Charging Subscribers for Content

[SaintForHire]

To me this is where the line between subscriber and F2P becomes fuzzy, We were ALWAYS told that subscribers would not have to pay for any content (with the exception of expansion packs) but now it seems if you want to play as a Cathar you will need to spend additional money as a subscriber to do so...

 

Also you know subscribers are not going to want to wait months to save up Cartel Coins to play a new race, so the statement they can wait and save up is a joke. If you want to lose your entire subscriber base Bioware keep doing stuff like this...

 

EDIT: BTW, this is just the beginning of the end, you know all future Warzones, Operations and Flashpoints will also be sold to subscribers on the Cartel Shop... So being a subscriber is starting to look like a rip-off....

 

I agree with everything, except also, subscribers pay 15 dollars a month for content plus cartel coins. I think that cartel coins shouldn't count as "free" for subscribers. And it's BS that we are going to have to pay for the cathar just like f2p players have to.

 

If subscribers have to pay for Cathar, then Bioware sets the precedent and there is a chance that subscribers will have to pay for future content as well.

[NamShub]

ITT: Subscribers who complained about F2P players getting things for free complaining that they don't get the Cathar species for free.

[Xecryo]

I'm willing to bet it will cost roughly as much as paying Cartel Coins for other race unlocks (Which isn't all that much if memory serves). This implies it may also be purchasable by legacy for credits. That being said subs DO get monthly CC stipends so in the end you could easily buy Cathar without spending a dime outside of the sub (Which in essence is what pays for new content). I'd be more concerned whether the new planet they've announced will be considered an expansion and/or if we will be charge/cartel coined for it. It would have to be a pretty good planet for me to want to have to pay outside a sub for it.

[Soluss]

What are you doing here, I wonder. If there are better games why wasting money and time here?

 

I could ask you the same thing. If this game is so great then why are playing on the forums instead of playing the game.

[Soluss]

What *** did you pull that out of?

 

First off the game wasnt making alot of money. They had huge lay offs, including high level devs, huge server merges, and they had to open the game to f2p. I think we can all agree the game wasnt doing well. The CC shop gave them the ability to fund things that they wouldnt have otherwise.

 

Let me give you an example. With sub plan, they release everythng for 15 a month. Now they still get your 15 plus give you about $5 in CC. This allows you to spend your extra $5 as you see fit on new fluff like armor skins or different races. Now lets say they do really well with armor sales. They decide to spend their time adding even mmore armor options because thats where we spend our CC. You know have additional fluff that wouldnt be there unless WE spent the CC to buy.

 

Take the cathar for example. If lots of people spend CC to unlock it, it will encourage Bioware to spend time making other races. Maybe one that I might like or you may like. Then again if people dont spend CC to get the cathar then they will be less likely to work on other races.

 

The fact is that having a CC shop will HELP drive the devs into releasing other fluff/content. And still allows you to chose which fluff you want and what fluff you dont want. While still making it free because of the FREE CC we get each month.

 

Since I only chose what I want to spend my free CC on, the chances of HAVING to spend more than my free CC is small and thus I remain a Sub with no extra charges and even MORE fluff to choose from. And if I see something I really really really want....I can spend the money on it or wait and save up for it, or get it on the GTN.

 

I know the game wasnt making enough money. Anyone with half a brain knows the game wasnt making enough money. I said that to make a point. All the ToR lovers around here would tell you the game is doing just fine. The game isnt failing. They made all their investments back on box sales alone. F2P is just because thats where the market is headed and it has nothing to do with the subscriptions not sustaining the game. Well... its one or the other. Either its Fine and making plenty of money or its not and its failing. It cannot be both.

[Soluss]

Wow Soluss, this almost reads like a conspiracy theory. There is nothing in the CCM that I see as even approaching necessary content in the game. If you do, please explain what is.

 

For now you can call it a consipiracy theory. Necessary content is debateable. Depends on what you view as necessary. Depends on what you view you should recieve in return for being a sub. I view this game as a very basic MMO that is missing alot of what other MMOs offer for 15 dollars a month. They are finally adding things that other MMOs have but charging subscribers extra for it.

