Current returns from expertise and primary stats

[Akeba]

I already addressed the crap amount of crit you get from swapping in a later post. Even with crit factored in, the 1393 exp guy still does more damage to the 1243 exp guy than vice versa.

 

I barely even mentioned the crit, and didn't need to include it in the rudimentary calculations to show that a blend of PvE and PvP gear will deal more damage overall. I tried to do this before and you either missed it or ignored it, so I'll try again: Imagine that the two guys, 1393 exp and 1243 exp attack a target that has 1243 exp. The person with 1243 exp hits him harder than the 1393 exp guy, because: bigger number * scalar > smaller number * same scalar. The same thing applies if they were both hitting a guy with 1393 exp, the only thing that changes is the scalar!

 

It takes approximately 10gcds or 15s to overcome that 410 hp in a 1v1. I don't know about you, but my duels last longer than 15s, and so do WZs. But this isn't about duels, nobody really cares about duels.

 

It takes 10 gcds of spamming TT in the example I gave. Typically people aren't spamming a single attack, and either run out of force, energy, rage, etc in that timeframe. So yes, you are correct, duels and WZs last longer than 15s, but that doesn't mean my point is incorrect. The same basic principle applies, just more slowly. I used the TT example for simplicity.

 

But what matters is in a team setting over a long duration like a WZ. When you have people healing you, that 410 hp is less useful than the mitigation.

 

Take two completely equal teams (comp, skill, luck, lag, whatever) except one has 1393 exp, while the other has 1243 exp because they swapped some armorings. The 1393 exp team will win every time.

 

Repeating to yourself that the 410 hp is less useful than the mitigation doesn't make it true. I showed you the numbers regarding effective health. Yes mitigation is important, but so is your overall health pool. Is ~1.27% extra damage reduction worth more than 2% bonus hp? Take a health pool of 20k hp:

 

1393 exp:

20k / (1 - .2017) = 25053.24 effective health

 

1243 exp:

20.41k / (1 - .189) = 25166.46 effective health

 

If a competent team focuses you, you will die, and usually in a very short period of time. A larger effective health pool means that just maybe they'll have to spend an extra hit to take you down.. giving your team more time to focus their targets down.

 

As for your statement about pvp teams and expertise: bull. None of the top teams on my server run with max expertise. Mine included.

 

I've made my case as clear as it can be. You either don't get it, or are a quality troll.

[Smashbrother]

I barely even mentioned the crit, and didn't need to include it in the rudimentary calculations to show that a blend of PvE and PvP gear will deal more damage overall. I tried to do this before and you either missed it or ignored it, so I'll try again: Imagine that the two guys, 1393 exp and 1243 exp attack a target that has 1243 exp. The person with 1243 exp hits him harder than the 1393 exp guy, because: bigger number * scalar > smaller number * same scalar. The same thing applies if they were both hitting a guy with 1393 exp, the only thing that changes is the scalar!

 

And yet you're completely ignoring the target hitting you back. That's why having max expertise matters. The math I did earlier already shows that the 1393 exp guy does more damage to the 1243 guy than the 1243 guy to the 1393. This is why I don't suggest lowering your expertise to get main stats, because when you run into teams that run full expertise, you're gonna lose (all other things being equal).

 

It takes 10 gcds of spamming TT in the example I gave. Typically people aren't spamming a single attack, and either run out of force, energy, rage, etc in that timeframe. So yes, you are correct, duels and WZs last longer than 15s, but that doesn't mean my point is incorrect. The same basic principle applies, just more slowly. I used the TT example for simplicity.

 

I just used TT because it has no variable damage. But it could be any damage. Essentially 11 gcds worth of damage. But it's moot seeing as how duels don't really matter.

 

Repeating to yourself that the 410 hp is less useful than the mitigation doesn't make it true. I showed you the numbers regarding effective health. Yes mitigation is important, but so is your overall health pool. Is ~1.27% extra damage reduction worth more than 2% bonus hp? Take a health pool of 20k hp:

 

1393 exp:

20k / (1 - .2017) = 25053.24 effective health

 

1243 exp:

20.41k / (1 - .189) = 25166.46 effective health

 

If a competent team focuses you, you will die, and usually in a very short period of time. A larger effective health pool means that just maybe they'll have to spend an extra hit to take you down.. giving your team more time to focus their targets down.

 

As for your statement about pvp teams and expertise: bull. None of the top teams on my server run with max expertise. Mine included.

