NO Addons please. There is another solution!

[zImperium]

The thing about addons and mods isn't about using or not using them, its that they become part of the culture. If you introduce addons and mods, it will initially be kind of tame, because there won't be many. However, eventually, groups will start requiring them: EPGP, DKP, Meters, Bar Customers, Heal Bot, etc. If you don't have X mod, you're bad.

 

Addons and Mods caused a scourge on the game because it promoted lazy gameplay. There's addons to automatically choose the next skill in your rotation. There's addons to notify you when this big orb is heading in your direction. There's addons to notify you when you're stepping in stuff you shouldn't.

 

The problem with Pandora's Box is not the fact that there's a lot of good uses for them, its the fact that introducing Addons and Mods opens up the floodgates to every type of mod. From the spam bots, to the easy healing/dps mods, to the mods that help bots figure out what to do and prevent GMs from noticing that they are bots.

 

The problem is the people that are yelling "for" the mods/addons to be enabled aren't looking at the big picture. The problem with the people yelling "against" the mods/addons don't realize that they are arguing with "because I don't want them" doesn't provide a subjective point of view.

[Anttonen]

I really wish, that they add some alternative to recount in this game. My trooper is almost fully rakata geared and i want to know, how much dps i can do, compared to other classes.

 

Dps race is one of the most fun parts of any mmo game for me.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Anttonen

[FobManX]

I like the idea of an in game boss damage report. It'd be nifty if it also showed your damage/DPS per attempt so you can see what you did wrong or differently on each attempt. Being a Sentinel I've been messing around with different specs trying to see what's most optimal but without some kind of damage meters it's tough.

[nostdurell]

i'm brand new to mmo's. never paid attention to them until swtor came out. so i don't get the lingo whatsoever. i do know the only thing i added on was the force power windows. one row on the left, two at the bottom, one at the right. that's all i know about add-ons. so far, it's been great. except for outleveled pvp scenario's. then they camp out next to you. do it again. that's my only complaint. some part are hard, okay, get some help. and if it's not fun, please stop playing, or blaming bioware. it ruins it for everyone. you need help, find someone to help you finish the end content. or google it. see what predecessors did. get ideas. this game is brand new to all, so it's time to stop blaming things for shortcomings. have fun, or quit. tired of seeing complaints. the forums are a place to ask how others did stuff so you get an idea when stuck. Edited January 28, 2012 by nostdurell

[nostdurell]

i'm sorry. that was directed towards someone with no avatar that is always complaining about the game. no highlights. just complaints. can't tell which non-avatar it is, but it's one of the non-avatars. there's a couple of them. these few have no avatar. probably to disguise and confuse the complaining. i'm sure some non-avatars are happy. but a select few aren't, and it's incessant non stop bickering about the game, and i got fed up with it. Edited January 27, 2012 by nostdurell

[Moffen]

I for one want a DPS meter or similar in game. Not to be able to judge other players but to use it as a tool to measure my own performance. And don't forget that jerks will be jerks, addons or no addons.

[flowqz]

dunno why this thread exists... addons will come sooner or later anyway

 

considering the topic: if there wont be any addons the game cant become that hard cause without its hard to analyse mistakes, optimise dps or setups or even get correct data for theorycrafting. if u dont want addons i can just tell u, that u are afraid of beeing to bad and other players may see it and may dont wanna play with u. that said... just search for players on your skilllevel and u may be happier.

 

without addons the game wont develope

[Rutrict]

Why exactly do you not want addons available? If you don't like them, don't use them.

 

This person shouldn't post. You think any high-end guild will be fine with you not using add-ons? The leader will use add-ons and expect you to also use them so that he doesn't have to babysit you and tell you that you aren't doing your job.

 

 

 

I agree, no add-ons please. It makes the game less of a game and more of a job.

[Vankris]

This person shouldn't post. You think any high-end guild will be fine with you not using add-ons? The leader will use add-ons and expect you to also use them so that he doesn't have to babysit you and tell you that you aren't doing your job.

 

 

 

I agree, no add-ons please. It makes the game less of a game and more of a job.

