NO Addons please. There is another solution!

[-hori-]

what is wrong with healbot? (clique and grid user myself).

 

 

also, in defense of recount. DPS do not matter, damage done throughout the encounter is important.

Edited December 21, 2011 by -hori-

[thomasdr]

because once they are everyone else expects you to use them. I have played in guilds where you can't join in anything if you dont' have certain addons...and as you said some of us don't want to use them

 

Yeah, because guilds can check what addons you are using?

If you can perform just as well without addons there's noone who's going to give you a hard time. They only do so if you screw up a lot, and in that case addons could help you.

 

Ignorant people tend to think competitive raiders used addons to tell them what to do but that's far from true. Anyone can learn to move when something is incomming, sure bossmods warned you about that but that wasn't why bossmods were used.

They were used to optimize player performance. When bossmechanics became harder you needed bosstimers to optimize you cooldown, ability and resource usage. Else you'd just be gambling, and while gambling can be fun, it sure as hell can be frustrating as well.

 

In a raid environment the key to success is information and the swtor UI doesn't give that. You can barely see your buffs, debuffs and you have no timers. Manually dispelling targets by clicking the target first and using your spell is a pain in the *** ( hence why decursive was one of the first wow addons ) for anyone and doesn't lead to enjoyable gameplay.

 

On top of that many of the harder encounters in wow would have been borderline impossible without addons. On the top of my head I'm thinking of Anubarak HC25, Lich King HC25, Chromaggus, Sindragosa HC25, Felmyst, etc

Sure you could say that they designed those encounters around having those addons, but some of those fights had extraordinary mechanics that would never have been implemented.

 

 

TLDR: Addons only tell bad people how to play, proper players know what to do and use addons for additional information so they can perform better

[Englisheart]

The truth is without addons a large percentage of to days MMO players wont be able to handle much more than a tank and spank fight.

 

Ppl say they ruin raiding but I would suggest that without addons the encounter designer would be very limited in what he could do, if they made the fights to complex then only a small percentage of players could actually down bosses.

 

This would lead to a lot of people getting frustrated, thus stopping raiding so making the game boring once you reach max level in turn leading to a falling player base.

 

If they just made simple tank and spank fights at end game then more people would be able to down bosses but this would become boring after a couple of raids, again leading to people stopping raiding so making the game boring once you reach max level in turn leading to a falling player base.

 

Addons allow designers to make more complex fights that people can actually kill, making it a fun experiance for everyone.

 

For those who dont want to use addons thats fine dont use them and if some jerk kicks you for low dps in a flashpoint then isnt it a good thing you dont have to play with him again

[Jeweledleah]

what is wrong with healbot? (clique and grid user myself).

 

 

also, in defense of recount. DPS do not matter, damage done throughout the encounter is important.

 

 

back in a day, healbot literally used to chose spells for you, to the point where all you had to do was to use a single button for everything. a little nodding bird could successfully heal with old healbot (and of course when it broke, its users often were lost confused and couldn't figure out what to do). nowadays, its closer to grid/clique in its functionality.

 

I disagree on recount. damage done, while better measuring stick is still insufficient. and very few people look at general activity, all of actions performed etc. SWTOR seems to emphasize being flexible, which means, you cannot just tunnel vision on a single task. did the baddie die? does it look like everyone was participating? then what's the issue then?

[Zorke]

You need damage meters to be able to min/max your character and learn optimal builds and rotations.

 

If any of you are at endgame right now, you know that some of the bosses enrage timers are quite difficult to beat if you aren't a full team of Inquisitors.

 

Also, the procs/debuffs on yourself and targets needs to be larger or something. There's no point in even having it when you can't see it.

[Bekkrah]

Vanity addons without scripts would be acceptable, nothing more.

[AshramDarkstar]

The problem with add-ons is that they change how the game evolves. I've played WoW, I didn't have a problem with add-ons at start. Hell, I even used them. But eventually, they became so widely used and made so many raid encounters easier, developers started to design encounters with the use of these add-ons in mind.

In reality, it became sort of obligatory to use add-ons if you wanted to compete in any way.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

 

Not to mention the whole gearscore debacle/drama that wow has seen.

 

Quoted for reinforcement and general awesomeness.

[thomasdr]

I disagree on recount. damage done, while better measuring stick is still insufficient. and very few people look at general activity, all of actions performed etc. SWTOR seems to emphasize being flexible, which means, you cannot just tunnel vision on a single task. did the baddie die? does it look like everyone was participating? then what's the issue then?

 

There's enough people who can use this addon wisely, it's not because some people don't know what to do with the information that it's better to not give it.

