If we don't have CC, what DO we have?

[Ycoga]

I think the biggest issue that people have with stunbubble is the fact that you can put it on your entire team.

 

If the stun part only was applied to the sage/sorc's self-bubble then it wouldn't be a problem and you would get to keep the cc.

 

You are ignorant; the sage needs bubbles to pop on himself AND in his vicinity in order to stay alive long enough to help his team at a level equal to any other class.

[Ycoga]

Well the snipers/marauders must not be doing their jobs in your wzs. Because we are killing healers and softies first and they have zero defense for snipers...unless they bubble and run the entire fight.

 

Actually I have a better chance of killing a sniper than an assassin.

[Ycoga]

I had a dot spec sage take me to half health while I was killing it with another marauder. It came back and I was rescued again, no cc on the sages part with a a full wh, mostly itemized annihilation marauder, he got me to less than 5%. l2p? I did, always room for improvement.

 

Is it possible that class has more versatility than most give it credit for? Or was that guy just .... You get the picture.

 

If anyone can tell me what spec he was playing I'd be interested. Only thing to save me would have been a dot cleansing healer, and I've purged more than my share of that class. Is it possible there's more diversity to the class than a majority of people know?

What the heck are you saying here? Your post is very self-centered; you don't play a sage and this post is something about two marauders killing a sage together.

 

So what?

[Groncho]

As a DPS Sage/Sorc.

 

We don't have the tools to stand against the big boys of damage. PT/ Van, Snipe/Guns, Mara/Sent, Jugg/Guard all outdps us and slice through our squishiness in no time.

 

They all do huge burst DPS while our DPS is DoT, meaning they wipe us before our damage even gets the chance to tick all the way through.

Everyone knows burst is king in PvP. That makes us peasants. Possibly even pheasants.

 

All of their attacks are instant, ours can be interrupted with extreme ease (except for 10 secs every 2 mins... Woo). Guns/Snipe are immune to interrupts. And while they even get CC immunity (every 60 secs for 20 secs) to counter their lack of mobility, we get nothing and are still not mobile at all due to our cast times.

 

All of them have defensive cooldowns and can outsurvive us easily.

 

All our DPS can be effectively nullified by a 5 sec cooldown Restoration/Purge.

 

So everyone whines about resolve, CC, bubble stun, and overall wanting CC to be way less effective, and what will that leave us with? At the moment our only purpose is CCing. It's what balances us and gives us some survivability.

 

Maybe the problem is TOO MANY OTHER CLASSES CAN CC TOO MUCH. Maybe instead we should nerf everyone else's CC and make Sage/Sorc possibly a dedicated CC AC. If you want to lock someone down, you'll need a Sage/Sorc. I think that would be better balance.

 

We already have more CC related talents in our trees than any other AT, so maybe that was the original vision at some point...

 

The class was pretty good at 1.2

It's a shame how they destroyed it

in fact i call for a rollback to 1.2 for this class it wouldn't hurt actual pvp

[RogueNights]

I actually kinda like the state of cc in this game.. am not sure about stun bubbles though, sages using stun bubble on themselves to survive does not really worry me, its more in conjunction w/ others.. e.g. giving a smasher the stun bubble ability is not a good idea at all, so how is giving it to a sage who can cast it on anyone he wants and gives it to a smasher a good idea? its like the ultimate combo mobility of leaping, instant off gcd aoe chain stun, and huge aoe dps.. and the thing is most people only tap a small fraction of the potential effectiveness of it, and alot of people already are complaining...

 

On another note although not op in the traditional sense, say.. 3 sages stun bubbling is enough to drive melee dps ineffingsane.

 

And on another note, why not just give everyone the ability to stun bubble themselves, on a longer cd of course... except that would be insane.. how is the current situation not more insane tho..

[Jaiyne]

And a dps commando has what?

 

A really big gun.

 

pewpew

[Capt_Beers]

50 % buff to shock/project

25 % buff to deathfield/FiB

25 % TT/FL

100 % buff to our dots

Instant turbulence on a 12 sec CD and a 50 % buff to it.....

 

....would correlate with our squishiness. Once they've done that they're more than welcome to get rid of the bubble stuns.

 

Another idea would be to have TT/FL stack a dmg boost for every tick (10% per tick up to 50 %). That would however require a new mechanic and delay the class buff a good 6 months.

 

MY KC/Balance Shadow approves of these changes. Please make him unstoppable.

[Joesixxpack]

The class was pretty good at 1.2

It's a shame how they destroyed it

in fact i call for a rollback to 1.2 for this class it wouldn't hurt actual pvp

 

Yep, after that point I joined the dps masses respeccing to seer. Just an assumption, but I'm thinking BW prefers them used for healers as part of their balance strategy (insert balance strategy yuck yucks here).

[MidichIorian]

MY KC/Balance Shadow approves of these changes. Please make him unstoppable.

