NO Addons please. There is another solution!

[Jorammy]

Thread is moving too fast and no one reading posts - but will add my .02 regardless. As OP indicates There is another solution - I haven't seen one.

 

What I do know is:

 

1. We have gear score in this game already. Every item has an ilevel associated with it. And if you read any guides it will say for end level operations you need to be over an ilevel of 120 or you will hit enrage timer. I can inspect today and determine ilevel - it will go back to old days of inspection before raid or a tool / armory of some sort will be used to make that inspection easier.

 

2. We have tight enrage timers - it has been written many places by guilds downing operations that the bosses are either very over tuned or under tuned. Meters lets us understand what to fix - without meters you may spend 4 hours wiping at 30% and have no idea why. Good leaders understand players who are on interrupt duty or kite duty won't put out the raw numbers but are necessary and killing the boss ultimately ends up being somewhat math based - do you need to subtract a healer, do you move assignments so toon x is bursting down an add - who do you keep on boss. Meters let us avoid the frustration curve.

 

3. I love to heal, it is very satisfying, but UI customization that at least lets me see buffs / debuffs is kind of critical - did your dot expire, do you need to cure, is the player able to be shielded. That information easily viewed and accessible makes healing a joy rather then a keystroke to try and shield - nope didnt work - try and shield again later and waste a GCD. I can live without mouseover, and never used healbot (grid user) but playing a toon well means processing the information quickly and reacting to it.

[Mohax]

Well, i cant hold myself from contributing.

 

I support:

1. UI customization, like changing size/colour/position (check Guild Wars instead of WoW, they did a good job).

2. Statistics window after operations/flashpoints (really handy, to see how you yourself performed).

3. Some sort of threat meter (this one is really optional, because its more fun and skill to estimate it myself).

 

All other things are unneсesary to improve your skills and to beat operations/flashpoints. Some people voiced a good opinion - we did it without addons in WoW, we could do it without them here, we could do it anywhere if we use brains (i mean one in head, not spinal cord).

 

And i think all those things (customization and statistics) must come from bioware itself, because its only natural to allow players some comfort with UI.

 

And all above is IMHO, as always.

[xGBox]

Add-ons are not optional when fights are balanced around number crunching except of strategy and quick thinking. There's a lot of MMOs with harder fights than anything "that game" has and they're not about number crunching.

 

And to answer your first question: Having a very well crafted bot program read the combat data and reacts to it would allow you to do every operation on the highest level perfectly and flawlessly. It would help your team, and make you vastly more efficient. Having to actually READ the dps/aggro/whatever meters still allows you to make mistakes. A bot wouldn't.

 

So why do you actually play the game instead of using a bot? The answer is probably very similar to what people who don't want add-ons would tell you (unless your answer is "its against the eula!")

It still involves strategy and quick thinking. Add-ons, however, have the potential to make you a better tactician because you can analyze the information you need most in a more consistent and convenient manner. All actions in the game that you perform become executive decisions that determine if you live or die. These programs can improve your survivability by letting you make smarter decisions by analyzing information in a faster way.

 

I've healed 40-man instances before; I'd punch a man if they demanded me to use the standard interface. I've done it, but I almost ripped my hair out with all that work. I'm not saying the 16-man heroic flashpoints will be as intense, but I can tell you right now that the grid interface provided will not do the job.

 

Despite having all these add-ons, it doesn't give you the precision of a computer program; I guarantee you it'll still be challenging on certain flashpoints. And if it isn't enough, then you can turn it off. But like I said, I don't turn down free help that makes me a better player.

 

Many people quit WoW for a good reason. Why focus so much on trying to turn TOR into WoW?

 

If you want WoW addons, WoW x-y-z, play WoW. TOR has enough funding and IP behind it to evolve into its own kind of MMO, not a continuation of the same old rehash many people left behind when they quit.

 

That doesn't mean WoW didn't do some things right. I personally feel add-ons were a positive influence to the game. WoW's regular UI was garbage. I'm not saying SWTOR's inferface is garbage but it's pretty damn close. Why do I feel like I'm playing 800x600? Why can't the map provide me more than one layer of information? Add-ons can fix my problem, but not everybody wants that problem fixed. All I'm asking is at least ALLOW the players to make choices to their interface.

Edited January 4, 2012 by xGBox

[zYNNN]

If you think that terrible stat sheet at the end of a war zone is the answer then really its not, just go on the sorcerer forums and have a look at all the kids bragging about doing 500k damage in a war zone, with their AoE hybrid builds.