 

But at some point, you're going to be stuck on a fight ( hopefully ) and with the UI that swtor gives us now there's no absolutely no way of gathering information of what went wrong. People might be doing stuff wrong without even noticing it, why is your tank dieing, why are we hitting the enrage timer, why do we have random people dieing, why is the raid taking so much damage, why was last try better than this try? Sure you could be guessing and be lucky a few times later but that's not an efficient way of progressing.

 

Topend raiding is as much about investing time and playing good as it has to do with analyzing data, theorycraft is a big part of an MMO for some people and damagemeters/logs is a big part of that.

[Lucardes]

/sign

[aapanic]

I say open the floodgates and let addons in. The people that make addons do it to make the game better. Bioware can't possibly fit everything in the game that everyone wants in it. If they allow the community to help, bam, everyone gets all the features they want from somewhere.

 

You don't like addons, don't use them.

 

You are resistant to addons because you want to do less work to stay competitive. Don't be lazy.

[Aryzyra]

But at some point, you're going to be stuck on a fight ( hopefully ) and with the UI that swtor gives us now there's no absolutely no way of gathering information of what went wrong. People might be doing stuff wrong without even noticing it, why is your tank dieing, why are we hitting the enrage timer, why do we have random people dieing, why is the raid taking so much damage, why was last try better than this try? Sure you could be guessing and be lucky a few times later but that's not an efficient way of progressing.

 

Topend raiding is as much about investing time and playing good as it has to do with analyzing data, theorycraft is a big part of an MMO for some people and damagemeters/logs is a big part of that.

 

This will be a problem for every raid group encountering any sort of challenge. Not just high end raiding. High end raiders are likely to be a bit better in the quality control department - ruling out a lot of potential poor play issues immediately.

 

If a pug can't figure out why they're dying on the first boss, that pug will break up.

[JediIorith]

Damage/healing meters help to assist elitism and pointless bragging over tiny amounts(hurr I have top dps by .1%! i r teh best! u all sux)

 

The game is perfectly doable as it is, add-ons are a needless crutch.

[TheAlcpwn]

megusta.jpg

[Sunshinegasm]

Damage/healing meters help to assist elitism and pointless bragging over tiny amounts(hurr I have top dps by .1%! i r teh best! u all sux)

 

The game is perfectly doable as it is, add-ons are a needless crutch.

 

You must have had some terrible experiences, and for that I'm sorry. But you can't stop people from doing that regardless of whether add-ons exist or not, they're still going to find a way to shove their elitist attitude in your face.

 

Personally, I used damage and healing meters to better my skill in the games I've played. If for some reason my parses weren't stacking up with others of my class/spec/gear level (which also having that comparison to make is ALWAYS nice) then clearly there was something I'm doing wrong that needs to be improved on. To me, its frustrating not to know how well I'm playing, if I'm maximizing the output of my abilities, and utilizing cooldowns and buffs the way I should. I shouldn't let those I'm playing with suffer either because I can't be sure what I'm doing wrong without properly gauging my mistakes, and meters in particular help me do that. In short, I don't expect people to hold my hand. I'd like to know myself, so I can improve myself (or ask someone who is clearly more experienced with my class to share their opinion).

 

In my general opinion, add-ons are something that I would like to see. Having looked at how the raid frames setups are, I am already frowning because the player frames are on the far left of the screen. Yikes. I would definitely like to see if nothing else, ui addons implemented for customization.

[Nefthon]

Addons are simply the users way of adding to the game. Either Bioware does it on their own, or they release the code so people can have fun devolping programs (which actually is totally the same as bioware tweaking it themselves), and based on popularity, some addons will be used, some will not. Dont see the problem lots of people are making out of this tbh.

[Zhazam]

Why exactly do you not want addons available? If you don't like them, don't use them.

 

Addons that just only change the way you experience the game, fine. I ahve no problem with those. The problem with addons like threatmeters is that they make the game much MUCH easier. The problem with DPS meters is that they simply change the entire game. People start caring too much about 'winning' the DPS numbers and don't care at all about the actual gameplay anymore.

 

Also, it turns classforums into a whinefest when one class finds out they do 5% less DPS overall than another class.

[Zhazam]

You must have had some terrible experiences, and for that I'm sorry.

 

My experience there is WoW and how it changed the community.

 

People are competitive so even in a group they want to compete. In some cases that's good, but there are simply too many people who are competative in such a way that for them it's more important than anything else in that group, that it turns the group into a "me versus the rest" ordeal where all they care about it being on top of the DPS meters.

[truBot]

For me addons spoil the experience and the fairness in gameplay.

 

At most, you could have a very limited set of API possibilities for UI flexibility, but always assuring that an addon would not give you such an edge everyone had to use it be at the same level. Or else, the only choice is BW to then be hostage in their future design options. Some additional meters, inventory mgmt improvements, etc maybe, with care...

 

Games must have their difficulty level, or else it only exponentiates bragging, exploiting, number crushing.