For sage/sorc. BW can obviously code them individually, seeing that an assassin can tick for +2K. If you go above 1,4K in PvP as a sage/sorc you're up against a really undergeared opponent (read: sorc/sage). Edited November 8, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Ahebish]

Exactly...

 

Dopes just don't get it.

 

Maybe if you guys quit exploiting bubble stun and stacking groups with at least 3 sorcs/sages all bubble stun spec'd and telling your smash sentinels and guardians to remove the buff to force it to pop prematurely while it barely sracthes the surface of resolve in ranked wz's... We MIGHT take you guys more seriously.

 

Until then I'll just chalk it up as a L2P issue you clothies haven't ironed out yet since launch after the first concealment nerf.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Ahebish

[Litros]

If we don't have CC, we can actually play PvP and may the best player wins (not the best CCer wins)

[TUXs]

CC's are fine...in general. The problem is, SWTOR has FAR too freaking many and the tool they build to limit them (Resolve) works for **edit**!

[criminalheretic]

Burst: Probably the lowest in the game

Survivability: By far the lowest in the game. And no, I'm not counting having to run away as some form of survivability perk. That's like saying that lingering in the back or staying in the spawn is an ability.

Sustained dps: Ok, a bunch of other ac'es can match it.

Utility: Hybrids have bubble, pure specs have nothing. Are you going to bring up pull? It's far better to have leap. Not to mention that a sorc won't last more than 3 secs on a ledge in Huttball against a good team.

 

But hey, I'm willing to hear about the things you think sorc is better than other classes at.

 

Burst: Not as bad as you think it is. On par with PTs and Maras? No, I'll concede that. But while they don't get a 8k lolsmash, a double ticking Telekinetic Throw, on a target with Weaken mind and Mind Crush ticking away, with Force supression, is a little bit more than "sustained" dps.

Survivability: Whether you want to "count" them or not, lingering in the back and running away ARE part of a Sage's survivability. I try to spend ALL MATCH lingering in the back. PTs can only do it sporadically, and Maras cant do it at all. Snipers can, but they are even less mobile, as they have to deal with a cover machanic that 1/2 the time sends them rolling to some random location instead of parking where they are when they hit the button. (of course they actually get the benefits of being in cover)

Sustained DPS: You said it yourself. A bunch of other ACs can match it. Which means it matches a bunch of other ACs...

Utility: Not as good as a Sin, but better than a Mara. Just because something is Hybrid doesnt make it invalid. And if classes with a KB have a hard time lasting 3 seconds on a ledge, well that's a L2P issue.

 

Better than other classes? I won't commit to that. But I do as much dips on my Sage as I do my Mara, and I die about the same amount of times. I just have to play them differently. When someone is in my face on my Mara, I expect to win. When someone is in my Sage's face, I expect to die. But I spend a LOT more time with multiple people in my face on my Mara than my Sage.

 

All that to say... Whether or not CC is fair isn't really the issue, the issue is whether or not it is ANNOYING every body who queues up. I would say yes, yes it is. Making everyone race to paint a wall with a toothpick is "fair", it just doesn't sound like a very fun game.

 

Since I have no issue with running away from the big mean melee dps, Id settle for force speed lasting a little bit longer, so we could actually get out of leaping range. Or even if it dropped target when we hit it, so they would at least have to re-target us before pressing the one button that negates the fact that we just tried to create range.

Edited November 8, 2012 by criminalheretic

[criminalheretic]

If we don't have CC, we can actually play PvP and may the best player wins (not the best CCer wins)

 

That doesnt really make sense...

 

Either way you are just trying to press a 'better' button combination, faster than another person.

[MidichIorian]

Burst: Not as bad as you think it is. On par with PTs and Maras? No, I'll concede that. But while they don't get a 8k lolsmash, a double ticking Telekinetic Throw, on a target with Weaken mind and Mind Crush ticking away, with Force supression, is a little bit more than "sustained" dps.

Survivability: Whether you want to "count" them or not, lingering in the back and running away ARE part of a Sage's survivability. I try to spend ALL MATCH lingering in the back. PTs can only do it sporadically, and Maras cant do it at all. Snipers can, but they are even less mobile, as they have to deal with a cover machanic that 1/2 the time sends them rolling to some random location instead of parking where they are when they hit the button. (of course they actually get the benefits of being in cover)

Sustained DPS: You said it yourself. A bunch of other ACs can match it. Which means it matches a bunch of other ACs...

Utility: Not as good as a Sin, but better than a Mara. Just because something is Hybrid doesnt make it invalid. And if classes with a KB have a hard time lasting 3 seconds on a ledge, well that's a L2P issue.

 

Better than other classes? I won't commit to that. But I do as much dips on my Sage as I do my Mara, and I die about the same amount of times. I just have to play them differently. When someone is in my face on my Mara, I expect to win. When someone is in my Sage's face, I expect to die. But I spend a LOT more time with multiple people in my face on my Mara than my Sage.