 

It's easy looking at the numbers in bold, but player and guilds who want to improve will want detailed analysis of damages done, healing done, which this game lacks.

 

ATM the stat sheet is far to vague, and will be used for the wrong reasons,

 

Bragging in chat (again refer to the sticky in the sorcerer forums)

Justifying a reason to kick a player from group

Determining if a player is good or not

 

I'm not saying add recount, but if they plan on staying with the Stat sheet, it need to be alot more detailed so a player, especially newer players can ;

Monitor their own DPS

Check whether current speccs, gear, rotation etc is making a significant difference

Also checking DPS uptime during an encounter, DoT uptime, Overhealing, not to mention procc's, interrupts, decursing etc.

 

I would suggest something along the lines of World of Logs, where guilds can go back and look at what was going wrong etc and analyse data.

[morporkia]

...I really didn't expect to see this subject line, but then again, last night I saw someone raging over the fact that companions can be customized, so clearly people will complain about anything.

 

I like my ability bars to be rounded instead of square, I like having a chatlog saver so I can afk for a few minutes and be able to catch up upon returning, I like being able to customize how debuffs appear on my raid frames, and yes, I like being able to see who in my raid is not using the Lightwell, who's taking more damage than they should from standing in things, and what the tank just died of -- was it something I could have prevented, was it not?

 

I don't expect Bioware to cater to every one of my whims -- there are bigger issues they should probably be focusing their time on -- but the nice thing about the modder community is that there's almost always someone out there who wants the same thing you do, and fortunately, some of them have the technical know-how to make it work!

 

If you're the type who just wants a good old-fashioned bare-bones UI, that's fine, too. It's not as though we can't co-exist. I know good players who play with add-ons; I know good players who play without add-ons. I know bad players who play with a mountain of add-ons, and I know bad players who stay with vanilla UI. In the end, who cares? It's the results that count.

 

Honestly, people are not going to care if you (generic you) don't use a mod that tells you not to stand in stuff IF YOU DON'T STAND IN STUFF. They're probably not going to kick you from a raid for pulling average DPS, though they might if you're pulling abysmally low DPS, or DPS that's not consistent with your gear level. It means that you COULD be doing better -- significantly better -- and you're not doing so, either because you just don't care, or because you don't know how.

 

For those who just don't care, um, yeah, don't be surprised if serious raiders don't want to raid with you, because obviously they do care. There's nothing wrong with playing with other people who don't care, either; content will just be more difficult to clear.

 

For those who want to do better but don't know how, isn't it preferable to know that something's wrong so you can fix it?

 

(Of course, there are also groups of jerks who will kick at the drop of a hat, but why would YOU want to raid with THEM, anyway? :/)

 

I just don't see how the answer to 'DPS meters will empower elitest jerks who think everything is judged by big numbers!' is 'Let's take away DPS meters entirely so nobody knows what exactly is going wrong, and we can all spend nights wiping in futility!' or even 'Let's take away all add-ons entirely so everyone has to play with the same UI, hurrah!' To me, it seems rather like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Edited January 4, 2012 by morporkia

[Vankris]

The pro crowd is most part mainly the elitist jerks that we don`t want in Star Wars.

 

now there is a bold statement.

 

I believe pro addon are experienced player, that want more depth to the game than just pretty shiny spell and nice animation.

 

but then again, people tend tu put all addon in the same bag. I am a defender of meter type addon, like recount, or combat log parsing.

 

 

that add on isn't bad, it simply state the fact, the simple truth (given that there are not technical limitation like, alternate dimension, distance too long, bug...)

 

it's how player decide to use it that can make a volatile situation in raid. People can be ***, i give you that, but they will be *** with or without recount.

 

another thing: there is nothing wrong in pointing other people mistake. If your dps is too low or you're not avoiding aoe damage you shoud, you need to know, how else can you improve otherwise?

[TheSkate]

I just don't want this game to become all about the addons and the "optimal build". WoW became that game. If you didn't have the 3-5 "required" addons and the perfect build with the perfect rotation then you were a noob. Especially DPS meters. If you had one bad day in a raid, unless it was a guild raid and they knew you, you were blacklisted and never invited again. A DPS meter doesn't tell people (or the portion that does is never looked at) that your DPS was 2k lower than the other mage/rogue/hunter etc. because you actually moved out of the bad **** and required 35% less healing then the next higher DPS. This game is fun. Lets not make it another job like WoW became where if you didn't do everything perfect you were shunned by all but your friends. Certain UI changes need to be made by Bioware, like target of target window and some kind of threat/agro indicator. However DPS meters, healbot type addons and deadly boss mods clones are not only not needed, they are not wanted by most players (elitist ***-hats excluded).