 

It may just be fluff now. It may just be a race later. For some people that is enough to say "Im not getting my subs worth and now you want to charge me more to feel like im getting my subs worth" The type of things they are adding in the cartel shop and even in the gambling packs... are the same type of things you can find in other MMOs for just the 15 dollar subscription. Hell, Rift puts out more then the cartel shop does in every single event they do. They do those events on along side every major update every 4 months. They dont charge extra for that, thats part of the 15 bucks a month you pay. Later on it may be things like flashpoints and warzones and operations. They will justify it to you by calling them mini expansions. Eventually you will hardly get any free content. It will all be cash shop purchase content. Eventually you will not have enough stipend points to buy it without paying cash on top of it.

 

At some point you need to take a serious look at what they are doing. You may find ToR to be the best MMO out there. Thats fine but its still just another MMO. It is not another class of MMOs. Battlefield is the same class as CoD and vise versa. They both cost the same amount. Some people find one better then the other. That doesnt mean the other is worth more on the market. They are worth the same. Just like this MMO is worth the same as WoW, Rift, EQ series, Lotro... etc.

 

This game is just about 1 year old now. For you to truely understand what I mean, do some research. Dont just dismiss what I say because you think ToR is the best game on the market. Go look at the first year of Rift updates. Put them side by side with ToRs updates. I assure you that you will see Rift has about 5 times the amount of content updates that ToR has. Not just dungeons and raids. They added more things. They did a damn good event for each one. Added fishing and survival tradeskills. Added more fluff content. Added instant adventures. Added and entire new zone with a heap load of new quests and dynamic content. Added tons of dungeons and raids. Added marco abilities and the ability for people to make their own custom mods. Added group finder and server transfers FOR FREE that blow away ToRs server merges. All these things they added for 15 bucks a month.

 

Like I said, just because you find ToR to be a better MMO... doesnt mean it is worth paying more on the market. When you compare these two MMOs side by side, how can you possibly feel you are getting your subscriptions worth. If ToR did the type of updating that Rift did... then ToR would easily rival WoW. I guarentee that. Dollar for Dollar, Rift has 5 times the value of ToR and Rift doesnt try to nickle and dime their subscribers.

[Tsillah]

The game is not perfect but I enjoy it mostly for the leveling/story lines. Endgame I don't care so much for cause I'm not big on treadmills, but I do fp's and occasionally might get tempted into EV.

 

But I still prefer paying a sub. But even games with subs have stuff that is cash shop only. But then in this game you get something like 500 coins a month to spend in the cartel shop as part of you sub.

 

So you get to choose what to do with it. If you wanna play Cathar, buy it with the cartel coins you get from your sub. If you don't spend it on something else.

 

I just don't see the point of the op here since you can get the upgrade with your sub, via the cartel coins you get from your sub.

[Soluss]

I understand your perspective and agree with the concept that everything in a cash shop should be available to subscribers in-game as a rare drop, or quest grind, or something. But the fact that, as a 6-month at-a-clip subscriber with a security key, my 700 CC monthly stipend will eventually get me whatever I want as part of my subscription - at no extra cost to me.

 

Thus subscribers remain unaffected unless they want something right this instant. A consumer's impatience is not the retailer's fault, but it won't stop the retailers from charging a premium for expedited delivery. Expedited delivery will always cost extra. Though I would be disappointed if any playable race wasn't available to subscribers outside the Cartel Shop in some fashion.

 

I dont think you understand me fully. I dont actually have a problem with them putting some exclusives on the cash shop that even subs have to pay for. I dont have a problem with that one bit. What I have a problem with is that everything is going to go on there. This game is lacking so much fluff and so much side content that I find it a slap in the face that everything goes on there. Games like WoW survived so long because people always had something to work towards. Dungeons that drop rare special mounts. Epic quest chains for special gear. Achievements to earn that may or may not grant more fluff. Guild levels to earn with cool perks. Things of that nature. This game has almost none of that type of gameplay. Nothing to keep people wanting to do the content more and more. You do a dungeon or op for a couple weeks and get the 1 gearset for your class and you are done. There is nothing more to achieve.