 

I've made my case as clear as it can be. You either don't get it, or are a quality troll.

 

You'd be 100% correct if you never got heals, guards, taunts, peels, cc, or any kind of support that extends your life, and the extra health would be more useful. Sorry, I don't play with bads. I regularly take 300k or more damage over the course of a WZ. The mitigation makes more of a difference than the little extra amount of hps.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Akeba]

And yet you're completely ignoring the target hitting you back. That's why having max expertise matters. The math I did earlier already shows that the 1393 exp guy does more damage to the 1243 guy than the 1243 guy to the 1393. This is why I don't suggest lowering your expertise to get main stats, because when you run into teams that run full expertise, you're gonna lose (all other things being equal).

 

...

 

You'd be 100% correct if you never got heals, guards, taunts, peels, cc, or any kind of support that extends your life, and the extra health would be more useful. Sorry, I don't play with bads. I regularly take 300k or more damage over the course of a WZ. The mitigation makes more of a difference than the little extra amount of hps.

 

And once again you fail reading comprehension. I didn't ignore the target hitting you back, in fact I calculated that that guy that is hitting you back has to hit you 11 times (using TT, more if using lower damaged attacks, or taking into account guard/taunt/cc/etc as you wanted to mention) to negate the difference in health. I also showed that the 410 additional health results in more effective health compared to the addtional damage reduction. More effective health means more gcds are needed to kill you. Introducing things like CC/taunt/guard doesn't change this, if anything it makes the case for more effective health stronger!

 

I run into teams that wear full expertise all the time.. its easier to equip the PvP gear that you are told is best for PvP than to calculate breakpoints and softcaps for each stat. They always get rolled.

 

I'll repeat myself: Repeating to yourself that expertise is better doesn't make it true.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Akeba

[L-RANDLE]

I'll repeat myself: Repeating to yourself that expertise is better doesn't make it true.

 

:-)

 

Now that we got over that hurdle, lets talk about role. Yeochins rolls his Mara less than 1200EXP (I''m assuming around 1180), and gets more damage output, but he is a Mara. His role dictates he should choose damage above all else. Since the diminishing return soft caps are at different points for each of the EXP stats, is that something to consider when its role specific? I say yes... I know its an extreme thought, but if DPS are willing to drop south of 1200 for higher output, healers/tanks should be following suit because their diminishing starts sooner than DPS..

 

Thoughts?

[Maanji]

So I will put my Ms. Cleo hat on and predict, 'Don't be surprised if they buff the formula again." Can I get a trademark for SWTOR Psychic Network?

If I owned it, I'd give it to you. Keep posting.

[Akeba]

:-)

 

Now that we got over that hurdle, lets talk about role. Yeochins rolls his Mara less than 1200EXP (I''m assuming around 1180), and gets more damage output, but he is a Mara. His role dictates he should choose damage above all else. Since the diminishing return soft caps are at different points for each of the EXP stats, is that something to consider when its role specific? I say yes... I know its an extreme thought, but if DPS are willing to drop south of 1200 for higher output, healers/tanks should be following suit because their diminishing starts sooner than DPS..

 

Thoughts?

 

I also play a Mara.. and I've calculated the breakpoint to be somewhere between 1000 and 1100 expertise for optimum DPS. I haven't crunched the numbers for tanks, but you'd be looking to maximize your effective health.. so instead of calculating expertise based on damage output, you'd be focusing on the damage reduction side of things.

 

Similarly for healers, you'd need to base your calculations on the healing buff you receive from expertise. I have a feeling that the expertise softcaps for these roles will look like:

 

DPS < Tank < Heals

 

But don't quote me on that.. crunch the numbers!

[L-RANDLE]

I also play a Mara.. and I've calculated the breakpoint to be somewhere between 1000 and 1100 expertise for optimum DPS. I haven't crunched the numbers for tanks, but you'd be looking to maximize your effective health.. so instead of calculating expertise based on damage output, you'd be focusing on the damage reduction side of things.

 

Similarly for healers, you'd need to base your calculations on the healing buff you receive from expertise. I have a feeling that the expertise softcaps for these roles will look like:

 

DPS < Tank < Heals

 

But don't quote me on that.. crunch the numbers!

 

I already did.