 

Are you seriously thinking about joining a high-end guild?

If you really want to join such guild, i suggere you have a much more open mind, because addon will be the least of what they would require of you

 

 

- Take vacation for the release of new content to be able to raid (top world guild raid from about noon to late in the night during progress)

- Accept to be on stand-by during raid time cause you can be called into the raid at any time

- Accept that anyone playing the same class as you but better can just take your spot, even if you are 2 years senior in the guild.

- Be ready to change completely you entire gear Mod/enhanc/etc... to optimize for 1 particular fight whatever the cost, credits are irrelevant.

 

So i ask again, you really want to join an high end raiding guild? i feel addons will be the least of your commitment.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Vankris

[Rutrict]

Are you seriously thinking about joining a high-end guild?

If you really want to join such guild, i suggere you have a much more open mind, because addon will be the least of what they would require of you

 

 

- Take vacation for the release of new content to be able to raid (top world guild raid from about noon to late in the night during progress)

- Accept to be on stand-by during raid time cause you can be called into the raid at any time

- Accept that anyone playing the same class as you but better can just take your spot, even if you are 2 years senior in the guild.

- Be readdy to change completely you entire Mod/enhanc/etc... to optimize for 1 particular whatever the cost, credit are irrelevant.

 

So i ask again, you really want to join an high end raiding guild? i feel addons will be the least of your commitment.

 

Seeing as how this post is about Add-Ons and their implementation into this game... I felt no need to divert from the topic and talk about other requirements. I am already IN an end-game raiding guild and have enough skill from the last 9 years of End-gaming I did in FFXI and WoW that I am an Officer in my guild.

 

If you'd like I can post screenshots of my Data logs showing the Raid bosses and Heroic World Boss kills I have. Nightmare mode and the likes.

 

 

Now let's stay on topic, enough about me.

[Vankris]

no need for screen, i take your word.

 

Here is my point of view.

 

I am by no mean in a Top world guild. My current guild in WoW (i play both) is currently ~200th world rank (25 man), working on heroic spine.

 

From my experience, actual raiding in game is only a part of understanding and overcoming the encounter. Many hours we have spent on WoL, discussing on our forum, as well as in the games on recount to lead to our heroic ragnaros first kill. This is why PVE in wow has such a depth and is currently the standard for every MMO. It's a mix of strategy, tactical decision and actual skill (and some times luck).

 

I wish to see the same level of depth and precision in SWToR in PVE, especially in nightmare mode. But combat log parsing and real-time analytics are necessary for that level of PVE.

 

 

 

Or we can have simple end game, not requiring much understanding, optimizing, anyone and everyone can do. But i feel the later will not mark the mind of players and will not elevate SWToR to the high of MMO PVE.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Vankris

[Robwinter]

/sign

[DarkenWulf]

Sorry but I couldn't disagree more.

 

I'm an old man, with poor eyesight, couldn't care less about a DPS meter although a combat parser of some description would be useful for the theory crafting, maybe logs I could then access out of game.

 

I would however give my right arm/leg/other for a threat meter and some kind of power aura ability where I can see when I've procced something without squinting.

 

Anni marauders have many things to keep track of, have a little consideration for the older and slower among you.

[Sujimichi]

Give us a dps meter for only on target dummies then. I REALLY want dps meters, but only because i want to know what rotation works best for me. What spec gives me the best damage output, etc.

 

PLEASE give us some way of finding out how we can do the most damage.

[WileCoyote]

It is disgusting how wow generation of players are killing mmo genre alltogether.

 

On crafting forum there are people that want craft missions gone and craft more like wow style?!? (Wow = bad craft, few games with player made items only have good craft)

 

On this forum you want wow interface. Hell why not (it has wow almost everything, why not change ui to wow and load the screen with nice color bars...or beter just go back to wow)

 

On class forums they want respec like in wow (no adv. classes or respeceble)

 

On general chat people talk like they are still in wow.

 

I could continue...

 

I was a tank in wow i needed alot of addons, endgame bosses wheren't doable without them tbh. I didn't like it but that was minor concern for me becouse i didn't like the game anyways. Played it to fill my playtime with something while waiting for beter game. I'm still waiting...

