Stealth Classes are UnBalanced

[TripleCharged]

Quit being a hero and trying to solo cap a node; cowboy.

 

Unless you are a stealther going for the ninja.

 

*Trollface*

 

Can you even read?

I almost never try to run alone to an enemy held capture point to attempt to take it alone as a RDPS. Sometimes I get a cruddy team So I have to defend a point because none of the proper classes volunteer for it. And just like you said, only stealthers are good at solo capping because of the surprise factor and their ability to solo kill almost any player if they are even half decent.

[NoTomorrow]

The problem is, bw will not make any massive changes to the pvp baance. Personally for me most asassin population rolling hybrids would already ring bells. But they will barely change anything.

[NoTomorrow]

Quit being a hero and trying to solo cap a node; cowboy.

 

Unless you are a stealther going for the ninja.

 

*Trollface*

 

Yes yes because the attacking side has to commit more resources simply because there is 1 asassin defending.

[Technohic]

Yes yes because the attacking side has to commit more resources simply because there is 1 asassin defending.

 

Not necessarily. You could always send and another assassin or a DPS operative.

 

*Trollface*

 

EDIT. no but seruiously. Doesn't matter if its a stealther or not. Any team worth their salt is going to have someone to assist the inc call. Why send just one. Biggest reason for a loss IMO is solo zerging.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Technohic

[jgoldsack]

This is why I like to have alts of every class. Then I have a general idea of their strengths and weaknesses, so I know how to exploit them

[Kazmtyh]

This is why I like to have alts of every class. Then I have a general idea of their strengths and weaknesses, so I know how to exploit them

 

Bingo.

 

I made it a point t play one of each sub-class in the game for this exact reason.

[rgizzie]

I play a shadow as my main and I will tell you the best thing to keep me from going stealth. Hit me with a bleed so even if I go into stealth I will come out on the next tick of the bleed. That is what a good player does. I am full WH and squishy (I play infiltration and think balanced is for wimps) and only with a good healer am I indestructible.

[TripleCharged]

I play a shadow as my main and I will tell you the best thing to keep me from going stealth. Hit me with a bleed so even if I go into stealth I will come out on the next tick of the bleed. That is what a good player does. I am full WH and squishy (I play infiltration and think balanced is for wimps) and only with a good healer am I indestructible.

 

But classes I play rely on bleeds. Shadows have a cleanse they can use when they stealth I believe. And stealthers getting away is not as big of an issue as stealthers killing me from stealth.

[jgoldsack]

I play a shadow as my main and I will tell you the best thing to keep me from going stealth. Hit me with a bleed so even if I go into stealth I will come out on the next tick of the bleed. That is what a good player does. I am full WH and squishy (I play infiltration and think balanced is for wimps) and only with a good healer am I indestructible.

 

If you do not use your cleanse (if available) before you stealth then you are a fail shadow...

Edited December 3, 2012 by jgoldsack

[AMKSED]

But classes I play rely on bleeds. Shadows have a cleanse they can use when they stealth I believe. And stealthers getting away is not as big of an issue as stealthers killing me from stealth.

 

It all depends on how you use Resilience. Sometimes if I'm opening on a class I'll use Resilience first especailly if it's a bubblestun Sorc/Sage. Or a Rage Smash class. I don't know how many times I've seen the Rage people try to Exhaustion me and it not work then they instantly try to Choke me and I just giggle. Usually if I try to run away in cloak I'll sprint off and pray I get out of their line of site before a DoT ticks or I get damaged.

[Philelectric]

I am not an easy kill, i dont just simply stand there and attempt to DPS the target I was on before, I switch into, GET THE **** AWAY FROM THE *********** STEALTH CLASS mode. I usually have most of my cooldowns up to get away, and I can sometimes. But usually my health is below 50% while they are still at 100 by the time I am able to respond after the stuns break. Like I said, there is no good reliable counter to any stealth class that stuns you while they are stealthed. Even on my tank, by the time I stand up my health is too low to respond properly to the threat. And I am not going to create a stealth class because it is something I despise in every game I play. Whether it be Halo, TF2, SWTOR or any other game with a stealther in it, I hate them. I can only think of one reliable way to nerf stealth classes, Make it so while they are stealthed, their cooldowns to not come back, because all they have to do is stealth and sit in a corner, then pick out a single target, kill them and repeat. It does nothing to help the objective.

