 1:1 ratio switch possible is expertise for power, critical or endurance via crystals)

 

Now if I had a scoundrel, I would abuse the **** out of stealth, cover mechanics, def cds, spamable free instaheal, and all the other nifty little gimmicks they get. Mercs gota def cd and heavy armour, they might use lower expertise to their advantage as well..

 

Me. I take any dmg reduction from any source, any day.

 

Your personal mitigation and defense has no bearing on how much damage someone who guards you takes. When someone attacks a guarded target, the damage is split evenly and two rolls are done separately as if two attacks occurred. One for you and your mitigation, and one for the tank and his.

 

But like someone said earlier, the healing boost from exp affects how much you're healed for because it directly eats into trauma, and that is partly why exp > all.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Smashbrother

[L-RANDLE]

Your argument is that 6% doesn't matter though. So why does it matter to you if BW just gave them 6% more damage. ....

 

Yes the EXP difference between recruit and WH is 6%, and is not the SOLE reason why it is god awful.... In fact I would say that the 40% difference in main stat and 10% difference in END (unaugmented mind you) has a FAR greater impact on why 6% pale in comparison to those numbers... Add in augments for WH, and again the EXP difference is minor in the gap between recruit and WH.

 

Have you even seen a graph of the exp DR curve? Pretty sure someone linked it earlier in the thread. The DR on it is small until you hit a stupidly high number we can't reach at this point in the game. There is no soft cap for expertise. Unlike surge for example, there is no point we can currently reach where exp becomes insignificant..

 

Yes, I have seen the graphs over and over again, but NO ONE has actually shown tradeoffs in those charts. It's a bunch of numbers and equations without any analysis to this subject. Far too often, people are concerned with big numbers, without not even understanding what they mean.... As Dax says, there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom....

 

It's easy... your tool tip is your friend.....

 

I just stripped myself down and did a test with one piece (as to eliminate any DR on EXP).

 

EWH belt with a 39/39/50 Armoring

EWH belt with a 72/58 Armoring

 

Both had the BiS EWH mod, but which one do you think had the higher TT rating after being calcd for PvP?

 

 

So with that case, carrying EXP is actually a nerf by 1%(from a damage aspect) So if you accept that, the next logical conclusion is that carrying a lower number is not actually a "bad" thing....

 

 

When you do competitive RWZs and as a healer you take like 300k+ damage. Yes, it matters. This is why serious pvpers level alts to get all class buffs. This is why the min/max their gear.

Again... you say this but those min/max and buffs are adds. There is no tradeoff in those scenarios... I don't know how else to get you to understand the difference..

 

This statement tells me that either you are trolling or you have little skill... When my Sent had mostly just battlemaster I could around 50% of the time 2v1 either Civil War or Novare depending on who was there at the node. And lots of time's it was against opponents who had anywhere from 16-19k hp which either means they had better than recruit or PvE gear, whos to say though...

 

Also saying that someone in full recruit vs someone in full Wh is harder to keep up based solely on hp is really shortsighted. At first glance that may make sence and to an extent it is. but other factors also come into play. Like how much damage they will mitigate during the encounter as well as receiving less overall heals because in a PvP situation healers heal a person with less EXP less..

 

You caught me.... I'm a trollllooooo. I have no skill, but I can +-*/, so my "skill" is based on giving myself the best possible stats in PvP since its based on ......stats.... and trust me, they probably were not in PvE gear and more than likely not in recruit either(you do know most WH HPs are in the neighborhood of 19k right?).

 

Also your "example" is you as a SENT... Should I speak on that?

 

Do that with a DPS BM Sage and I might be impressed.

Just further justifies my stance since the EXP difference between recruit and BM is even lower

 

[Smashbrother]

Yes, I have seen the graphs over and over again, but NO ONE has actually shown tradeoffs in those charts. It's a bunch of numbers and equations without any analysis to this subject. Far too often, people are concerned with big numbers, without not even understanding what they mean.... As Dax says, there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom....

 

It's easy... your tool tip is your friend.....

