AMKSED Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Sorry, but tanks are balanced right now. I don't understand why people want un-killable juggernauts. In PvP, a Tank/Healer combo can already hold a node vs 4+ people for a long time. And as long as that tank had a healer in Huttball he would never die. Sorry but it's balanced the way it is. No need to be having tanks with 30K base health along with 2x their defenses they already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindorin Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I have a hard time understanding. Why do I need 2 sets of gear? All I do is tank and raid and I do fine with 1 set. Why do I need a dps set? That what a dps is for. I don't care how much damage I'm putting out. I'm there to control the fight and keep the attention on me. Was thinking the exact same thing as I read the OP. Tanks Tank. They don't DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 widdly widdly stuff Widdly Widdly Widdly Waaaaaaaaaaah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrimentus Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Does anyone consider the fact that most people don't like to tank anyways? This is not just a problem in this game, it's in every game. It goes DPS > Healing > Tank. Tanking is perceived as being not as fun as DPSing or healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimG Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 There are a lot of tanks who seem to get along just fine. It just takes more effort to be a good healer and a good tank than it does to be good DPS. Most folks do not want to make that effort. I am not demeaning anyone who DPS's for fun here, but no matter what you say, DPS is a role where you can kick back, spam your rotation and enjoy the show. Healers spend a lot of time watching health bars. Tanks spend all of their time trying to maintain control. They take effort. Gear has nothing to do for a perceived tank shortage. If you want to chalk it up to anything, it is an abundance of people with a lazy playstyle. This pretty much sums it up.....has nothing to do with gear. Although, it does take effort to be a "good" DPS....still, less effort than a good tank or good healer though. A good DPS player will pay attention to what's going on and try to make the job of the tank and healer easier. A bad DPS player just fires away without a second thought and expects the tank and healer to constantly bale them out and carry them through the encounter. Unfortunately, there are a lot more bad DPS players than good ones....and, if they can't even play a DPS role decently, I sure don't want them running a tank or healer for my group, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMKSED Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Does anyone consider the fact that most people don't like to tank anyways? This is not just a problem in this game, it's in every game. It goes DPS > Healing > Tank. Tanking is perceived as being not as fun as DPSing or healing. Not many people have played the hybrid-tank Guardian/Juggernauts in Huttball yet. Easily the funnest class to play in that Warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastastio Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think it has a lot to do with responsibility, in that the tank is almost always looked at to lead a group, especially in a pug. Who wants to have to babysit when you can pwn faces? Personally i have always played tank/healer/support roles, as i find i have more fun when i know the group isn't going to wipe because the tank/healer/support is horrible, and i find tanking to be calming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccha Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 There are a lot of tanks who seem to get along just fine. It just takes more effort to be a good healer and a good tank than it does to be good DPS. Most folks do not want to make that effort. I am not demeaning anyone who DPS's for fun here, but no matter what you say, DPS is a role where you can kick back, spam your rotation and enjoy the show. Healers spend a lot of time watching health bars. Tanks spend all of their time trying to maintain control. They take effort. Gear has nothing to do for a perceived tank shortage. If you want to chalk it up to anything, it is an abundance of people with a lazy playstyle. Absolutely this. I have been playing MMO's since UO, and this problem persists in every game where it's relevant. Many games have addressed this with gear, rewards, and multiple specs, and it never resolves the issue. The bottom line is most people play for fun, and tanking and healing is not fun for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Not many people have played the hybrid-tank Guardian/Juggernauts in Huttball yet. Easily the funnest class to play in that Warzone. Playing a tank in a WZ is completely different than playing a tank in PvE with a bunch of people who don't want to listen and think you're their servant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoth Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) I agree with you, but I would like one more skill for taunts. There is nothing as frustrating when both of em are on cooldown and you hear someone getting hit. Sorry