 

Its easy to counter a stealth class coming out of stealth. If a stealth class stun you out of stealth (or before wich is very retarded) and you die when your CC breaker is ready to use, you are an EASY target period.

 

Also, if a stealth class only kill you then restealth, this player is contributing to the objectif by: Blocking you so you cant cap,distracting you so you cant interupt or protecting/attacking the ball carrier.

 

Also, if a stealth class can come close to you and you do not detect him 100% of the time, its obviously because you are an EASY target. Sure stealth class can spend points in a perk that give them a better stealth mode but the players doing this are playing a spec that need the stealth to be 100% effective (aka Deception assassin, those are good but very easy to counter if they come out of stealth to kill you) There is also skills like Blackout that increase the stealth quality for a small amount of time but any decent player of better will use it only to go to an important spot that could help the team a lot (sand bags in huttball)

 

Finaly, stealth only give the possibility to have the openning hit of a fight and allow to move without being detected. There is absolutly no difference between being surprised by a stealth class or being surprised by a leaper smart enough to jump on players using some good angles to do it ''undetected''

[TripleCharged]

Finaly, stealth only give the possibility to have the openning hit of a fight and allow to move without being detected. There is absolutly no difference between being surprised by a stealth class or being surprised by a leaper smart enough to jump on players using some good angles to do it ''undetected''

You must be joking about that. A person leaping at you is completely different then having a stealther pop out of ***** mode and knock you down 50%.

Edited December 4, 2012 by TripleCharged

[Philelectric]

You must be joking about that. .

 

This is what I was thinking when I read the original post.

 

Also from what I've red (all your post in this thread) Its only a L2P issue possibly mixed with a gear issue.

[TripleCharged]

This is what I was thinking when I read the original post.

 

Also from what I've red (all your post in this thread) Its only a L2P issue possibly mixed with a gear issue.

 

read^

And gear is sort of an issue but it is not the only problem. The problem is stealthers, all points I have made are valid points with very little counter arguments other than "you are wrong" or "L2P newb". Stealthers are a real issue in this game and they need to be fixed. The resolve they build is far too little, when I force stun someone it fills their resolve 80%+ and a stun from stealthers seems to give me like 2% resolve.

[Philelectric]

read^

And gear is sort of an issue but it is not the only problem. The problem is stealthers, all points I have made are valid points with very little counter arguments other than "you are wrong" or "L2P newb". Stealthers are a real issue in this game and they need to be fixed. The resolve they build is far too little, when I force stun someone it fills their resolve 80%+ and a stun from stealthers seems to give me like 2% resolve.

 

You are obviously lying about the resolve in this post lol. I fill the resolve very quickly with my stuns on my assassin.

Also why do you think the majority of players think that stealth class are not overpowered when a few amount think stealth class are A BIT too strong and only YOU think they are OP?

 

And when you say: gear is sort of an issue but it is not the only problem, you confirm the L2P issue.

 

Not to mention that a lot of players sent arguments to explain why stealth class are not OP at all.

 

When someone(like you) put the operative dps in the overpowered bracket, EVERY single player with 1/4 of a brain+ decent skill know you are either trolling or have a gear/L2P issue.

 

Operative dps is a hard competitor to the merc for worst class in swtor.

 

You know,I was a bit like you before. For me Marauders were super overpowered then I learned to counter them. Now they are still very strong and dangerous but I can beat them with my Guardian(50) my assassin(50) and my sniper(50).

 

Also,may I ask you how you loose to an equaly geared operative and an equaly geared DPS assassin as a sniper? Its hard for me to loose when I fight those class plz gimme your secret so I can loose to them

[ezrafetch]

Hint: Operatives and Assassins are supposed to be the natural counter of Gunslingers. Because you can feast on the non-stealth melee classes with ease, and pretty much you can chew through any other Ranged DPS you're going up against. It's called class balance. I don't have a Sage so I won't comment, but at least for Gunslingers, you will get prioritized by Operatives and Assassins because they're the only ones who can actually get to you.

 

If you need extra CC to get away, hopefully you're packing Cybertech and can use the grenades. Flash Bang Grenade, Dirty Kick, Leg Shot, and the Cybertech grenade should be more than enough to discourage the stealther from attacking you then. Also, if you play Saboteur, you should have extra stuns and extra DR, making going up against Operatives and Assassins less frustrating.