 

I've been playing mmos from the day they are out i think, played more than 20 diferent ones. This might come as a shock but WOW and all abominations that came after it are not as good as you think! (at least in my opinion and tens of thousands of players that tried a game before wow time.) Yup I know including this one.

 

Could be that i'm just old and don't understand new generation, everything is synthetic now anyway...

[Pherdnut]

It's not about not liking add-ons. It's about not liking YOU with add-ons. Power-tripping stat-obsessed destructively-risk-averse project managers are not something I'll tolerate in a workplace. Why would I want to deal with it when I'm trying to have fun?

 

Giving stupid people the ability to scan strangers for numbers they don't need/can't interpret properly anyway results in bad behavior and a priggish slide into "the serious" crowd all having doing, and expecting everybody else to have and do the same things.

 

Using/not using it doesn't solve problem for me. YOU using it is my problem.

 

DPS dummies are a great idea. So are after-action reports. But we don't need nerd-gatekeepers at every flashpoint.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Pherdnut

[Hxxr]

Yes - numbers are fun to some people, maybe not to you, but that's ok with me.

 

Not only is a chart at the end of a flashpoint insignificant as it only shows overall numbers - something no one really cares about - but dps meters also come in very handy when you evaluate your own spec. Right now for most classes there is no way to tell which one really is the best and while they're feeling close I'm someone who wants to know. Especially when in terms of fun there is no difference I'd like to chose the best spec.

 

Combat logs and meters are the basis of theorycraft and this is what kept WoW alive for such a long time. Right now we only have the starting raid tier and I'd suspect the upcoming ones increasy drastically in difficulty and when that happens you really want to be able to analyze your performance and that of your raid through better operations than your gut feeling.

 

On a side note - outside of my raid where people join to perform and clear content I never gave a **** about other peoples rankings in any meters as long as it isn't apperant that they are just lazy slackers who want to get carried through an instance. (LFR comes to mind here.)

Edited January 28, 2012 by Notannos
rude comments

[SunSic]

The problem with add-ons is that they change how the game evolves. I've played WoW, I didn't have a problem with add-ons at start. Hell, I even used them. But eventually, they became so widely used and made so many raid encounters easier, developers started to design encounters with the use of these add-ons in mind.

In reality, it became sort of obligatory to use add-ons if you wanted to compete in any way.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

 

Not to mention the whole gearscore debacle/drama that wow has seen.

 

10/10. couldn't agree more.

 

It's not about not liking add-ons. It's about not liking YOU with add-ons. Power-tripping stat-obsessed destructively-risk-averse project managers are not something I'll tolerate in a workplace. Why would I want to deal with it when I'm trying to have fun?

 

Giving stupid people the ability to scan strangers for numbers they don't need/can't interpret properly anyway results in bad behavior and a priggish slide into "the serious" crowd all having doing, and expecting everybody else to have and do the same things.

 

Using/not using it doesn't solve problem for me. YOU using it is my problem.

 

DPS dummies are a great idea. So are after-action reports. But we don't need nerd-gatekeepers at every flashpoint.

 

you, sir, are my hero! thank you for putting, so eloquently, my feelings! =D

Edited January 28, 2012 by SunSic

[Hxxr]

The correct term for male genitals is flagged as a swear word?

 

Now that's just sad.

 

 

Let's try this ... people who's behavior is phallic because of phallus meters will be like that with and without any justification through ingame numbers.

Actually damage meters could help with that as more often than not those exact people arn't as great of a player as they think.

 

On the other hand if you enjoy LFR-style gameplay goind afk midfight and still expect to get loot ... then I will be in your face as a raid leader and I will be right to do so.

[Silberfalke]

The problem with add-ons is that they change how the game evolves. I've played WoW, I didn't have a problem with add-ons at start. Hell, I even used them. But eventually, they became so widely used and made so many raid encounters easier, developers started to design encounters with the use of these add-ons in mind.

In reality, it became sort of obligatory to use add-ons if you wanted to compete in any way.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

Spot on.