[Tourniquett]

I mostly didn't mind addons in WoW until GearScore. That freakin' thing being mentioned for almost every PuG raid or whatnot, when anyone who can play knows gear doesn't automatically make you a better player. I saw people in amazing gear who could barely compete with people in blues, yet all anyone wanted was a GS of over <insert current patches average GS here>.

.

 

^ This.

[morporkia]

A DPS meter doesn't tell people (or the portion that does is never looked at) that your DPS was 2k lower than the other mage/rogue/hunter etc. because you actually moved out of the bad **** and required 35% less healing then the next higher DPS.

 

Um, yes, it does. And people do look at things like Deaths, Damage Taken, Healing Taken, Dispels, Interrupts, etc. Maybe you're not playing with the right people?

 

I suppose, by your logic, I must be an elitest ******, because I like Grid, Recount and DBM. When doing progression raiding, my Recount generally defaults to Deaths. When pugging instances, I check Dispels and Interrupts to get an idea of which people in my group I can trust to not tunnel vision, which people I'd like to run with again.

 

After a wipe, it's fantastic that I can link the Death or Damage Taken report to show, if necessary, that people died to stuff they shouldn't have instead of having everything blamed on me as a healer because, hey, people are dead! Clearly I wasn't doing my job! Because without a Recount-type mod, that's what's going to happen. (I mean, sometimes it's me screwing up. But it's nice to be able to show when it isn't!)

 

Of course, that's just me. I'm sure there are plenty of people who just look at Damage Done, and laugh at everyone underneath them. But, you know, depriving them of a DPS meter will not alter their personalities. If their group wipes to an enrage timer and they can't tell who's pulling lower DPS, they'll just spread their abuse to the entire group. You can see plenty of that in Battlegrounds, where people don't know who to blame for a loss, so they just blame everybody.

 

Removing damage meters -- let alone all mods -- is not going to make the game a happier place.

Edited January 4, 2012 by morporkia

[TheSkate]

Um, yes, it does. And people do look at things like Deaths, Damage Taken, Healing Taken, Dispels, Interrupts, etc. Maybe you're not playing with the right people?

 

I suppose, by your logic, I must be an elitest ******, because I like Grid, Recount and DBM. When doing progression raiding, my Recount generally defaults to Deaths. When pugging instances, I check Dispels and Interrupts to get an idea of which people in my group I can trust to not tunnel vision, which people I'd like to run with again.

 

After a wipe, it's fantastic that I can link the Death or Damage Taken report to show, if necessary, that people died to stuff they shouldn't have instead of having everything blamed on me as a healer because, hey, people are dead! Clearly I wasn't doing my job! Because without a Recount-type mod, that's what's going to happen. (I mean, sometimes it's me screwing up. But it's nice to be able to show when it isn't!)

 

Of course, that's just me. I'm sure there are plenty of people who just look at Damage Done, and laugh at everyone underneath them. But, you know, depriving them of a DPS meter will not alter their personalities. If their group wipes to an enrage timer and they can't tell who's pulling lower DPS, they'll just spread their abuse to the entire group. You can see plenty of that in Battlegrounds, where people don't know who to blame for a loss, so they just blame everybody.

 

Removing damage meters -- let alone all mods -- is not going to make the game a happier place.

 

MAYBE a good raid leader looked at those items mentioned. Maybe. Usually it was only the healers that looked at those stats, and if they said anything they were told to quit whining about someone standing in fire and heal like they are supposed to. "Just heal through it". How many time have you heard that? Never ran into a good raid leader in a pug.

 

A lack of DPS meters is a very good thing. It keeps the rage filled children from being able to point fingers and if they rage anyways they get on that whole groups /ignore list. Soon they are no longer able to play with 1/2 the server pop and hopefully learn to calm down.

 

I don't want to remove damage meters -- and mods won't be necessary if BW/EA incorporate a few changes of their own -- I don't want them added because they will make the game a sadder place.

