Current returns from expertise and primary stats

[cashogy]

My calcs do account for EXP bonus... What did I miss? Take my calcs and use your own EXP mitigation bonus on each...

 

do what you want. but 9 PvE armorings is not BiS PvP.

 

replacing 1 or 2 is. but you need ~20% expertise. what you suggest will reduce your expertise by 450.

 

full WH gives ~1300 expertise iirc. that is ~23% expertise bonus. drop that down to 850, and youre looking at barely 16%.

 

totally worth it

Edited December 18, 2012 by cashogy

[Yeochins]

The most expertise you can afford to loose is 141-182 depending on your class:

 

• 50 from your belt armoring
  
• 50 from your bracer armoring
  
• 41 from the expertise crystal
  
• 41 from the expertise crystal in your offhand (marauder) or 50 from another armor piece
  

 

You cannot really afford to loose more before the combined loss of damage mitigation and damage dealt is much more than the small gain in main-stat.

 

Your effective damage on max-ed expertise geared players when you sacrifice more than 182 expertise will be far smaller than the effective damage you're taking from them.

 

Optimization gains by swapping out PvP armorings/mods for PvE armorings/mods is negligible. People who think it's a major gain are clearly very new to PvP. The biggest gains come from:

• Exchanging Critical/Surge, Crit/Alarcrity for Power/Surge (on mods) where permissible (depends heavily on your spec, you need to keep up a minimum critical rating.)
  
• Exchanging Power/Surge for Power/Alacrity if you have too much surge
  
• Exchanging Main-stat heavy mods for Power heavy mods
  
• Exchanging expertise crystals for power crystals
  

 

More HP doesn't mean anything. If you don't have the damage mitigation from expertise you aren't surviving long. With 20% damage mitigation a hit for 5000 HP becomes 4000 HP. Internal damage is mitigated by expertise. There is no amount of any other statistic which will mitigate internal/elemental damage like expertise can.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Yeochins

[Smashbrother]

The most expertise you can afford to loose is 141-182 depending on your class:

 

• 50 from your belt armoring
  
• 50 from your bracer armoring
  
• 41 from the expertise crystal
  
• 41 from the expertise crystal in your offhand (marauder) or 50 from another armor piece
  

 

You cannot really afford to loose more before the combined loss of damage mitigation and damage dealt is much more than the small gain in main-stat.

 

Your effective damage on max-ed expertise geared players when you sacrifice more than 182 expertise will be far smaller than the effective damage you're taking from them.

 

Optimization gains by swapping out PvP armorings/mods for PvE armorings/mods is negligible. People who think it's a major gain are clearly very new to PvP. The biggest gains come from:

• Exchanging Critical/Surge, Crit/Alarcrity for Power/Surge (on mods) where permissible (depends heavily on your spec, you need to keep up a minimum critical rating.)
  
• Exchanging Power/Surge for Power/Alacrity if you have too much surge
  
• Exchanging Main-stat heavy mods for Power heavy mods
  
• Exchanging expertise crystals for power crystals
  

 

More HP doesn't mean anything. If you don't have the damage mitigation from expertise you aren't surviving long. With 20% damage mitigation a hit for 5000 HP becomes 4000 HP. Internal damage is mitigated by expertise. There is no amount of any other statistic which will mitigate internal/elemental damage like expertise can.

 

Should go look at my post earlier showing the math that using any pve armorings is worse off.

[Yeochins]

Should go look at my post earlier showing the math that using any pve armorings is worse off.

 

Not the case for:

1. Carnage Marauders
   
2. Rage Marauders
   
3. Rage Juggernaughts
   
4. Pyrotech Powertech (debateable)
   
5. Corruption Sorcerer (debateable)
   

 

Those specific advanced classes get a significant boost from either free critical hits or the extra HP healed over time. By swapping out PvP for PvE armorings/crystals they can give themselves about a 2% boost in damage (after factoring in reduced damage amplification). Through their free critical hit this boost increases to a little less than 4%.

 

The loss in expertise damage mitigation is not significant considering their defensive cooldowns. Marauders having the better deal with undying rage, cloak of pain, and saber ward.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Yeochins

[Smashbrother]

Not the case for:

1. Carnage Marauders
   
2. Rage Marauders
   
3. Rage Juggernaughts
   
4. Pyrotech Powertech (debateable)
   
5. Corruption Sorcerer (debateable)
   

 

Those specific advanced classes get a significant boost from either free critical hits or the extra HP healed over time. By swapping out PvP for PvE armorings/crystals they can give themselves about a 2% boost in damage (after factoring in reduced damage amplification). Through their free critical hit this boost increases to a little less than 4%.

