Current returns from expertise and primary stats

[Ycoga]

I don't see how I'd be more effective with 900 expertise over 1300. .

Have a look at sorc healers with 25000 HP that can use WZ medpacks to good effect, and that stack End and Power. They probably also have minimal alacrity, and rely on bubblestun for heals.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Ycoga

[islander]

Oh, I know alarcity is bascially crap past 5-6%

 

It's why I just load surge and crit. In fact, I probably have a little too much surge right now, need to switch about 50-70 of it out for something else. There's very subtle twinking I can do on my mods/endurance pieces, but I mean subtle. Certainly nothing game breaking, we're talking maybe a 3% advantage to be had overall if everything was perfectly twinked.

Edited December 13, 2012 by islander

[L-RANDLE]

1290.

 

 

I'd be looking at basically 2000 and 1290, or 2114(?) and 1140.

This is using expertise crystals.

 

Ok. here it is... Say your Dark Heal is tooltip rating is @ 1500 in 100% WH.

 

WH: 1500*13.25%(EXP)= 1698.75

Swapped: 1516*12.01(1140EXP)= 1698.7

 

Here is a 7 piece trade:

Swapped: 1535*10.065(940EXP)=1698.4

 

Here is a 9 piece trade:

Swapped: 1546*9.78%(840EXP)=1697.19

 

 

 

As you can see, these are why I say 900EXP for healers. So you might as well carry WP, get higher crit chance/more output...

 

This is the type on analysis missing for a ton of the theorycraft websites that was overlooked when saying "EXP is king"... Nope..... it depends on quite a few factors... EXP only gives a slight advantage in output compared to its PvE brethren, but the loss of crit chance is not to be taken lightly...

[islander]

Now see, this goes along with the results I played around with.

 

You are basically making the argument that the modest crit chace you gain from additional willpower is worth the loss of overall surviviability (penalty to incoming damage).

 

I respectfully just don't agree. I'd want to see a reasonable healing output increase to reconcile being easier to kill.

Not to mention it hurts dps output, which is admittedly a minor factor and a virtual non-factor in ranked scenarios.

 

As I PMd you, I like and appreciate analysis like this because if there's one thing you learn as you get older - there's always more you don't know. There hasn't been good theorycrafting for this game in ages.

Edited December 13, 2012 by islander

[L-RANDLE]

Now see, this goes along with the results I played around with.

 

You are basically making the argument that the modest crit chace you gain from additional willpower is worth the loss of overall surviviability (penalty to incoming damage).

 

I respectfully just don't agree. I'd want to see a reasonable healing output increase to reconcile being easier to kill.

Not to mention it hurts dps output, which is admittedly a minor factor and a virtual non-factor in ranked scenarios.

 

As I PMd you, I like and appreciate analysis like this because if there's one thing you learn as you get older - there's always more you don't know. There hasn't been good theorycrafting for this game in ages.

 

No prob... I mean the survivability thing is the only hurdle in this matter, but as I said I see no difference in having RAW HP when you get to 900+ EXP. I think your survivability is sole based on your class, and in your case (and my main) Sorc are squishy, no matter what EXP number they carry....

 

To each his own though...

[Kelrizzo]

There hasn't been good theorycrafting for this game in ages.

 

QFE

 

Good to see some numbers and educated connjecturing happening.

[yoomazir]

oops wrong topic. Edited December 13, 2012 by yoomazir

[Wainamoinen]

I don't think it's possible to hit diminishing returns on main stat.

 

Yes and no.

 

Main stat gives you both bonus damage and crit chance.

 

The bonus damage is straight line, like that from power.

 

The crit chance is on a (minimally curved, near-flat) diminishing returns curve.

 

So you can pretty much regard main stat as free from diminishing returns. Only it isn't if you're being strictly correct because of the crit chance element.

 

I am deliberately not reading the rest of this thread because I don't want my head to explode at people's statements.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Wainamoinen

[Smashbrother]

Try it and see by youself My damage is a lot better with 1550 WP and 100 more power (calculating the crit % too) than my old 1650 WP. I do more damage overall in all the WZs

 

There is no DR on main stat's dam portion, only the crit portion.

[DarthOvertone]

As far as Charts go, I know of this chart: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=282

 

Actually, the MMO-Mechanics site has some really good stat crunching info in general, even if some of it is a bit dated.

[Smashbrother]

Ok. here it is... Say your Dark Heal is tooltip rating is @ 1500 in 100% WH.