[Smashbrother]

And once again you fail reading comprehension. I didn't ignore the target hitting you back, in fact I calculated that that guy that is hitting you back has to hit you 11 times (using TT, more if using lower damaged attacks, or taking into account guard/taunt/cc/etc as you wanted to mention) to negate the difference in health. I also showed that the 410 additional health results in more effective health compared to the addtional damage reduction. More effective health means more gcds are needed to kill you. Introducing things like CC/taunt/guard doesn't change this, if anything it makes the case for more effective health stronger!

 

I run into teams that wear full expertise all the time.. its easier to equip the PvP gear that you are told is best for PvP than to calculate breakpoints and softcaps for each stat. They always get rolled.

 

I'll repeat myself: Repeating to yourself that expertise is better doesn't make it true.

 

All those things enable someone to live longer. When you live longer, the mitigation > 410 hp. A 1393 person already does more damage to the 1243 than vice versa, so not only are you doing less damage comparatively, you're taking more damage. If you can live longer than 11 gcds--which is easily doable if your team doesn't suck--than the expertise's mitigation wins out over the hp.

 

I believe the diff in EHP was like 113 or so from your calculations. I take 300k dam regularly in a WZ. 1.27% of that is nearly 3800. The extra bit of mitigation is better than the 410 hp over the course of a wz.

 

How about you show some math on the difference in damage between a max exp mara, and your mara with 1000 expertise?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Akeba]

All those things enable someone to live longer. When you live longer, the mitigation > 410 hp. A 1393 person already does more damage to the 1243 than vice versa, so not only are you doing less damage comparatively, you're taking more damage.

 

I believe the diff in EHP was like 166 or so from your calculations. I take 300k dam regularly in a WZ. 1.27% of that is nearly 4k. 4k > 166. The extra bit of mitigation is better than the 410 hp over the course of a wz.

 

The EHP value already takes damage reduction into account. The 166 simply states that it is more valuable to have 410 hp & -150 exp than not for your survivability. Multiplying damage taken by the change in damage reduction can't be easily compared to the difference in EHP. A rough way to do it is to keep track of how many times you are healed to full and how many times you died in that WZ. Multiply that number by 166 and see how it compares.

 

How about you show some math on the difference in damage between a max exp mara, and your mara with 1000 expertise?

 

Okay..

 

Since I'm at work I'll use my primary damage numbers from AskMrRobot, fully buffed, stimmed, and datacron'd.

 

w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8

1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8

 

HP = 20203.5

EHP = 20203.5 / (1 - .1721) = 24403.3

 

w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

HP = 19450.6

EHP = 19450.6 / (1 - .2019) = 24371.1

 

This does not take into account crit chance differences (PvE/PvP hybrid has 0.87% more crit than pure PvP from main stat difference). The PvE/PvP hybrid has both more pure damage (22.3 primary, and 0.87% more crit, when multiplied in tooltip damage this can make quite a large difference) and more EHP (32.2) than the pure PvP. Should it be this way? Probably not, but since the release of WH and EWH, expertise has not been tuned and thus PvE/PvP hybrid is stronger.

 

For healing and tanking, the softcap for expertise is likely different.. so your mileage may vary.

[L-RANDLE]

The EHP value already takes damage reduction into account. The 166 simply states that it is more valuable to have 410 hp & -150 exp than not for your survivability. Multiplying damage taken by the change in damage reduction can't be easily compared to the difference in EHP. A rough way to do it is to keep track of how many times you are healed to full and how many times you died in that WZ. Multiply that number by 166 and see how it compares.

 

 

 

Okay..

 

Since I'm at work I'll use my primary damage numbers from AskMrRobot, fully buffed, stimmed, and datacron'd.

 

w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8

1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8

 

HP = 20203.5

EHP = 20203.5 / (1 - .1721) = 24403.3

 

w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

HP = 19450.6

EHP = 19450.6 / (1 - .2019) = 24371.1

 

This does not take into account crit chance differences (PvE/PvP hybrid has 0.87% more crit than pure PvP from main stat difference). The PvE/PvP hybrid has both more pure damage (22.3 primary, and 0.87% more crit, when multiplied in tooltip damage this can make quite a large difference) and more EHP (32.2) than the pure PvP. Should it be this way? Probably not, but since the release of WH and EWH, expertise has not been tuned and thus PvE/PvP hybrid is stronger.

 

For healing and tanking, the softcap for expertise is likely different.. so your mileage may vary.

 

Remember when Bobby Boucher was throwing the flea flicker and Farmer Fran was squeezing his pierced ******s?