[Uber_the_Goober]

<snip>

 

This is how most of my stealth kills go(assuming i am defending a point)

Stealth Stun, boom 15% health gone, boom 15% health gone, add a stun, (CC break this one)boom 15% of health,now I can move, I am probably slowed, gone, boom 15% of health gone, I stun them, they break it, I dont have any more stuns, they hit me again and I am dead.

OR

Stealth stun, break that, stun again, boom 15% health gone, boom 15% health gone, i can move, i stun them, the break it, out of stuns, start attacking them, get them down like 10% then I am dead.

 

And for my Sage/Gunslinger. It just happens faster, even If i can stun them or slow them, they get out of it soon enough to prevent me from moving, and kill me from there.

 

This describes a Bad Player. Learn to play better, and this won't happen as often. CC Break, followed by immediate knockback the moment they hit you. They're all melee, so keep them at bay and it'll be OK.

[jackrunip]

read^

And gear is sort of an issue but it is not the only problem. The problem is stealthers, all points I have made are valid points with very little counter arguments other than "you are wrong" or "L2P newb". Stealthers are a real issue in this game and they need to be fixed. The resolve they build is far too little, when I force stun someone it fills their resolve 80%+ and a stun from stealthers seems to give me like 2% resolve.

 

The scoundrel/operative, like most other class, can use two abilities to incapacitate their opponent before full resolve is achieved.

 

Let's go with a scoundrel and your gunslinger for example.

 

You happen to be standing at snow on Civil War, within 10 meters of the node. I check out your position with "Sneak" enabled (+15 to stealth level)

 

----The reason that sneak is enabled is to make sure I'm not visible to any potential stealth guards----

 

When I note that you are indeed by yourself I move into position behind you. (So I don't get seen, obviously)

I decide to go for the ninja cap so I ensure I can reach both you and the node. Now comes the "OP" part.

 

Scenario 1: I sap you for 8 seconds (Out of combat ONLY this can't be used in most group situations), you panic and break CC. I sap you again (Filling your resolve bar), instantly start capping the node. Game over.

 

Scenario 2: I sap you for 8 seconds and start capping. You break out and I flashbang you (Full resolve). Node is capped again, game over.

 

Scenario 3: I sap, start capping, you wait it out and save your breaker. I was too slow on the sap/cap and you manage to interrupt. I flashbang (Full resolve) and you break out. I am now down to dirty kick (4 second hard-stun) or using my disappearing act so I can sap you again. (Neither can be done until your resolve goes back down) So now I'm out of stealth (preventing my opener) and you have full health and full resolve. Unless you're an idiot or I make a mistake you win.

 

Scenario 4: The same as scenario 3 except I happen to be fast enough to take the node. What's the lesson here? Don't stand where a stealther can sap + cap. Change your position and you prevent any form of node stealing.

 

Any two stun/mezz abilities will fill your resolve all the way. It could be Sap + Flash, Sap + Opening knockdown, Sap + Dirty Kick, Opening Knockdown + Dirty Kick. Anyway you arrange it, it still fills resolve 100%

 

Please don't try telling people that stealthers resolve is broken. You want a broken resolve ability? Check the sorc/sage telekinetic/lightning bubble. Up to 12 seconds of HARD STUN can be achieved if the timing is right while two 4 second stuns from ANY OTHER class fill resolve.

 

And yes, we can hurt you bad in our opener but guess what? That's our job! (Going for the gunslinger here) If there were no stealth classes you could kill EVERY opponent who tried to reach you. Between the roots, knockbacks, flashbang, immunity to leaps (and stuns if you use your 20 second entrench) and excellent damage there would be few fights where you would lose. Counting the fact that all of the stuns got reduced to 10 meters further cements why stealth NEEDS to exist.

 

As a scoundrel my two targets are unbubbled sorcs (Because those damn bubbles eat up my opener and can stun me) and snipers (I can dodge and cleanse their attacks PLUS get up close without being seen). I can tear those classes apart quite easily. But you know what? I've still been killed by them when they play smart. If they can outlast the first 10-15 seconds of a fight then I lose.