[Soluss]

I think it will more likely be in a cycle. I think we will see the rise of the Freemium hybrid model to a zenith and then it will ebb and the Sub model will return if the hybrid model can not deliver on quality and or ends up nickling and diming people to death. If either of these things happen we will see a return to subs and then the cycle will repeat. Everything seems to operate in cycles in this existance. Why should payment models be immune?

 

 

Its already cycling, it just hasnt hit MMOs yet. Companies like zynga who rely on "cash shop" purchases are suffering losses because people are tired of being nickled and dimed for garbage.

[Andryah]

What I have a problem with is that everything is going to go on there.

 

Speculation, absent actual facts, and designed to prosecute an extreme bias of view.

 

You take transaction events (like deciding to make Cathar a coin shop feature) and try to weave it into a web of conspiracy that "everything is going to go on there". Yet just last week they released HK-51 as free quest content to subscribers. How come HK-51 was not a coin shop only content item... being as it was released with F2P??

 

See, it only takes one example that does not fit your web of conspiracy to prove your absolutist view wrong.

 

Suggestion: if you want people to take your views seriously, how about temper them to reality rather then extreme absolute proclomations.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Andryah

[Selvec]

I wouldn't consider this something to get up in arms about. Anything you have to start a new character for isn't anything more then fluff. It's not stopping you from hearing a story, or gaining information about the world. It might as well be a skin change.

 

If you want to get up in arms about something, get up in arms about the charging for HK-51 and Section-X. That is content, and subs shouldn't have been charged for it.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Selvec

[Urael]

For now you can call it a consipiracy theory ...

 

From: Link to Dulfy's Interview: F2P & Future content interview with developer Damion Schubert :

 

5. Are there any content in the future (that are not part of a major expansion) that subscribers will have to make a purchase in the Cartel Market to gain access?

 

What we sell vs. what we give away will vary widely based on the sort of content we’re talking about. There will definitely be content that is only available for purchase – much of the contents in the Cartel Packs, for example, are not available in any other ways. However, we also definitely want to ensure that our subscription option is a good value, and have plans to make that richer over time.

 

And I discussed this in post #2 of this thread: Do no rely exclusively on the Cartel Shop for content unlocks.

 

Again EAware doesn't define "content" the way that we the gamers define content.

 

I would say that Soluss is on to something.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Urael

[Soluss]

Speculation, absent actual facts, and designed to prosecute an extreme bias of view.

 

You take transaction events (like deciding to make Cathar a coin shop feature) and try to weave it into a web of conspiracy that "everything is going to go on there". Yet just last week they released HK-51 as free quest content to subscribers. How come HK-51 was not a coin shop only content item... being as it was released with F2P??

 

See, it only takes one example that does not fit your web of conspiracy to prove your absolutist view wrong.

 

Suggestion: if you want people to take your views seriously, how about temper them to reality rather then extreme absolute proclomations.

 

Excuse me but everything that has happend thus far, I and others said would happen long before it did. You all said the same **** back then "Speculation". Im sorry you feel its speculation but every piece of speculation has come true thus far. When it does come to happen, you sit there and twist the hows and whys it happen to make the company look good.

 

You and others like you, may continue to be fooled by everything EA has done but I am not. They have a track record now and what I "speculated" that will happen is along that same track.

 

HK51 could just as easily be a gimmick to get a quick burst of sub dollars. One thing not being on the cash shop does not make my view wrong. I said, in that same view, that you would get thrown a bone here and there. Its not like HK 51 is even that big of deal. It was suppose to be and should have been a very epic questline. While the ship part was very well done, the rest of the quest was utter garbage. Its not like it took them alot of effort to implement something that was already finished back in beta. Yes, HK51 was in beta.