 

[Smashbrother]

The EHP value already takes damage reduction into account. The 166 simply states that it is more valuable to have 410 hp & -150 exp than not for your survivability. Multiplying damage taken by the change in damage reduction can't be easily compared to the difference in EHP. A rough way to do it is to keep track of how many times you are healed to full and how many times you died in that WZ. Multiply that number by 166 and see how it compares.

 

It was actually 113, not 166. I thought you would've corrected me yourself seeing as how they were your numbers, but I guess not.

 

People are rarely if ever at full hp in combat. I made this point extremely clear in my earlier posts. It is the reason why mitigation matters more than higher hp. As a healer, I stop healing someone when they reach 70-90% hp, and swap to someone else with lower health. Healing someone to full is completely unnecessary when someone else is in danger of dying.

 

 

 

 

 

Okay..

 

Since I'm at work I'll use my primary damage numbers from AskMrRobot, fully buffed, stimmed, and datacron'd.

 

w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8

1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8

 

HP = 20203.5

EHP = 20203.5 / (1 - .1721) = 24403.3

 

w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

HP = 19450.6

EHP = 19450.6 / (1 - .2019) = 24371.1

 

This does not take into account crit chance differences (PvE/PvP hybrid has 0.87% more crit than pure PvP from main stat difference). The PvE/PvP hybrid has both more pure damage (22.3 primary, and 0.87% more crit, when multiplied in tooltip damage this can make quite a large difference) and more EHP (32.2) than the pure PvP. Should it be this way? Probably not, but since the release of WH and EWH, expertise has not been tuned and thus PvE/PvP hybrid is stronger.

 

For healing and tanking, the softcap for expertise is likely different.. so your mileage may vary.

 

And now calculate them hitting each other, taking into account the crit. I'll be generous and let you use 1% crit = 1% damage.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Akeba]

It was actually 113, not 166. I thought you would've corrected me yourself seeing as how they were your numbers, but I guess not.

 

People are rarely if ever at full hp in combat. I made this point extremely clear in my earlier posts. It is the reason why mitigation matters more than higher hp. As a healer, I stop healing someone when they reach 70-90% hp, and swap to someone else with lower health. Healing someone to full is completely unnecessary when someone else is in danger of dying.

 

And now calculate them hitting each other, taking into account the crit. I'll be generous and let you use 1% crit = 1% damage.

 

So you get the number wrong, and then blame me for not correcting it? Someone has some issues. I didn't bother looking if you got it wrong because it doesn't really matter. EHP is all that matters, and if I have higher EHP, then I take more damage to kill, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Again, repeating yourself won't make it true.

 

Looking at them with crit:

 

Crit chance in PvE = 29.54%

Crit chance in PvP = 29.54% - 0.87% = 28.67%

Surge = 79.90%

 

w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8

1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8

1318.8 * ( (1 - .2954 ) + 1.799 * .2954 ) = 1630.07

 

w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

1296.5 * ( ( 1 - .2867) + 1.799 * .2867) = 1593.49

 

Now hitting each other:

 

w/ 1064 exp

1630.07 * (1 - .2019) = 1300.96

 

w/ 1396 exp

1593.49 * (1 - .1721) = 1319.25

 

A difference of 18.29 damage. Now take into account that I have 752.9 more HP than you. It would take you 42 gcd's of primary attack. This number gets smaller with attack multipliers, but is still significant.

 

Now lets look at what happens if you both attack the same target.. another person wearing full expertise gear, cause its so awesome:

 

w/ 1064 exp

1630.07 * (1 - .2019) = 1300.96

 

w/ 1396 exp

1593.49 * (1 - .2019) = 1271.76

 

A difference of 29.2 damage, which gets bigger with attack multipliers.

 

How about if you both attack someone wearing 1064 exp:

 

w/ 1064 exp

1630.07 * (1 - .1721) = 1349.53

 

w/ 1396 exp

1593.49 * (1 - .1721) = 1319.25

 

A difference of 30.28 damage, which gets bigger with attack multipliers.

 

So again, 1064 expertise HITS ANY TARGET HARDER than someone with 1393 expertise. I understand what you are trying to say, that you deal more damage to a lower expertise geared target than they deal to you. Yes thats true. However, the lower expertise geared target with PvE/PvP hybrid gear has more EHP than you, enough to more than negate the difference in damage. Not only do I hit harder, but I live longer too.

[Smashbrother]

So you get the number wrong, and then blame me for not correcting it? Someone has some issues. I didn't bother looking if you got it wrong because it doesn't really matter. EHP is all that matters, and if I have higher EHP, then I take more damage to kill, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Again, repeating yourself won't make it true.