 

The loss in expertise damage mitigation is not significant considering their defensive cooldowns. Marauders having the better deal with undying rage, cloak of pain, and saber ward.

 

No it doesn't. I already showed in detailed math it doesn't. A player with 1393 exp player will do more damage to a 1243 exp player than vice versa.

 

The 410 hp is negligible in the course of a 15 min WZ. The healing boost and mitigation is better over the course of a WZ.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Smashbrother

[GrandMike]

No no no, PvE gear is better, please everyone equip PvE gear in WZs.

 

Thank you

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandMike

[MSpectre]

I removed a WH armoring and replaced it with a Rakata Armoring with higher Str and End minus the 50 expertise and the end result was a 20 point loss in max damage. My expertise total was around 1100 at the time so I figured I could lose some of it, I guess not.

 

 

SWTOR PVP = Teams Gear>>>Teams Class composition>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Teams Skill

Edited December 18, 2012 by MSpectre

[Groncho]

No no no, PvE gear is better, please everyone equip PvE gear in WZs.

 

Thank you

 

i will add

and please run in another team

[JMCH]

No it doesn't. I already showed in detailed math it doesn't. A player with 1393 exp player will do more damage to a 1243 exp player than vice versa.

 

The 410 hp is negligible in the course of a 15 min WZ. The healing boost and mitigation is better over the course of a WZ.

Exp crystals are crap, the remaining is clearly debateable as a healer, less as a damage dealer or tank.

 

My heal merc went better with power crystals and BH belt, it'll become even better with upgraded EWH belt/bracers.

[DaedalusV]

Take a pill bro.... Its has no baring on who I fight... I dont care who I fight.. WH or not. I have more potential in my BiS build.... is it really that hard to envision?

 

So according to you, the damage reduction your enemy has from expertise has no bearing at all on the effective damage output you have when attacking that guy?

 

so you deal the same amount of damage to a recruit geared guy, a max expertise guy and a PvE hero with no expertise?

 

Without playing mathwiz I'd say you are dead wrong.

Well. your statement; "I have the same potential." is correct from a pure theoretical point of view since it's your enemy that reduces your damage potential by choosing to max expertise instead of going for a theoretical higher output.

When all things are equal, then yes, skimping on expertise gives you more, but that only works if everyone skimps on expertise.

 

Max expertise has a higher dmg reduction than you. they will mitigate some (if not all) of the additional damage you get from mainstat.

Pve armourings are a marginal improvement on damage/healing output if you do it once or twice. (belt, bracer) But you gimp yourself if you switch too much PvE gear into the mix.

 

PvP is about burst.

By decreasing expertise, you take three hits on your survivability. First is a decrease in your damage mitigation (some classes can afford that hit better than others due to def cds) Second hit is the trauma debuff affecting you more with lower expertise (This may only affect healers, not sure if the target's expertise is used when a healer heals someone else, but if it does, then help your healers heal you, get moar expertise)

Third hit is indirect since it is the increase in damage output an enemy recieves by having higher expertise than the target he hits.

 

TL;DR:

If you think the target's expertise rating doesn't matter, then you are wrong.

[Wainamoinen]

This really should be possible to settle.

 

The only way to get different answers are to a) disagree about how it's calculated - there will be a correct answer, done; b) disagree about the balance of mitigation/damage/healing - more subjective, but you'd still expect a general best option.

 

Also, is the argument that expertise is ALWAYS the best stat-for-stat option?

Or, if not, merely the level at which it is matched by another stat (and which stat)? This might vary from class/spec to class/spec.

 

We do have equations for working it out. Might do some calculations.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Wainamoinen

[Smashbrother]

Exp crystals are crap, the remaining is clearly debateable as a healer, less as a damage dealer or tank.

 

My heal merc went better with power crystals and BH belt, it'll become even better with upgraded EWH belt/bracers.

 

Nope. Exp > all.

[Smashbrother]

This really should be possible to settle.

 

The only way to get different answers are to a) disagree about how it's calculated - there will be a correct answer, done; b) disagree about the balance of mitigation/damage/healing - more subjective, but you'd still expect a general best option.

 

Also, is the argument that expertise is ALWAYS the best stat-for-stat option?

Or, if not, merely the level at which it is matched by another stat (and which stat)? This might vary from class/spec to class/spec.