Edited January 4, 2012 by TheSkate

[scubamonk]

You know addons work the other way too? I mean I always hear the argument of the player in best in slot gear who is the worst player in history because he stares at meters. Lets say currently you're doing a boss and you hit enrage over and over again. You have 1 dps in awesome gear, one in bare minimum gear. When you hit enrage who do you think gets the boot?

 

I always hear the argument its the player not the gear. Without concrete evidence it becomes about the gear. If I have 2 dps in vastly different gear levels and have issues with dps, as it stands now I will boot the person in bad gear and keep the person in good gear. I don't like that, but odds are its the person in bad gear thats the issue, I have no way to know for sure. I've seen in many games people play way higher than their gear level. With concrete data I could know if the person in great gear is really bad and he is the drag on my group.

 

More information with which to make educated decisions can never be a bad thing.

[shdwklown]

MAYBE a good raid leader looked at those items mentioned. Maybe. Usually it was only the healers that looked at those stats, and if they said anything they were told to quit whining about someone standing in fire and heal like they are supposed to. "Just heal through it". How many time have you heard that? Never ran into a good raid leader in a pug.

 

A lack of DPS meters is a very good thing. It keeps the rage filled children from being able to point fingers and if they rage anyways they get on that whole groups /ignore list. Soon they are no longer able to play with 1/2 the server pop and hopefully learn to calm down.

 

I don't want to remove damage meters -- and mods won't be necessary if BW/EA incorporate a few changes of their own -- I don't want them added because they will make the game a sadder place.

 

Then you were running with really bad pugs. I never once had a raid leader tell a healer to quit complaining about people standing in fire. Though I could probably write a book the size of War & Peace filled with quotes of raid leaders telling people to move out of fire.

 

You need to find a better quality of players to group with. Same old story though, blaming the horrors of MMOs on tools instead of where the blame clearly lies. With the players who are just bad in general or the ones who want to be elitist a--hats.

[Enginer]

IMO, Add on's show you the players who do not understand an encounter or their class.

 

That is why most players do not want them.

[Diptera]

Isn't a game supposed to be about having fun? I've found most add-ons are for either the lazy (can't pay attention to who needs heals or buffs) or anal retentive (we all have to play this way) and they suck the fun out of playing a MMO.

 

 

Hear Hear Gezzer.

[moosedog]

How do addons like healbot take the skill out of the game?? Is there some secret healbot I didn't know about?

 

It seems like the only thing it does is allow you to better customize your raid(operation) frames and click once instead of twice( just cast your ability instead of click your target and then cast your ability).

[Mastrmynd]

I'm going to ad my 2 cents in and this will most likely be washed under by the flood of "addons are bad bro, l2p"

 

But I would like to see Bioware take a page out of Warhammer onlines GUI book, or RIFT. Both had built in customizable UI options. I liked the fact that a person like me who plays on a 42" monitor can size the UI down so it doesn't cover 1/2 of my screen. Make the UI completely customizable within the game itself. have it be a slash command to "unlock" everything and you can move it around re-size it. Hell some options even let you change the color!

 

The other HUGE thing I would really REALLY love to see implemented into the game is MACROS! The ability to create your own macros within the game to preform simple functions like mouse-over casts. (this would almost eliminate the need for target of target frame)

 

SWTOR's UI in its current state feels much like a console version of pretty much any Bioware game. Which is neat I guess. But they have the ability to do so much more without allowing 3rd party addons.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFZjvrqxQrc

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iYKJBJDgjM

 

Ive added a couple videos of the Warhammer and RIFTs built in UI customization. No DPS meters, no threat meters, just the ability to re-arrange everything and scale it to your hearts desire.

 

Like others have said no matter how many petitions you sign or threads you stamp with your approval you wont be able to stop the community from developing addons eventually. I just hope Bioware sees the outcry (from both sides) and creates a solution that best fits the majority

[ChampionChains]

I just want a customizable UI. I want to have enough bars and slots for my abilities and consumables. I'd like to be able to arrange them around my screen as I see fit. I'd like to be able to place my minimap and chat box where I want them.

 

Right now at lvl 31, my Jugg has 3 full ability bars. the 4th (far left) is used for my companion since each time I zone/fast travel/resummon my companion, I've got to toggle my companions abilities since they won't save the way I set them. Also, none of my consumables/usable items I put on the far right action bar stay after I log or leave a pvp match (for instance, I have to reset my relics and consumables each time I log on).