 

WH: 1500*13.25%(EXP)= 1698.75

Swapped: 1516*12.01(1140EXP)= 1698.7

 

Here is a 7 piece trade:

Swapped: 1535*10.065(940EXP)=1698.4

 

Here is a 9 piece trade:

Swapped: 1546*9.78%(840EXP)=1697.19

 

 

 

As you can see, these are why I say 900EXP for healers. So you might as well carry WP, get higher crit chance/more output...

 

This is the type on analysis missing for a ton of the theorycraft websites that was overlooked when saying "EXP is king"... Nope..... it depends on quite a few factors... EXP only gives a slight advantage in output compared to its PvE brethren, but the loss of crit chance is not to be taken lightly...

 

You're forgetting the trauma debuff, and that expertise's healing buff is meant to eat into that -30%.

 

I'll use your numbers.

 

Full WH = 1248.75

1 piece = 1243.12

9 piece = 1233.4

 

Plus there's also the -dam reduction you get from having expertise. Expertise is king. In ranked where you're taking lots of damage but not dying because of proper guard/taunts/peels, the DR expertise gives you gets even better and better.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Smashbrother

[cashogy]

there hasnt been any theory crafting because the hardcore niche of players have moved on long ago. you can thank bioware for that.

[L-RANDLE]

You're forgetting the trauma debuff.

 

Not really... its a set debuff on any of those calcs, but static, and cannot be affected by the player. If you applied the debuff across the board the number would still be so close it don't even matter.

 

It was not a "real" rating. Just an example of how you are not really increasing output by carrying more EXP past certain numbers.

[Larzi]

Vanguard tank, 25k hps, 1370 expertise, only one piece of EWH at the moment.

 

Not sure what you would count as my primary stat, Endurance or Aim. I obviously went with Endurance cus.. im a tank and screw damage, ill get my dmg from AoEs ( can hit 300k dmg medal, average around 150k-250k)

 

Cant wait to have my full EWH and be well over 1400 expertise!

 

Lets keep this rumor going that expertise is bad, so when the slight upgrades from full EWH will add up against people using PvE mods and the expertise gap can be 300ish

 

 

 

[DarthOvertone]

As for the whole dying thing. IMO mitigation in PVP is soley based on DFCD not on EXP mtigation. I see no difference in having the raw HP. Its a point of contention, but I always say.. EXP mitigation is highly questionable as to when it will actually be effective, so at the end of the day, take the higher output/burst....

 

I found this comment to be really interesting in relation to the backdrop of fast TTK in SWTOR PvP. Survivability seems to be the one issue that isn't clear cut. I've always been of the opinion that it was better to stack Expertise for the survivability factor (Damage Reduction + Healing Bonus), especially when playing melee. However, in the light of the lightning fast TTK that continues to exist, I'm beginning to rethink this.

 

The Expertise on my Mains is pretty near to cap. Yet my mains get lit up nearly as fast as my lesser geared Alts unless they blow their cooldowns. Nearly as fast is quantified as a difference of tenths of a second to a second or two (heh). I'm basing this purely on my own observations by the way.

 

I spent an entire month playing my Sniper and Scrapper in full Recruit gear only. At the same time, I was playing my Shadow and Mara in Full WH. Of course, the damage output on the Full Recruit toons was considerably lower than on the Full WHs. However, honestly, the differences in survivability seemed quite slim and hinged more on cooldowns than on Expertise or any damage reduction my toons were/weren't receiving.

 

So if you consider WZs to truly be a DPS race (and the current TTK favors this), then the PvE-modding may definitely be the way to go, mainly because I don't trust EXP mitigation to be working the way we think it should or does. You may have finally convinced me to really give the PvE modding a shot.

Edited December 13, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[L-RANDLE]

Vanguard tank, 25k hps, 1370 expertise, only one piece of EWH at the moment.

 

Not sure what you would count as my primary stat, Endurance or Aim. I obviously went with Endurance cus.. im a tank and screw damage, ill get my dmg from AoEs ( can hit 300k dmg medal, average around 150k-250k)

 

Cant wait to have my full EWH and be well over 1400 expertise!

 

Lets keep this rumor going that expertise is bad, so when the slight upgrades from full EWH will add up against people using PvE mods and the expertise gap can be 300ish

 

 

 

 

No one said its bad,

 

but what is the point if it aint good either?