 

We do have equations for working it out. Might do some calculations.

 

I've already settled this argument. Go look at my math earlier in the thread. If you find something wrong, than say so. If not, then exp > all.

[tronot]

All this talk about damage. What about healing?

[islander]

All this talk about damage. What about healing?

 

As a sorc in full WH gear (1390) and 1900 willpower, I crit heal people in the 6200-6600 range with my dark infusion. This pretty much matches what I was pulling off at 2000 will and 1290 expertise.

[tronot]

As a sorc in full WH gear (1390) and 1900 willpower, I crit heal people in the 6200-6600 range with my dark infusion. This pretty much matches what I was pulling off at 2000 will and 1290 expertise.

 

I'm just mostly curious. I recently swapped in 2 Campaign armorings for the set bonus (Operative heals), although I haven't had a chance to see how it affects my overall healing yet.

[Akeba]

My calcs do account for EXP bonus... What did I miss? Take my calcs and use your own EXP mitigation bonus on each...

 

Don't worry Randle.. you got it right. Don't feed the trolls.

[Smashbrother]

Don't worry Randle.. you got it right. Don't feed the trolls.

 

The idiot doesn't realize that your opponent's expertise level matters, and apparently, neither do you.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Akeba]

You are quite aggressive.. and while correct that opponents expertise does matter for damage reduction, that doesn't change that if you hit THE SAME TARGET with an attack that is higher damage BEFORE expertise is applied, it deals more damage than a lower damage attack.

 

I'll take your previous example:

 

It's actually 72/52 for the pve armorings.

 

1393 exp which is 25.26% bonus dam, 20.17% DR, 14.02% healing. My tooltip for telekinetic throw says 3540 base damage.

 

3540 + (3540 x .2526) = 4434.2

 

1243 exp which is 23.3% dam, 18.9% DR, and 12.89% heals. My TT does this much to him:

 

4434.2 - (4434.2 x .189) = 3596.14

 

Now the sage with 150 less expertise but 110 more main stat has a TT that does 3614 baseline. With his expertise he does

 

3614 + (3614 x .233) = 4456.06

 

When he attacks me he does

 

4456.06 - (4456.06 x .2017) = 3557.27

 

The 410 health does not make up for the loss in damage and the loss in heals. This gets compounded even more when you get rid of more expertise.

 

Math > you

 

Sure.. when hitting each other, the pvp armored character does 38.87 more damage to the pve armored character. But what happens when they hit the same target.. a weakly geared 1243 exp:

 

w/ 1393 exp:

 

4434.2 - (4434.2 x .189) = 3596.14

 

w/ 1243 exp:

 

4456.06 - (4456.06 x .189) = 3613.82

 

The person with less expertise hits harder! Again, not even including the additional 0.53% crit mentioned earlier.

 

Also, if you were going 1v1 with that low exp character that had 410 more life than you.. you were hitting him for 38.87 more damage per hit! That means it'll only take you 11 hits to carve through that extra 410 health. But if you are each hitting each other at the same time, and the same number of times.. you won't be living long enough to see that come to fruition (11 * 3557.27 = 39129.97 - I don't think sages can get that much HP).

 

EDIT: Just incase it wasn't clear the 11 comes from 410/38.87=10.55, rounding up since you can't perform half of a hit.

 

This concept is known as effective health. You can see on your character window how much expertise contributes to damage reduction, and compare the tradeoff in health. 410 health on a 20k hp character is ~2%, 50 expertise better give you >2% damage reduction, or you are losing out in effective health.

 

The previous 1v1 example also applies in group PvP or WZs, but instead of 1 person needing to hit you 11 times, now its 5 people hitting you twice (and 1 more hit). If your healer is good enough to keep you up through 39129.97 damage (in order to negate the 410 health), then kudos sir.. you should be on your knees kissing your healer's feet.

 

In addition, expertise does not affect heals received. According to the healing tooltip under expertise on your character window:

 

"Increases health restored when healing a player or companion character who is involved in PvP combat."

 

This applies to heals YOU are casting, and does not boost heals that you are receiving.. which means that if you are solely focusing on dealing damage, you don't care about this percentage on your character. This also means that the softcap for expertise between healing characters and damage characters is different.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Akeba

[Ariak-]

The idiot doesn't realize that your opponent's expertise level matters, and apparently, neither do you.

 

You are right, it absolutely does matter...... Having said that, I have noticed a definite increase in my damage output by dropping in 2-5 pve mods. I have tried them all. Now that may have something to do with who i was playing at the time. If they were lower or similiar expertise then sure that needs to be factored in. I also noticed a decrease in my survivability.