 

Simply not true. Going to use some generic easy numbers for easy maths.

 

Person 1 has absolutely 0 mitigation but 100k hp. His EHP is 100k.

 

Person 2 has 50% mitigation but 49k hp. His EHP is 98k.

 

Which guy would you rather heal? I'd pick the 2nd guy because healer resources are not infinite and it would be much easier to keep Person 2 alive even though his EHP is less.

 

Looking at them with crit:

 

Crit chance in PvE = 29.54%

Crit chance in PvP = 29.54% - 0.87% = 28.67%

Surge = 79.90%

 

w/ 1064 exp: Dmg Boost = 20.79%, DR = 17.21%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1091.8

1091.8 * 1.2079 = 1318.8

1318.8 * ( (1 - .2954 ) + 1.799 * .2954 ) = 1630.07

 

w/ 1396 exp (full elite WH + exp crystals): Dmg Boost = 25.30%, DR = 20.19%

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

1296.5 * ( ( 1 - .2867) + 1.799 * .2867) = 1593.49

 

Now hitting each other:

 

w/ 1064 exp

1630.07 * (1 - .2019) = 1300.96

 

w/ 1396 exp

1593.49 * (1 - .1721) = 1319.25

 

A difference of 18.29 damage. Now take into account that I have 752.9 more HP than you. It would take you 42 gcd's of primary attack. This number gets smaller with attack multipliers, but is still significant.

 

20203/1319.25 = 15.31, or 16s for 1393 exp to kill 1064 exp guy

 

19450/1301 = 14.95, or 15s to for 1064 guy to kill 1393 exp guy.

 

Woot you just spent almost 10 million to barely kill another guy.

 

Now in WZs there's these things called healers. Let's say your healers aren't bads and manage to throw 10k worth of heals onto both of you.

 

30203/1319.25 = 22.89 or 23s

 

29450/1301 = 22.63 or 23s

 

Oh ****. Now they stalemate.

 

But this isn't about duels.

 

Now lets look at what happens if you both attack the same target.. another person wearing full expertise gear, cause its so awesome:

 

w/ 1064 exp

1630.07 * (1 - .2019) = 1300.96

 

w/ 1396 exp

1593.49 * (1 - .2019) = 1271.76

 

A difference of 29.2 damage, which gets bigger with attack multipliers.

 

How about if you both attack someone wearing 1064 exp:

 

w/ 1064 exp

1630.07 * (1 - .1721) = 1349.53

 

w/ 1396 exp

1593.49 * (1 - .1721) = 1319.25

 

A difference of 30.28 damage, which gets bigger with attack multipliers.

 

So again, 1064 expertise HITS ANY TARGET HARDER than someone with 1393 expertise. I understand what you are trying to say, that you deal more damage to a lower expertise geared target than they deal to you. Yes thats true. However, the lower expertise geared target with PvE/PvP hybrid gear has more EHP than you, enough to more than negate the difference in damage. Not only do I hit harder, but I live longer too.

 

This is true for 0 expertise vs. 1393 expertise too. So why you wearing any expertise at all.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Smashbrother

[cashogy]

this is a silly argument. if bads want to pvp with low expertise, let them

[Akeba]

Simply not true. Going to use some generic easy numbers for easy maths.

 

Person 1 has absolutely 0 mitigation but 100k hp. His EHP is 100k.

 

Person 2 has 50% mitigation but 49k hp. His EHP is 98k.

 

Which guy would you rather heal? I'd pick the 2nd guy because healer resources are not infinite and it would be much easier to keep Person 2 alive even though his EHP is less.

 

Mitigation is important on damage soaking classes.. DPS need to focus on maximizing DPS. If you can increase your DPS while keeping your EHP in the same neighborhood, or even increasing it.. its a no brainer. 3% mitigation or 3.7% more health.. as a DPS main, I know what I'm going to choose.

 

20203/1319.25 = 15.31, or 16s for 1393 exp to kill 1064 exp guy

 

19450/1301 = 14.95, or 15s to for 1064 guy to kill 1393 exp guy.

 

Woot you just spent almost 10 million to barely kill another guy.

 

And if you multiply those numbers by ability damage multipliers, the time difference amplifies. If you are trying to maximize damage, why the hell does the cost matter?

 

Now in WZs there's these things called healers. Let's say your healers aren't bads and manage to throw 10k worth of heals onto both of you.