 

Trying not to flame you but, I hit your numbers @750EXP with my guardian tank, and I have no problem getting my 10k Paladin protection metal or 75k heals metal (yes as a tank). So are you a baddie or am I leet?

 

 

The world may never know...

[Larzi]

forgive me your leetness, you are ever so leet. I can leeting believe how incredibly leet you are. leet.

 

i am sorry to have stuck a cord with you Leet randall and caused to to personally attack me.

 

However my post was mearly drawing attention to the fact that if people continue to "optimize" their gear by using PvE mods, then the gap between full EWH and "optimized" will continue to grow.

 

I am just curious what the benefit of having optimized gear if you have 400 expertise more.

 

 

Again Leet randaal, you are so *********** leet its hard to even see right now, seriosuly, sooo leet.

[L-RANDLE]

forgive me your leetness, you are ever so leet. I can leeting believe how incredibly leet you are. leet.

 

i am sorry to have stuck a cord with you Leet randall and caused to to personally attack me.

 

However my post was mearly drawing attention to the fact that if people continue to "optimize" their gear by using PvE mods, then the gap between full EWH and "optimized" will continue to grow.

 

I am just curious what the benefit of having optimized gear if you have 400 expertise more.

 

 

Again Leet randaal, you are so *********** leet its hard to even see right now, seriosuly, sooo leet.

 

I knew it..... Should have just kep my mouth shut:rak_03:..... Your sarcasm detector needs a tuneup bro, but the real question is: WOULD I BE GOD 1400 EXP? LOL

 

Not GOD. The point of my comment was to show you that even if I stacked EXP to 1400, I would have pretty much the same numbers posted in a WZ at 750EXP... No better; no worse.. So if I am not better at 1400EXP, I ask again, what is the point of stacking EXP? I mean, unless maths are never accurate....

 

People think I am asinine for rolling with low EXP numbers, but at the end, they can't say a word, as I am at the top of the leaderboard. I smile and tell them to have a nice day...

 

You are also missing the point of the thread... here is the cliff review version.

1. There are not any "real" gains going from WH to EWH on most pieces. Moving up to 140HP and maybe 20points in bonus whatever is moot.

2. No one said use PvE mods. To the contrary, PvP Mods and ENH are required to be BiS.

3. Depending on tier trades and current EXP level, PvE armorings can be more advantageous.

 

 

 

but keep on stacking EXP, bro if it makes you happy, but tanks should be stacking END after 1000 EXP....

[Smashbrother]

I found this comment to be really interesting in relation to the backdrop of fast TTK in SWTOR PvP. Survivability seems to be the one issue that isn't clear cut. I've always been of the opinion that it was better to stack Expertise for the survivability factor (Damage Reduction + Healing Bonus), especially when playing melee. However, in the light of the lightning fast TTK that continues to exist, I'm beginning to rethink this.

 

The Expertise on my Mains is pretty near to cap. Yet my mains get lit up nearly as fast as my lesser geared Alts unless they blow their cooldowns. Nearly as fast is quantified as a difference of tenths of a second to a second or two (heh). I'm basing this purely on my own observations by the way.

 

I spent an entire month playing my Sniper and Scrapper in full Recruit gear only. At the same time, I was playing my Shadow and Mara in Full WH. Of course, the damage output on the Full Recruit toons was considerably lower than on the Full WHs. However, honestly, the differences in survivability seemed quite slim and hinged more on cooldowns than on Expertise or any damage reduction my toons were/weren't receiving.

 

So if you consider WZs to truly be a DPS race (and the current TTK favors this), then the PvE-modding may definitely be the way to go, mainly because I don't trust EXP mitigation to be working the way we think it should or does. You may have finally convinced me to really give the PvE modding a shot.

 

Playing a healer, I definitely notice the difference between healing someone in recruit and someone in full WH. It's much harder to keep a recruit geared guy up.

[islander]

I guess my point overall is this:

 

What Randle said has 'some' value. If (using me as an example) I am to consider only healing benefits generically speaking, then yes - I am better off dialing back my expertise towards 900 (provided it's done properly!).

 

However, when you factor in survivability, and in my unique case occasionally damage output, the area is not so clear. When I solo pug as a hybrid with madness, I am most likely going to hit something like 150-200k damage AND 150-250k healing. In this scenario, expertise is better. Of course I'm not doing a rated in this spec.

 

From 1390 down to 1290, I get essentially a -1% damage output modifier, -.6% incoming damage(or +.6%, to be accurate), and .35% (estimated) to healing. I include the damage outgoing modifier because remember, there's a 1390 expertise guy who's going to be hitting you as well.