 

The real question is..... what's that perfect balance? And should every class be considering this? I saw the post earlier how only certain AC's should consider this, but i am not convinced.

 

My highest output per tick of whatever is being cast has come with between 1100 and 1200 exp as a dps. That isnt to say that was my highest warzone total. I think i put out 650k in a voidstar when i was wearing around 1250 - 1300 expertise. Again that may have just been based on external factors and composition of the other team.

 

I thoroughly enjoy these threads, but Smash you really need to calm down. State your points and do the math but there is no reason to be such a hot head.

 

So having said all that, can we run more in depth calcs on this subject? I know Randle has probably ran them until hes sick of it .... it just feels like both sides of this are leaving things out.

[L-RANDLE]

The idiot doesn't realize that your opponent's expertise level matters, and apparently, neither do you.

 

LOL.... I tried to simplify it so even you can see it. Now more are actually chiming in telling you similar stories.... I guess I should rephrase it... I don't care about your EXP level because either:

a. We are even in effective output(WH), and it comes down to skill/class.

b. I have an advantage(any one below WH).

 

 

All of this with EXP less than 1000 and running a hybrid tank spec, but according to you I should have no chance against a recruit, let alone a BM or WH. Until I blow them away... You have no way to explain why either besides blind faith in a number....

 

der, der its so much bigger than yours, der der...

 

 

as Cutler says "whatever"....

 

It's all in game... you can try it for youself, but you won't cause you can't admit that you might have been fed a bill of goods that is HIGHLY overstated.. It's ok.... I understand....

 

I was also called an idiot when I said EXP needed to be buffed prior to 1.2 for these exact reasons. So I will put my Ms. Cleo hat on and predict, 'Don't be surprised if they buff the formula again." Can I get a trademark for SWTOR Psychic Network?

Edited December 19, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Wainamoinen]

I've already settled this argument. Go look at my math earlier in the thread. If you find something wrong, than say so. If not, then exp > all.

 

Did so. I'd say you're right in the situation you present, where you're trading 150 expertise for 110 main stat (main stat is the best possible other stat to trade for me, and I don't much value the endurance - it's nice, but I'm all about opening burst).

 

Point for point though, power gives enough extra damage that it's worth it despite the loss of mitigation (I need burst, while hopefully not taking damage), so I've swapped my expertise crystals for power, as there you can get a point-for-point swap. All the rest of my mods are PvP though, as I felt the tradeoff was too steep, the loss of mitigation was too great for the small increase in dps a switch would give.

 

edit: should mention that I created a spreadsheet that calculated the amount of damage each abiliity would do at different stat levels to make this call, I didn't go by how it "felt".

Edited December 19, 2012 by Wainamoinen

[Smashbrother]

You are quite aggressive.. and while correct that opponents expertise does matter for damage reduction, that doesn't change that if you hit THE SAME TARGET with an attack that is higher damage BEFORE expertise is applied, it deals more damage than a lower damage attack.

 

I'll take your previous example:

 

 

 

Sure.. when hitting each other, the pvp armored character does 38.87 more damage to the pve armored character. But what happens when they hit the same target.. a weakly geared 1243 exp:

 

w/ 1393 exp:

 

4434.2 - (4434.2 x .189) = 3596.14

 

w/ 1243 exp:

 

4456.06 - (4456.06 x .189) = 3613.82

 

The person with less expertise hits harder! Again, not even including the additional 0.53% crit mentioned earlier.

 

Also, if you were going 1v1 with that low exp character that had 410 more life than you.. you were hitting him for 38.87 more damage per hit! That means it'll only take you 11 hits to carve through that extra 410 health. But if you are each hitting each other at the same time, and the same number of times.. you won't be living long enough to see that come to fruition (11 * 3557.27 = 39129.97 - I don't think sages can get that much HP).

 

EDIT: Just incase it wasn't clear the 11 comes from 410/38.87=10.55, rounding up since you can't perform half of a hit.

 

This concept is known as effective health. You can see on your character window how much expertise contributes to damage reduction, and compare the tradeoff in health. 410 health on a 20k hp character is ~2%, 50 expertise better give you >2% damage reduction, or you are losing out in effective health.

 

The previous 1v1 example also applies in group PvP or WZs, but instead of 1 person needing to hit you 11 times, now its 5 people hitting you twice (and 1 more hit). If your healer is good enough to keep you up through 39129.97 damage (in order to negate the 410 health), then kudos sir.. you should be on your knees kissing your healer's feet.