 

I don't care about dps meters. Don't care about healbot (only because I don't heal, I have noticed current party frames often times show full health for party members when that is not always the case, also they don't show party members resources which is good for the group to know). I don't want a mod with enrage timers that tells me how to kill a boss, I'd like to learn for myself. I don't want a threat meter, dps should understand that they should pace themselves a little and not blow everything on the first 3secs of a pull.

 

I think a lot of people who want add-ons want to be able to change the way the game LOOKS, not neccessarily how it plays. Not all add-ons are crutches, many are simply cosmetic. The current UI feels like something that'd be on a console port.

[Serranex]

I personally hate those DPS/heal meter programs.

They ruined WoW for me. I played a ret pally from day one and I did pretty good except for solo, which was a PITA having no pulling ability.

But 5 mans, raids, did what I was supposed to do, what hybrids are meant to do. Fill in where ever there's a need. Very few wipes in any group I was in. I could be DPSing then stepping back and throwing some extra heals around, even off tanking when needed.

When ever some one had a look at the percentages I was in the middle for DPS, but same for heals. After BC it was "your a ret pally you should be putting out more DPS", etc. Playing became more of a formula with rotations, and burst damage, and less about paying attention and reacting as needed. H@ll a trained monkey could play a pally after awhile.

Those meters and PVP ruined playing a ret pally for me.

Isn't a game supposed to be about having fun? I've found most add-ons are for either the lazy (can't pay attention to who needs heals or buffs) or anal retentive (we all have to play this way) and they suck the fun out of playing a MMO.

 

Just saying this is an excuse for bad players.

 

Good players do everything you say you do, AND put out top notch DPS.

 

I was assigned to do interrupts one time. Although I could've just wallowed and did garbage DPS since I had a crucial role, I continued to maximize my DPS while performing my role.

 

Doing something you shouldn't be doing is not an excuse for poor performance.

[sithkllr]

why exactly do you not want addons available? If you don't like them, don't use them.

 

^this^

[Ahraa]

I would like to see more of a movable and re-sizable UI, rather than addons.

[Nicdanger]

After skimming this thread the entire argument I see against add-ons comes down to . .

 

"It makes stupid people more stupid and mean people more mean."

 

Seriously? Actual high-end raiding requires things that let you judge your own performance. DPS meters are a tool, you wouldn't break your hammer because your kid smashed a window with it would you? You would try and teach your kid what the hammer is used for.

 

Add-ons turn healing from painfully impossible to something that actually feels fun and challenging. Healbot is a joke, people who use it are clueless and terrible. I've healed in WoW and Rift, healing in Rift is terrible thanks to a lack of good add-ons and its awful add-on API and its a big reason I no longer play the game.

 

 

Why deny the game free programming hours by denying the use of add-ons? I would much rather have Bioware focused on fixing bugs and releasing new content than tweaking the UI.

 

Add-ons will make the game better in so many ways your pathetic brains can't comprehend.

[zzReggzz]

There shouldn't even be a discussion about this. Look if you want SWTOR to have a complex end game with raid bosses that require tank swapping, aggro dumps, CC, Timed events, etc... Without addons none of these features would really even be possible... We need addons for the game to be complete... If you don't like it then you probably don't like end game content.

[TheSkate]

There shouldn't even be a discussion about this. Look if you want SWTOR to have a complex end game with raid bosses that require tank swapping, aggro dumps, CC, Timed events, etc... Without addons none of these features would really even be possible... We need addons for the game to be complete... If you don't like it then you probably don't like end game content.

 

I don't like end game content current WoW style. If it is impossible to beat without addons then it probably won't be in the game now will it? Has been mentioned many times before, but if BW starts allowing this crap then they will end up tuning the game in such a way as to be unplayable without addons just like WoW ended up being. Players watched their addons 90% of the time instead of enjoying the game play. When content is tuned in such a way that you HAVE to have addons to tell you what to do then it just become a game of Simon Says. No fun. FUN

[Slomoshun]

Agreed, add-ons are bad mm'kay

 

Yea..

 

Addons are bad..Just like modding PC games is bad..

 

Get real dude.

 

Modding on PC is 99% of the reason I'm a PC gamer..Addons improve games just like Modding improves games. It's no different.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Slomoshun

[socoamaretto]

It's pathetic how many people don't want a damage meter. You can have fun in this game with and without it. But the people who have it and wipe because people can't do their job right deserve to know if you suck. Simple as that.

 

Even if you don't play with a recount, as long as your doing your job right...does it really matter if people see how you do?

Edited January 5, 2012 by socoamaretto