 

Taking stealth out of the game because you don't want to figure out HOW to counter the class is sheer laziness on your part. There have been TONS of good suggestions in this thread and you seem to ignore them so you can continue whining about something that isn't even an issue.

 

I made a thread a few months back about Pyrotechs vs. Scoundrels. In there I had a short rant about how tough pryos were to kill. They had 30 meters on their stun, incendiary round, and thermal detonator. A scoundrel out of stealth was easy pickings for a pyrotech.

 

You wanna know the difference between your thread and mine? I asked people for help on taking Pyros on, I asked for strategies and weaknesses...and I LISTENED to their suggestions. I followed advice from other people, I rolled a Pyrotech myself to see how the class worked. I found out everything I could about that class and guess what happened? I got better.

 

All you seem to be wanting to do is complaining about something you refuse to understand. And until the time comes that you actually WANT to learn how to beat stealthers..well... you're just going to be one of the easiest kills in PvP.

Edited December 4, 2012 by jackrunip

[Coturnix]

Well done Mr. jackrunip, well done.

 

Great constructive post. Im talking from shadow tank/hybrid pow. Did similar as you. When I had troubles to counter certain class, i rolled it or i asked friends to go some duels, where we could discuss strong and weak points and learn from each other. Life is learning, so is pvp. Whiners will never change to winers, if they dont accept this.

[MusicRider]

At least regarding your sage, go hybrid if you are not and if you still die so quickly especially from operatives then give up pvp.

[cycao]

read^

And gear is sort of an issue but it is not the only problem. The problem is stealthers, all points I have made are valid points with very little counter arguments other than "you are wrong" or "L2P newb". Stealthers are a real issue in this game and they need to be fixed. The resolve they build is far too little, when I force stun someone it fills their resolve 80%+ and a stun from stealthers seems to give me like 2% resolve.

 

lol wut? 2% resolve and your stun fills 80%...interesting hard data indeed. So If you don't mind me asking, what stun that these dirty stealthers have at there disposal that only fills 2%?

[yauhen_pt]

lol wut? 2% resolve and your stun fills 80%...interesting hard data indeed. So If you don't mind me asking, what stun that these dirty stealthers have at there disposal that only fills 2%?

 

its obvious - the bubble

 

nerf operatives

Edited December 4, 2012 by yauhen_pt

[TripleCharged]

lol wut? 2% resolve and your stun fills 80%...interesting hard data indeed. So If you don't mind me asking, what stun that these dirty stealthers have at there disposal that only fills 2%?

 

"gives me like 2% resolve"

It was sarcasm. A stun out of stealth that knocks me out for 4 seconds seems to give me less than 20% resolve.

[TripleCharged]

The scoundrel/operative, like most other class, can use two abilities to incapacitate their opponent before full resolve is achieved.

 

Let's go with a scoundrel and your gunslinger for example.

 

You happen to be standing at snow on Civil War, within 10 meters of the node. I check out your position with "Sneak" enabled (+15 to stealth level)

 

----The reason that sneak is enabled is to make sure I'm not visible to any potential stealth guards----

 

When I note that you are indeed by yourself I move into position behind you. (So I don't get seen, obviously)

I decide to go for the ninja cap so I ensure I can reach both you and the node. Now comes the "OP" part.

 

Scenario 1: I sap you for 8 seconds (Out of combat ONLY this can't be used in most group situations), you panic and break CC. I sap you again (Filling your resolve bar), instantly start capping the node. Game over.

 

Scenario 2: I sap you for 8 seconds and start capping. You break out and I flashbang you (Full resolve). Node is capped again, game over.

 

Scenario 3: I sap, start capping, you wait it out and save your breaker. I was too slow on the sap/cap and you manage to interrupt. I flashbang (Full resolve) and you break out. I am now down to dirty kick (4 second hard-stun) or using my disappearing act so I can sap you again. (Neither can be done until your resolve goes back down) So now I'm out of stealth (preventing my opener) and you have full health and full resolve. Unless you're an idiot or I make a mistake you win.

 

Scenario 4: The same as scenario 3 except I happen to be fast enough to take the node. What's the lesson here? Don't stand where a stealther can sap + cap. Change your position and you prevent any form of node stealing.