 

I just stripped myself down and did a test with one piece (as to eliminate any DR on EXP).

 

EWH belt with a 39/39/50 Armoring

EWH belt with a 72/58 Armoring

 

Both had the BiS EWH mod, but which one do you think had the higher TT rating after being calcd for PvP?

 

 

So with that case, carrying EXP is actually a nerf by 1%(from a damage aspect) So if you accept that, the next logical conclusion is that carrying a lower number is not actually a "bad" thing....

 

 

 

It's actually 72/52 for the pve armorings.

 

Trading 3 pvp armorings for 3 pve armorings nets you +99 main stat, +39 end, -150 exp. With the 6% talent and 5% from consular buff that's +110 main stat, which is roughly 22 bonus damage. WIth trooper buff the end becomes +41.

 

I'll be using my sage for this example. She has 1393 exp which is 25.26% bonus dam, 20.17% DR, 14.02% healing. My tooltip for telekinetic throw says 3540 base damage.

 

3540 + (3540 x .2526) = 4434.2

 

Now let's say my sage is fighting another sage who is exactly the same except they swapped 3 armorings so they have 150 less expertise than her. The other guy has 1243 exp which is 23.3% dam, 18.9% DR, and 12.89% heals. My TT does this much to him:

 

4434.2 - (4434.2 x .189) = 3596.14

 

Now the sage with 150 less expertise but 110 more main stat has a TT that does 3614 baseline. With his expertise he does

 

3614 + (3614 x .233) = 4456.06

 

When he attacks me he does

 

4456.06 - (4456.06 x .2017) = 3557.27

 

So as you can see, the guy who switched out 3 pvp armorings for 3 pve armorings does less damage when the two of them are fighting. So you and everyone other guy who thinks swapping out pvp armorings for pve ones in order to do more damage, is wrong.

 

Then there's also the nice healing boost you get from having more expertise. The 410 health does not make up for the loss in damage and the loss in heals. This gets compounded even more when you get rid of more expertise.

 

Math > you

Edited December 17, 2012 by Smashbrother

[daripa]

It's actually 72/52 for the pve armorings.

 

Trading 3 pvp armorings for 3 pve armorings nets you +99 main stat, +39 end, -150 exp. With the 6% talent and 5% from consular buff that's +110 main stat, which is roughly 22 bonus damage. WIth trooper buff the end becomes +41.

 

I'll be using my sage for this example. She has 1393 exp which is 25.26% bonus dam, 20.17% DR, 14.02% healing. My tooltip for telekinetic throw says 3540 base damage.

 

3540 + (3540 x .2526) = 4434.2

 

Now let's say my sage is fighting another sage who is exactly the same except they swapped 3 armorings so they have 150 less expertise than her. The other guy has 1243 exp which is 23.3% dam, 18.9% DR, and 12.89% heals. My TT does this much to him:

 

4434.2 - (4434.2 x .189) = 3596.14

 

Now the sage with 150 less expertise but 110 more main stat has a TT that does 3614 baseline. With his expertise he does

 

3614 + (3614 x .233) = 4456.06

 

When he attacks me he does

 

4456.06 - (4456.06 x .2017) = 3557.27

 

So as you can see, the guy who switched out 3 pvp armorings for 3 pve armorings does less damage when the two of them are fighting. So you and everyone other guy who thinks swapping out pvp armorings for pve ones in order to do more damage, is wrong.

 

Then there's also the nice healing boost you get from having more expertise. The 410 health does not make up for the loss in damage and the loss in heals. This gets compounded even more when you get rid of more expertise.

 

Math > you

 

You forgot the +39 endurance and +0,53% crit in your math.

 

And the PVE guy makes more dmg, if both attack the same enemy.

 

PVE Arm > PVP Arm

Math > you

Edited December 17, 2012 by daripa

[islander]

I wish this thread existed a couple weeks ago. Then I wouldn't have wasted the money on a couple PvE armorings, heh.

 

It's not that it lacks value, but certainly not enough to justify the cost for PvP. Ah well, I'm going back to full expertise again. Thanks Smash.