 

All that to say... Whether or not CC is fair isn't really the issue, the issue is whether or not it is ANNOYING every body who queues up. I would say yes, yes it is. Making everyone race to paint a wall with a toothpick is "fair", it just doesn't sound like a very fun game.

 

Since I have no issue with running away from the big mean melee dps, Id settle for force speed lasting a little bit longer, so we could actually get out of leaping range. Or even if it dropped target when we hit it, so they would at least have to re-target us before pressing the one button that negates the fact that we just tried to create range.

The problem is that the other classes can do just as much as us, or better, while playing a key role in the outcome of the game. I'm not denying that sorcs/sages can put out a lot of damage but it requires that someone els is taking all the heat for for them. They are useless in an enviroment where they don't have support whereas other classes can solo guard objectives or single handedly turn games. Just a simple thing such as having a pug spread out on all three nodes on CW can be a game breaker for a sage because he/she won't have enough people around him/her to play the role to its' full potiential. Had sage/sorc had the dps/burst to match the squishiness they would have been able to play a much bigger role. People would consider it to be a risk to jump one instead of how it is now, "free kill". They'd also have the potential to solo guard and quickly take down an incoming enemy.

 

I don't agree with you on burst at all, what you described is more of an accumulative damage that takes severak gcd'es to set up. Other AC'es can build burst on one traget and take it out on the next one alt. always have a real burst ability at their disposal. I can, on my hybrid, burn someone down pretty quickly but the stars have to be aligned for that to happen (instant wrath, DF, MC, instant wrath, LS, proc on CL...still a good deal of gcd'es and none of those abilities will hit for 5K , or even 4K, on a geared opponent)

Edited November 8, 2012 by MidichIorian

[UltimateKrucible]

..... Possibly even pheasants.

 

Them's good eatin!

 

Maybe the problem is TOO MANY OTHER CLASSES CAN CC TOO MUCH. Maybe instead we should nerf everyone else's CC and make Sage/Sorc possibly a dedicated CC AC. If you want to lock someone down, you'll need a Sage/Sorc. I think that would be better balance.

 

This is actually a very good idea - I used to play CoH and there was a dedicated CC class there, and it all worked out fine. Having one in SWTOR PvP could just be the thing to end 'stun wars' - and would add a new level of tactical complexity as - gasp - DPS actually concentrate on protecting their CC'ers and healers instead of rushing into the meatgrinder.

 

That said - what about us Shadows? CC is pretty imortant when you only have light armour between you and a lightsaber.

[TheAlopex]

Them's good eatin!

 

 

 

This is actually a very good idea - I used to play CoH and there was a dedicated CC class there, and it all worked out fine. Having one in SWTOR PvP could just be the thing to end 'stun wars' - and would add a new level of tactical complexity as - gasp - DPS actually concentrate on protecting their CC'ers and healers instead of rushing into the meatgrinder.

 

That said - what about us Shadows? CC is pretty imortant when you only have light armour between you and a lightsaber.

 

I miss my Ice/Ice Controller...

 

Indeed, I am also a graduate of the CoH School of More than Just Three Roles in an MMO. CC'ing, imo, is a role all on its own, and a class should exist to specialize in it. You can tell BW doesn't get it by looking at their "Roles" forum.

 

And it's not like Shadows would LOSE their CC's, or that they'd become totally useless, they'd just be far less effective than a Sorc/Sage, and probably less effective than they currently are. Think Ice/Ice Blaster vs Ice/Ice Controller. The Blaster still had plenty of CC available to it, but damage was its main thing and it never matched a Troller in the CC department. But it could use some of it to support others or increase it's survivability.

 

I pondered that if all other CCs in the game gave much more resolve than they currently do, maybe what could happen is that the Sage/Sorc CC tree would have a 31 point talent allowing their CC's to trigger no resolve (key word: trigger. If they are already at full resolve, then they will be immune to even a Sage/Sorc CC, encouraging CCs to be used more often by the Sage/Sorc than by the other classes, and encouraging the team to protect their CC'er, because they'll otherwise have very gimped CC and lots of people with full resolve) and work through bosses with immunity in PvE. That would effectively leave everyone's playstyles intact, nerf their CC, and make the Sorc/Sage the dedicated CC'er all at once.

 

I can dream...

Edited November 9, 2012 by TheAlopex

[Gomla]

But hey, I'm willing to hear about the things you think sorc is better than other classes at.

 

Wearing a skirt....

 

Nobody does it better. I salute them for that.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Gomla

[Zeaza]

The problem is the stun bubble can be cast on the whole team constantly and the increase of sorcs with this spec atm is similar to the increased amount of focus specced juggernauts/guardians

 

you could make the self cast and the team cast 2 different abilties, with abit longer CD on the team cast one

( and team cast abiltiy does not work on yourself)

Edited November 10, 2012 by Zeaza