In exchange, I get about a 2.3% increase in power/output. These numbers are estimates from memory, and I'll be glad to write the numbers down tonight and edit this post accordingly. I know I'm pretty close, though.

 

So is it worth it? Math says yes, but it's pretty close. It comes down to personal preference. You sacrifice something to get something else.

 

Certianly much cheaper to stick with just the WH gear

 

I would only suggest that if you replace armoring to taste , don't do it half way. Do mainstat 27's or don't do it at all.

Edited December 13, 2012 by islander

[Smashbrother]

I knew it..... Should have just kep my mouth shut:rak_03:..... Your sarcasm detector needs a tuneup bro, but the real question is: WOULD I BE GOD 1400 EXP? LOL

 

Not GOD. The point of my comment was to show you that even if I stacked EXP to 1400, I would have pretty much the same numbers posted in a WZ at 750EXP... No better; no worse.. So if I am not better at 1400EXP, I ask again, what is the point of stacking EXP? I mean, unless maths are never accurate....

 

People think I am asinine for rolling with low EXP numbers, but at the end, they can't say a word, as I am at the top of the leaderboard. I smile and tell them to have a nice day...

 

You are also missing the point of the thread... here is the cliff review version.

1. There are not any "real" gains going from WH to EWH on most pieces. Moving up to 140HP and maybe 20points in bonus whatever is moot.

2. No one said use PvE mods. To the contrary, PvP Mods and ENH are required to be BiS.

3. Depending on tier trades and current EXP level, PvE armorings can be more advantageous.

 

 

 

but keep on stacking EXP, bro if it makes you happy, but tanks should be stacking END after 1000 EXP....

 

I already showed that you heal more with full WH, using your numbers. Add in the dam reduction you get from expertise, and exp is best.

[Smashbrother]

I guess my point overall is this:

 

What Randle said has 'some' value. If (using me as an example) I am to consider only healing benefits generically speaking, then yes - I am better off dialing back my expertise towards 900 (provided it's done properly!).

 

However, when you factor in survivability, and in my unique case occasionally damage output, the area is not so clear. When I solo pug as a hybrid with madness, I am most likely going to hit something like 150-200k damage AND 150-250k healing. In this scenario, expertise is better. Of course I'm not doing a rated in this spec.

 

From 1390 down to 1290, I get essentially a -1% damage output modifier, -.6% incoming damage(or +.6%, to be accurate), and .35% (estimated) to healing. I include the damage outgoing modifier because remember, there's a 1390 expertise guy who's going to be hitting you as well.

In exchange, I get about a 2.3% increase in power/output. These numbers are estimates from memory, and I'll be glad to write the numbers down tonight and edit this post accordingly. I know I'm pretty close, though.

 

So is it worth it? Math says yes, but it's pretty close. It comes down to personal preference. You sacrifice something to get something else.

 

Certianly much cheaper to stick with just the WH gear

 

I would only suggest that if you replace armoring to taste , don't do it half way. Do mainstat 27's or don't do it at all.

 

Randle's math is fails. He ****ed it up because he ignored trauma debuff.

[islander]

I already showed that you heal more with full WH, using your numbers. Add in the dam reduction you get from expertise, and exp is best.

 

I'm glad you made the point you did about trauma. I may be setting up my equation incorrectly based on using the healing beneift to pull from trauma, instead of adding to the benefit of the skill output itself.

 

Is that what you are suggesting happens?

 

I'm actually going to delete my previous post until I figure this one out for myself

(edit: no point deleting it now, haha).

Edited December 13, 2012 by islander

[L-RANDLE]

Playing a healer, I definitely notice the difference between healing someone in recruit and someone in full WH. It's much harder to keep a recruit geared guy up.

 

Its not directly due to mitigation though... Its because their HP is low compared to the damage present in WZs...

 

 

The difference in mitigation between the two is less than 4%... Say someone has a smash rated @ 6K.

 

WH eats 4840.8

Recruit eats 5076

 

200HP difference, which is minor

 

but that is a 1/3 of a recruits HP pool, versus 1/4 or less of a WH HP pool.

 

This is "why its harder to keep a recruit up". Their HP pool is too small...

[L-RANDLE]

Randle's math is fails. He ****ed it up because he ignored trauma debuff.

 

How so?

 

 

Apply the trauma debuff to all my numbers... nothing changes... All are less than a percentage point within each other...