but you will have to wait 18 seconds... If both your taunts are on CD and the DPS is still pulling aggro, you need to bonk the DPS'er on the head and show him where his aggro drop skill is.... It's not that hard to keep aggro, just need to have the right opening moves... For example on Guardian, it's 1) Saber Toss 2) Force Leap 3) Guardian Slash 4) Single Taunt That should lock in the aggro and keep them from pulling off of you.... Of course if your trying to tank in recruit gear and the dps is in full blown Dread Guard Gear then ya your going to have a hard time keeping aggro.... Also Tanks need to remember the guard rule, always put your guard on healers during trash pulls and then put your guard on the highest DPS'er during boss fights. The reason is during trash pulls there are multiple targets and healers will pull some of those mobs with their healing aggro.... During Boss fights you want the guard on dps'er because it reduces the amount of threat they generate so less chance of them pulling off of you. The real issue why there are not enough tanks is because the majority of people just want to DPS period... It's been that way in MMO's for many years... Edited December 7, 2012 by Monoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGauntman Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Its not that really, I was thinking about this and it can come down to the end result. If the tank messes up its over. If the healer messes up its over. If a dps messes up you can recover. I know its not always the case, but its the fact that if you want to be in the position. And on the fun factor its hard to beat damage. I play them all, and its hands down the one I would do first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoth Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Tanks are leaders, not many people want to lead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Mu Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 If you replace gear with fun, you might have a more accurate statement. For most people, tanking just isn't fun. You have to put up with clumsy, dimwitted dps who think they're hot crap when really they're just crap. Healers that act like they have some kind of god complex or simply make odd demands. And after you've finished dealing with the annoying team mates, every second mob has a knock back or stun. Seriously, does trash need a knock back? It's a lot of work, frustration and tolerance for very little reward. Making tanking fun certainly doesn't mean making it easy. You'd have to question each tank but for me, I like the challenges of tanking every mob in every pull. The only thing I don't like is when my ability to perform my role is encumbered by excessive knock backs and stuns. A reduction to the number of KBs and stuns, a diminishing return or resistance bonuses baked into key talents would go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokkh Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 If both your taunts are on CD and the DPS is still pulling aggro, you need to bonk the DPS'er on the head and show him where his aggro drop skill is.... It's not that hard to keep aggro, just need to have the right opening moves... For example on Guardian, it's 1) Saber Toss 2) Force Leap 3) Guardian Slash 4) Single Taunt That should lock in the aggro and keep them from pulling off of you.... Of course if your trying to tank in recruit gear and the dps is in full blown Dread Guard Gear then ya your going to have a hard time keeping aggro.... Also Tanks need to remember the guard rule, always put your guard on healers during trash pulls and then put your guard on the highest DPS'er during boss fights. The reason is during trash pulls there are multiple targets and healers will pull some of those mobs with their healing aggro.... During Boss fights you want the guard on dps'er because it reduces the amount of threat they generate so less chance of them pulling off of you. The real issue why there are not enough tanks is because the majority of people just want to DPS period... It's been that way in MMO's for many years... As a person who plays tanks, healers, and dpsers regularly... your post should be stickied. Simple, concise, and correct on all points with respect to the mechanics of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorkTrooper Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Being a tank you need 2 totally different sets of gear if you want to do any dps at all Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but doing dps is not the point of a tank. Pulling threat, piling aggression, and building survivability (damage mitigation/interrupts, etc) are the point of the tank role. You are wanting to build a high-endurance dps rather than a real tank. Still two different things, IMO. It's just that most MMO players don't really, truly want to tank. They want to do the most damage without a lot of group-visible individual responsibility. Nothing wrong with that...until queue time. I for one am glad this game has healing and tanking roles, as I enjoy both. Not interested in total damage battles all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowWolf_Kell Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Absolutely this. I have been playing MMO's