[fungihoujo]

Race isn't content- it's cosmetic, and cosmetic things are even acceptable in completely p2p games like WoW.

 

Besides- you get 500 free coins a month or more, and potentially had 2500+ coins already. As a subscriber you can easily get this without paying a cent more than your sub fee, it just means having to buy a few less cartel packs.

[fungihoujo]

I wouldn't consider this something to get up in arms about. Anything you have to start a new character for isn't anything more then fluff. It's not stopping you from hearing a story, or gaining information about the world. It might as well be a skin change.

 

If you want to get up in arms about something, get up in arms about the charging for HK-51 and Section-X. That is content, and subs shouldn't have been charged for it.

 

Actually, hk and section X are free for subscribers, you only have to buy it as a f2p.

[SaijaRii]

Subs paying for new races? Fail. I hate bioware now. I never thought I'd say that.

 

I started hating and boycotting Bioware with Dragon Age II. MMOs excluded.

Edited November 20, 2012 by SaijaRii

[Darth_Urtani]

Aaaaand sub cancelled.

 

I already payed over $200 plus monthly, and now they're going to charge us for things we should get for free (hence the *********** subscription)I'm sick of this. I'm done.

[Cordelia]

That's what the great and wonderful Blizzard does afterall.

 

Praise the lord!

 

You've finally seen the light Andryah

[Katsuragisama]

Wait, you're all seriously surprised by this?

 

Back when Makeb was mentioned, they said they would give it out in a content update. Then when they announced F2P, suddenly Makeb was on hold, and they didnt know if they would charge people for it or give it to subs for free.

 

I mean, cmon. F2P has to pay just to show their title or hide their head slot. And you're amazed they're gonna charge for a cosmetic furry human (well, they're all human, just recolored cause BioWare's lazy)? Ofcourse they're gonna charge for everything they think they can get away with.

[Soluss]

Wait, you're all seriously surprised by this?

 

Back when Makeb was mentioned, they said they would give it out in a content update. Then when they announced F2P, suddenly Makeb was on hold, and they didnt know if they would charge people for it or give it to subs for free.

 

I mean, cmon. F2P has to pay just to show their title or hide their head slot. And you're amazed they're gonna charge for a cosmetic furry human (well, they're all human, just recolored cause BioWare's lazy)? Ofcourse they're gonna charge for everything they think they can get away with.

 

There are 3 types of people in this thread.

 

1. People that knew this was comming and dont like it

2. People that accept anything EA does as long as they got lightsabres (may or may not have expected it but dont care either way)

3. People that didnt expect this and dont like it

[slimboi]

If Bioware does this, then I'm gone, along with my 15 dollars a month

[Viyk]

EQ2 also does this with the Freeblood race. Not saying it's wrong or right, just that EA isn't the only company to implement charging for fluff race.

[AshlaBoga]

I'll be honest here, I would be angry but I really really dislike cats in real life. A race of cats in SWTOR?

 

:mad::mad:

 

So despite this clearly being avarice on EA's part, I don't care simply because I hate Cathar.

[Soluss]

EQ2 also does this with the Freeblood race. Not saying it's wrong or right, just that EA isn't the only company to implement charging for fluff race.

 

If ToR had the amount of things to do and fluff content that EQ2 had, I might feel different about it. Even at launch EQ2 had more to do then ToR has now.

[-Steph-]

I'm not exactly surprised they would try charge everyone for the new race. They charge F2P for some ridiculous things already like quick bars, titles, hiding helmets etc - seems like they are trying to get money anyway possible.

 

But I think its liveable that some races might be Cartel purchase only. As long as its not too expensive for subscribers to save up for, its really a cosmetic item in the end after all. I think it would be better not to charge subscribers - but I doubt there is anyway to stop them from trying to rake cash in now.

 

It doesn't need to mean that everything is doom and gloom and all future races will go to the Cartel shop, they can and should still make some for future updates/expansions and subscribers only.

 

Now if they start charging subscribers for content updates that are too small to be expansions... then it will turn into a major problem.