 

30203/1319.25 = 22.89 or 23s

 

29450/1301 = 22.63 or 23s

 

Oh ****. Now they stalemate.

 

But this isn't about duels.

 

Again, time difference is more drastic with ability damage multipliers, and PvE/PvP hybrid still holds the edge.

 

This is true for 0 expertise vs. 1393 expertise too. So why you wearing any expertise at all.

 

And again you prove yourself ignorant. Expertise has diminishing returns and thus a softcap. Small amounts of expertise increase your PvP damage bonus drastically. As you gain more and more expertise, this gain decreases incrementally. The key to maximizing damage is finding the point at which the damage added from an amount of additional expertise is equivalent to the damage added from extra mainstat/power/etc, while keeping endurance in mind.

 

Just to prove my point:

 

w/ 120 exp (2x pvp relics are BiS in pvp since you can't use activateds) Dmg Boost = 2.94%, Dmg Red = 2.86% :

 

Primary Avg Dmg = 1166.9

1166.9 * 1.0294 = 1201.21

 

w/ 1396 exp

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

The pure PvE gear hits more weakly even before damage reduction is taken into account. They also have less a significantly smaller EHP (21370 / (1 - .0286) = 21999 compared to 24371).

 

If you are focusing on DPS, the expertise softcap appears to be in the 1000-1100 range, depending on where you want your power, crit, surge, and accuracy. For a tank or a healer, this range will be different, but I can assure you that it will be below 1396 expertise. Power crystals >>> expertise crystals.

[Jherad]

Everything I've heard from the devs suggests that expertise is entirely comparative - that is the number is essentially arbitrary, except in comparison with your target's expertise number. You want to have more than them.

 

Per James Ohlen via Torwars:

 

Expertise: It’s all Relative

 

One of the key concepts is that, during any PvP encounter, the game is comparing one player’s Expertise to his or her opponents’ Expertise. The player with the higher Expertise gets a bonus to the damage they do, and a reduction to the damage they receive.

 

Damage: The Formula

 

This is the damage formula for calculating damage: Damage * (1 + Attacker_Exp) / (1 + Target_Exp).

 

And the 'damage reduction' formula is really just a function of the above damage formula.

 

Saying you get X damage boost from Y expertise is misleading and wrong (and the character sheet tooltip is largely to blame for this) - you can only know based on your target's expertise.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Jherad

[Malkavier]

I'm just mostly curious. I recently swapped in 2 Campaign armorings for the set bonus (Operative heals), although I haven't had a chance to see how it affects my overall healing yet.

 

That set bonus is worth the expertise loss, just make up for it by leaving your wrist/belt with expertise instead.

[Akeba]

Saying you get X damage boost from Y expertise is misleading and wrong (and the character sheet tooltip is largely to blame for this) - you can only know based on your target's expertise.

 

The formula you quoted is exactly what we are applying.. not sure what you are getting at here - multiplication and division are commutative (it doesn't matter in what order they are applied - we'll still get the right answer).. so we can look at the damage number before applying your opponents expertise. I've shown that if you have the right stat ratios, you can hit a higher expertise target for more relative damage (dmg per opponent hp).

[bglodt]

So PvE players are doing it wrong when I see one with 1900+ main stat?

 

Main stats "power" or damage bonus has no DR, but it is less than that provided by power. However main stats crit portion does have DR. That said, main stat is still typically better than power overall, as the DR on the crit portion isn't too bad until you have extremely high levels of it

[L-RANDLE]

multiplication and division are commutative (it doesn't matter in what order they are applied - we'll still get the right answer)

 

^^^^Damn dude, get out of my head.....

 

 

One simple mathematical property that many fail on...

[Ycoga]

^ ... I don't buy it. Edited December 20, 2012 by Ycoga

[L-RANDLE]

^ ... I don't buy it.

 

The healer argument or the damage one?

[Aluvi]

Keep stacking primary stat over exp kids. I enjoy smashing those who do for 7-8k.

[L-RANDLE]

They only people you are smashing for 7-8k are lowbies wearing LVL48 greens with 0EXP... You are more than welcome to come try though...

[Aluvi]

They only people you are smashing for 7-8k are lowbies wearing LVL48 greens with 0EXP... You are more than welcome to come try though...

 

Really? So the ss link in my sig with 1 mill damage and a 7.3 k smash must be fake. I even hovered over my damage to show biggest hit.