 

In addition, expertise does not affect heals received. According to the healing tooltip under expertise on your character window:

 

"Increases health restored when healing a player or companion character who is involved in PvP combat."

 

This applies to heals YOU are casting, and does not boost heals that you are receiving.. which means that if you are solely focusing on dealing damage, you don't care about this percentage on your character. This also means that the softcap for expertise between healing characters and damage characters is different.

 

Yes I know how expertise is designed. Two people fighting that have equal expertise values is the same as if they both had 0 expertise. Yes, in a perfect world where I can make sure everyone has the same or less expertise than me, I'd be rocking pve gear. Alas that's not how pvp works, so you're entire premise that we should spend 3 million plus and hope all our opponents have the same expertise than us is lol.

 

Good luck with that in RWZs. Me and all my friends who know what they're doing run with max or nearly max expertise, and thus we all do more damage than you and your pve armoring wearing buddies, while taking less, and healing more.

 

Over the course of a 15 min WZ. Mitigation matters more than hp. Healers don't have infinite resources. You're also rarely if ever at full HP, so that extra 410 hp only matters on the first hit you take.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Akeba]

Yes I know how expertise is designed. Two people fighting that have equal expertise values is the same as if they both had 0 expertise. Yes, in a perfect world where I can make sure everyone has the same or less expertise than me, I'd be rocking pve gear. Alas that's not how pvp works, so you're entire premise that we should spend 3 million plus and hope all our opponents have the same expertise than us is lol.

 

Good luck with that in RWZs. Me and all my friends who know what they're doing run with max or nearly max expertise, and thus we all do more damage than you and your pve armoring wearing buddies, while taking less, and healing more.

 

Over the course of a 15 min WZ. Mitigation matters more than hp. Healers don't have infinite resources. You're also rarely if ever at full HP, so that extra 410 hp only matters on the first hit you take.

 

Did you even read what I wrote? You say you know how expertise works, and then you completely miss the point. This has nothing to do with whether or not someone has the same expertise value as someone else. This has to do with how much damage one can do to a target. Period. Some amount of trading PvE armorings for PvP armorings and PvE barrels/hilts for PvP barrels/hilts will increase your damage to any target, regardless of their expertise.

 

I gave you the numbers of two people with different levels of expertise (your numbers), attacking the same target. I also gave you the numbers for someone with less expertise attacking someone with more expertise. The math shows that in both cases, the person with less than maximum expertise wins.. to a point. As a damage dealer, it looks like the optimum expertise value for dealing maximum damage is somewhere in the 1000-1100 range.

 

As for the fellow trading power crystals for expertise: that is exactly what you want to be doing. However, it doesn't stop there. PvE armorings and barrels/hilts will increase your damage and your life by more than the amount of displaced expertise.

 

And I do participate quite successfully in Ranked WZs.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Akeba

[Smashbrother]

Did you even read what I wrote? You say you know how expertise works, and then you completely miss the point. This has nothing to do with whether or not someone has the same expertise value as someone else. This has to do with how much damage one can do to a target. Period. Some amount of trading PvE armorings for PvP armorings and PvE barrels/hilts for PvP barrels/hilts will increase your damage to any target, regardless of their expertise.

 

I gave you the numbers of two people with different levels of expertise (your numbers), attacking the same target. I also gave you the numbers for someone with less expertise attacking someone with more expertise. The math shows that in both cases, the person with less than maximum expertise wins.. to a point. As a damage dealer, it looks like the optimum expertise value for dealing maximum damage is somewhere in the 1000-1100 range.

 

 

 

As for the fellow trading power crystals for expertise: that is exactly what you want to be doing. However, it doesn't stop there. PvE armorings and barrels/hilts will increase your damage and your life by more than the amount of displaced expertise.

 

And I do participate quite successfully in Ranked WZs.

 

I already addressed the crap amount of crit you get from swapping in a later post. Even with crit factored in, the 1393 exp guy still does more damage to the 1243 exp guy than vice versa.

 

It takes approximately 11gcds or 16.5s to overcome that 410 hp difference. When your team doesn't suck, it's easy enough to live longer than that with proper guards and taunts going. If you can live longer than 15s, than the expertise wins out.

 

Take two completely equal teams (comp, skill, luck, lag, whatever) except one has 1393 exp, while the other has 1243 exp because they swapped some armorings. The 1393 exp team will win every time.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Smashbrother