since UO, and this problem persists in every game where it's relevant. Many games have addressed this with gear, rewards, and multiple specs, and it never resolves the issue. The bottom line is most people play for fun, and tanking and healing is not fun for everyone. As a former raid tank and MT from both EQ and WoW, I tend to agree. As for tanks and glory... who the heck needs to see big numbers? Picking up a boss on an otherwise guaranteed wipe and tanking it down to a 1st kill (a worldwide first at that) trumps any big arbitrary # you can come up with. I've never played an MMO where the tanks didn't get all the glory for content progression in a progression guild. If you're looking for glory in random FP or WZ pugs... you're doing it wrong. SWTOR doesn't have an Uqua from EQ to drive borderline tanks to quit or be benched, so I really don't see an issue. I wouldn't say itemization for tanks is broken at all. Do the HK-51 quest and gear him out. That's all the DPS you need. If you've gotten yourself decked out correctly, you'll blow through dailies (he can solo 50 elites on his own) without any downtime whatsoever. Best of all, you won't have to waste bank or inventory space for extra otherwise useless gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms_Sunlight Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 If both your taunts are on CD and the DPS is still pulling aggro, you need to bonk the DPS'er on the head and show him where his aggro drop skill is.... It's not that hard to keep aggro, just need to have the right opening moves... For example on Guardian, it's 1) Saber Toss 2) Force Leap 3) Guardian Slash 4) Single Taunt That should lock in the aggro and keep them from pulling off of you.... Of course if your trying to tank in recruit gear and the dps is in full blown Dread Guard Gear then ya your going to have a hard time keeping aggro.... Also Tanks need to remember the guard rule, always put your guard on healers during trash pulls and then put your guard on the highest DPS'er during boss fights. The reason is during trash pulls there are multiple targets and healers will pull some of those mobs with their healing aggro.... During Boss fights you want the guard on dps'er because it reduces the amount of threat they generate so less chance of them pulling off of you. The real issue why there are not enough tanks is because the majority of people just want to DPS period... It's been that way in MMO's for many years... Two things: Firstly, lots of people spec their Guardian / Juggernaut tanks in hybrid spec. Similar survivability / mitigation, increased damage and hence increased threat. So that Guardian Slash becomes Overhead Slash, and would then be followed by a Blade Storm to proc Blade Barrier and apply burning DOTs. Personally I wouldn't even bother using my taunt until and unless it became necessary. Secondly, your understanding of threat mechanics are simply wrong. Healers pull threat because, if neither the tank or DPS has threat on a mob through damaging it, the healer is the only one with any threat whatsoever on them because their healing threat is distributed between all mobs in play. That's why good tanks often "tag" mobs with one hit or with AOE even if they then concentrate on one, and part of the reason why DPS need to burn down weak and normal mobs first in trash pulls, so the threat is on the DPS not the healer. Guard gives a 25% threat reduction. If a healer has 100 threat on a mob, guard will reduce that to 75, but that's still more than 0. I put guard on whichever DPS is pulling threat from me. If no DPS are doing so, I put it on whoever will benefit most from the 5% damage reduction. This is often, but not always, the healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Its not a gear issue, its a design issue, shields dont work on force or tech attacks and armour mitigation is not working as it should be but fundamentally the reason we dont see so many tanks is that they are not so much fun or as enjoyable (for the most part for the majority of people) I get that some people have a blast and are awesome tanks but in the groupfinder I can sit for ages waiting for a pop as a DPS and yet the minute I tick the tank box on my assassin because Im tired of waiting then its instapop, and I dont want to play as a tank. Its all about fun, and they didnt dial it into their tank "vision" Main reason I continued to keep my gear heavily customized with a tank/dps mix is because I really don't like tanking, but it's the fastest way to get in a group. If I'm able to tank things one minute, but I can then DPS the next minute without even bothering to switch skill trees or gear, then I think I'm in pretty good shape. I really don't like tanking, but I do like the fact I can tank if necessary, and that cuts down on wait times. In order to pull off something like I'm doing, it gets very expensive and you have to pay very close attention to the numbers. My gear is probably at least double the expense of full black hole at this point, cause I've had to mix and match so many things and often feels like I'm balancing on a knife's edge, but it works. Edited December 8, 2012 by GarfieldJL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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