[Saberolson]

Looks to me like we are getting customization. not addons, thank the maker.

 

Wow went from being a video game, to a series of on screen prompts. No need to watch the boss, a big warning will come up telling you what to do! That is ridiculous!

 

Im having so much fun not know what is coming in these fights and having to learn and adapt to the situation. Im loving being a tank and having to watch every single enemy and see if one turns away from me. I dont want to know when someone is gaining on my threat, its a rush when the **** hits the fan. and we scramble and end up succeeding.

 

As far as damage meters go, its pretty easy to tell when DPS isnt doing their job...**** doesnt die quick enough. Multiple times last night I had to tell DPS to step it up, I didnt single one guy out, making him feel bad, and ruining his night, I adressed them all, and you know what. They did. Everyone has room for improvment. Singling one guy out doesn nothing but create needless tension amongst friends.

 

And the ops, FP, and raids do not require huge numbers, so there is no reason you cant join a casual guild to find a group to run with. So saying we need them for pugs isnt good enough. All these tools to judge DPS, gearscore, heals, threat had a place, but they were abused so bad, and got out of hand. People doing massive AOE and using it as some barometer of how leet they were, GS causing people not to allow players into content they were more than geared enough, because some douchnozzle thinks you need to be 2 gear lvls above a raid so you can sleep through it!

 

Bioware has incorporated most of the addons I would want anyway. The only things I want added are some kind of a buff/proc bar I can move near my targets so I dont have to squint at the little symbols above my own bar, and added movable bars.

 

With all that said, I could live with personal damage meters, but would prefer a simple combat log. I worry that even personal combat meters will lead to the "spec this or you cant come" mentallity. A good player, can take any viable build and succeed with it.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Saberolson

[Aikagi]

I'm fine with not having addons. I just think threat meters would be particularly useful. It plays a massive part in bosses, and yet you can't see it. I mean DPS don't realise they're over aggroing until it's too late, and tanks don't realise they're losing aggro until it's too late. Can you go with out it? Yeah, you can, but it would make life easier.

 

DPS and heal meters... Meh, I don't think they're quite as necessary, it's only really a way of telling who's slacking off and even then it doesn't take into account different classes.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Aikagi

[Saberolson]

I'm fine with not having addons. I just think threat meters would be particularly useful. It plays a massive part in bosses, and yet you can't see it. I mean DPS don't realise they're over aggroing until it's too late, and tanks don't realise they're losing aggro until it's too late. Can you go with out it? Yeah, you can, but it would make life easier.

 

What happens then is people dont properly learn to play. They just stare at a meter till it reaches a point and then dump aggro. For anyone who has played without these things, you learn when to dump, and when to burst. Its part of the skill set a DPS player gains as he gets better. People are SOOO scared to wipe these days. Failure is a part of life, without it we learn nothing.

 

I understand it would make it easier, but it also takes a lot of the fun out of the game. I used to love the rush I got in vanilla wow as DPS in MC. .You had to learn to control your damage, and work with the tank, it was a blast, and when i screwed up, i got one shot. Very quickly I learned not to screw up!

Edited January 28, 2012 by Saberolson

[Aikagi]

I'm fine with not having addons. I just think threat meters would be particularly useful. It plays a massive part in bosses, and yet you can't see it. I mean DPS don't realise they're over aggroing until it's too late, and tanks don't realise they're losing aggro until it's too late. Can you go with out it? Yeah, you can, but it would make life easier.

 

What happens then is people dont properly learn to play. They just stare at a meter till it reaches a point and then dump aggro. For anyone who has played without these things, you learn when to dump, and when to burst. Its part of the skill set a DPS player gains as he gets better. People are SOOO scared to wipe these days. Failure is a part of life, without it we learn nothing.

 

I understand it would make it easier, but it also takes a lot of the fun out of the game. I used to love the rush I got in vanilla wow as DPS in MC. .You had to learn to control your damage, and work with the tank, it was a blast, and when i screwed up, i got one shot. Very quickly I learned not to screw up!

I think the issue is, a lot of people don't learn to play properly even without them!