 

Any two stun/mezz abilities will fill your resolve all the way. It could be Sap + Flash, Sap + Opening knockdown, Sap + Dirty Kick, Opening Knockdown + Dirty Kick. Anyway you arrange it, it still fills resolve 100%

 

Please don't try telling people that stealthers resolve is broken. You want a broken resolve ability? Check the sorc/sage telekinetic/lightning bubble. Up to 12 seconds of HARD STUN can be achieved if the timing is right while two 4 second stuns from ANY OTHER class fill resolve.

 

And yes, we can hurt you bad in our opener but guess what? That's our job! (Going for the gunslinger here) If there were no stealth classes you could kill EVERY opponent who tried to reach you. Between the roots, knockbacks, flashbang, immunity to leaps (and stuns if you use your 20 second entrench) and excellent damage there would be few fights where you would lose. Counting the fact that all of the stuns got reduced to 10 meters further cements why stealth NEEDS to exist.

 

As a scoundrel my two targets are unbubbled sorcs (Because those damn bubbles eat up my opener and can stun me) and snipers (I can dodge and cleanse their attacks PLUS get up close without being seen). I can tear those classes apart quite easily. But you know what? I've still been killed by them when they play smart. If they can outlast the first 10-15 seconds of a fight then I lose.

 

Taking stealth out of the game because you don't want to figure out HOW to counter the class is sheer laziness on your part. There have been TONS of good suggestions in this thread and you seem to ignore them so you can continue whining about something that isn't even an issue.

 

I made a thread a few months back about Pyrotechs vs. Scoundrels. In there I had a short rant about how tough pryos were to kill. They had 30 meters on their stun, incendiary round, and thermal detonator. A scoundrel out of stealth was easy pickings for a pyrotech.

 

You wanna know the difference between your thread and mine? I asked people for help on taking Pyros on, I asked for strategies and weaknesses...and I LISTENED to their suggestions. I followed advice from other people, I rolled a Pyrotech myself to see how the class worked. I found out everything I could about that class and guess what happened? I got better.

 

All you seem to be wanting to do is complaining about something you refuse to understand. And until the time comes that you actually WANT to learn how to beat stealthers..well... you're just going to be one of the easiest kills in PvP.

 

You seemed to focus on the stealth cap. That is not as big of an issue, I am not dumb enough to advertise my position and stand on top of the node like most players. If it is civil war I stand on the steps hiding myself from potential opponents and giving my self the ability to interrupt the stealther as they attempt to cap it. My issue is when you said

[

Any two stun/mezz abilities will fill your resolve all the way. It could be Sap + Flash, Sap + Opening knockdown, Sap + Dirty Kick, Opening Knockdown + Dirty Kick. Anyway you arrange it, it still fills resolve 100%

The opening knockdown hits and me seems to give me less than 20% resolve, then as I stand back up they usually apply another stun before that initial one runs out, still not full resolve. If I break that one and dirty kick immediately they may or may not break it. I am dirty fighting So if I see them not break it I apply my shrap bomb+vital shot removing Flashbang from my CC's because it will break it nearly instantly. If I hunker down at this point my health is so low and they are so close they can kill me with just their blaster if they want to. There are scenarios with bad stealthers that I kill them easily because they are just poor players, but a good stealth player can insta-gib any gunslinger and that is just outright broken. I realize that your class is supposed to counter mine, but counter it so well to the point that I CAN NOT defend against you it breaks the game. And even If I do manage to get away stealthers have enough slows/roots that I will not get very far until they slow/root me which is uneffected by resolve.

[Philelectric]

[

. There are scenarios with bad stealthers that I kill them easily because they are just poor players, but a good stealth player can insta-gib any gunslinger and that is just outright broken. I realize that your class is supposed to counter mine, but counter it so well to the point that I CAN NOT defend against you it breaks the game. And even If I do manage to get away stealthers have enough slows/roots that I will not get very far until they slow/root me which is uneffected by resolve.

 

So you can beat the bad stealthers (aka your counter classes aka you are better than them) but you cant beat the good one (aka they are better than you) so the classes are overpowered.

 

Its nothing personal and I'm sorry if my comment hurt you but the post I quoted was sent by the super amazingly retarded side of your personality.

 

You clearly stated that you can beat some because you are better then the,=m and cant beat some because they are better than.

 

Have you ever played any sport? If the answer is yes, I bet every player/team that was able to beat you/your team were all cheaters