 

This is not Excel with graphics, it should require an amount of skills and logic. This game is done by BW, who has it's perspective on how to move this forward, we as a community will surely assist on this path, in the last instance by stop playing (they'll be sensitive to that!).

 

If a game fails to require skill and logic, then it becomes the worst you see in 'other games', were any kid can click 3 times and see numbers and just compare if is number 4920 is more than 4918 of the next guy... that is not gaming, sorry.

 

You may call it optimize... but it's the same as having an optimization on Modern Warfare (or your favorite FPS) that would auto-target and auto-fire, that'd be awesome... I'd optimize my game to circumvent the fact that I suck at FPSs, and then I could brag on how good I am killing everyone.

 

This is just my 2cents.

[Neuromann]

Don't allow add ons...but you need to at least make the raid bars more customizable. Especially for healers.

 

I agree with no add ons though =)

[Vialator]

Why exactly do you not want addons available? If you don't like them, don't use them.

 

exactly my thoughts- but you will always get the ones who cry and scream no addons- they don't want to get booted from raids or such for knowingly under-performing all the time.

 

I say YES to addons- if you don't like em, don't use em!

[truBot]

exactly my thoughts- but you will always get the ones who cry and scream no addons- they don't want to get booted from raids or such for knowingly under-performing all the time.

 

I say YES to addons- if you don't like em, don't use em!

 

Starting to see the pattern here?

 

Not crying and screaming... I'm talking, reasoning with logic, discussing, giving an opinion.

 

I won't cry and scream if they allow them, would prefer the time and effort of creating an API for mooders to improve the game client, but well, as addon supporters are much more of the screaming type, and BW, as others before may capitulate over this and transform this into a one-click calculator.

 

As getting booted for under-performing... I also prefer to play in a cooperative, sain, fun environment, so would quit anyway if that was the spirit. I have a day job, thanks.

Edited December 23, 2011 by truBot

[ZeroNeutral]

The problem with add-ons is that they change how the game evolves. I've played WoW, I didn't have a problem with add-ons at start. Hell, I even used them. But eventually, they became so widely used and made so many raid encounters easier, developers started to design encounters with the use of these add-ons in mind.

In reality, it became sort of obligatory to use add-ons if you wanted to compete in any way.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

 

Not to mention the whole gearscore debacle/drama that wow has seen.

 

This is completely false. In fact, add-ons had provided Blizzard with ideas and insight into how to improve their own product. Evidence of this fact can be found in the various improvements that have been made to the UI which resemble, if not replicate, the function of user-made add-ons.

 

Bring on the add-ons! Let the creativity begin!

 

P.S. At no time was there ever an add-on that was required in order to raid in WoW, unless you consider Ventrilo an add-on? Or do you hate that too since it influences game-play by allowing people to hear voices instead of typing as Gob intended?

 

I would also like to touch on the argument that, "add-ons turn the game into a one click win button." I have used add-ons extensively in WoW, and none of them turned my game into a one click win button. One helped me get all my mail from the mailbox, one gave me a nice little hud with health and mana, and one gave me the ability to click a player's name in raid frame to heal them (instead of targeting them and pressing a button.)

 

What's the problem again?

Edited December 23, 2011 by ZeroNeutral

[ZeroNeutral]

As far as I can tell, the argument against add-ons resembles, to me:

 

"I dislike things that can make my life easier, which is ironic since I'm using a piece of technology right now. Form and function have no place in SWTOR! Which is ironic because most of the game takes place in a highly technological setting. Also, I love doing things the hard way, and so should you."

[Greatheart]

Well firstly I don't rly like dps addons cause then u have some moron whining about dps output and some little twit who thinks he is king because he has found a way of fooling the addon.

 

That said there are good addons, and I miss not having a threatmeter to see if I am holding threat and need to taunt.

 

On the reverse side I also remember addons causing crashes and lag.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Greatheart

[truBot]

This is completely false. In fact, add-ons had provided Blizzard with ideas and insight into how to improve their own product. Evidence of this fact can be found in the various improvements that have been made to the UI which resemble, if not replicate, the function of user-made add-ons.

 

Bring on the add-ons! Let the creativity begin!

 

P.S. At no time was there ever an add-on that was required in order to raid in WoW, unless you consider Ventrilo an add-on? Or do you hate that too since it influences game-play by allowing people to hear voices instead of typing as Gob intended?

 

Again no black-and-white... Blizzard took the dangerous path of not changing and letting the community evolve, and only parsecs after it integrated obvious improvement in the UI. If Bioware listens to the community it doesn't need an addon to show it's implemented. Blizzard ignored feedback, therefore addons were the only way...

 

Vent is an voice application for any game... if BW created voice chats I'd used them, sure.

But it's a good example... if I can't use vent one day, should I be banned?

 

Fortunately, there'll be room for everyone.