 

I was an healer in Vanilla WoW, so I can't really comment much on how it was in that, bar the occasional over-aggro which would cause a wipe.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Aikagi

[Yawning]

I read a lot about people missing addons. "I need healbots, dpsmeters, threatmeter..." You can do just fine without these, it's just a different game, we just have to adapt. Healbot, for instance, turns a very interesting game into something pulled out of a 90's Nintendo!

As for the meters, I have a suggestion: an <End Flashpoint/Operation Report>, just like in the end of Warzones. Voilá, you can consult who's doing their jobs right. DPS, Healing, Protection, MVP vote also (why not?)... It's all there.

Please NO addons. Don't turn this very enjoyable game into a big load of numbers popping out of my screen...

 

The current interface is suboptimal in a lot of ways.

 

While it's entirely possible to "adapt" to not being able to tell which buff/debuff on a target is mine, it's tedious, annoying, frustrating and error prone.

 

It's also possible to heal with the current interface with "click, press button" (Or in my case "click, move mouse since abilities bound to mouse buttons don't fire if they're on a unit frame, press button") but it's tedious, annoying, frustrating and error prone.

 

Having a report pop up at the end of a flashpoint is mostly worthless. The information is most valuable and relevant immediately after things go wrong so that the reason for failure can be identified and corrected. Having an accurate record of what occurred provides this information while a general summary does not.

 

Regardless of if you like it or not, the game at it's core is all about numbers. Success is attained in the vast majority of contexts by making the numbers in red that appear over your head small, the numbers appearing over the mob you are fighting big, and or the numbers in green appearing over your group member's heads greater than or equal to the number that they're missing on a red bar. Fail at any of these things, and you and or your group fail. A non-negligible fraction of the community would like to be able to better visualize these numbers.

 

If I were to guess, I would say a non-negligible fraction of the community would find whatever UI customization they add to be inadequate to alter things to their exact liking. Given that developer resources are finite, I personally would suspect that allowing the community to add, extend, or alter features (within limitations set by the developers) would lead to a richer game experience.

 

It's not about not liking add-ons. It's about not liking YOU with add-ons. Power-tripping stat-obsessed destructively-risk-averse project managers are not something I'll tolerate in a workplace. Why would I want to deal with it when I'm trying to have fun?

 

Under-qualified under-performing employees are not something most people tolerate in a workplace. Why would I want to deal with it when I'm trying to have fun?

 

Wiping up to a > 50k repair bill in a HM BT pug because people consistently failed to meet the enrage timers is not fun. Yes, I should have left earlier, but it was at an odd hour and I wanted to get the daily done. Given tools to visualize what was going on, I could have made my decision to leave much sooner. (And before anyone says it, I was healing, and the tank was under geared to the point where any time taken off healing to DPS would have resulted in death.)

 

Wow went from being a video game, to a series of on screen prompts. No need to watch the boss, a big warning will come up telling you what to do! That is ridiculous!

 

Fun fact. Ops in this game have a big warning that comes up telling you what happens. "What's this? Gharj is about to Pounce in red letters across the middle of my screen? I guess I should move!"

 

As far as damage meters go, its pretty easy to tell when DPS isnt doing their job...**** doesnt die quick enough. Multiple times last night I had to tell DPS to step it up, I didnt single one guy out, making him feel bad, and ruining his night, I adressed them all, and you know what. They did. Everyone has room for improvment. Singling one guy out doesn nothing but create needless tension amongst friends.

 

Some background. Along with some friends we put together a few PUG ops during the week (Everything but HM SoA till we can move onto nightmare modes. Not spectacular compared to some people but I'm happy with where we are at.).

 

If someone isn't doing their job, it's their night vs seven other people's night that's going to end up being "ruined". Between those two options, I would much rather prefer to be able to identify the single person and address the issue at the root cause. If I'm not doing my job, I would rather have accurate tools that indicate how I'm failing so that I can avoid ruining 7 people's night.

 

For the raids we've put together so far, we've been mostly blessed with quality people (when we had to extend out of our combined friends lists), but these situations do arise and as for one, I feel the information would be a useful asset in assisting us clear and learn content.