Way TOR was written

[Stradlin]

It never stops to amaze me why and how EA spend so much money and effort on full voice acting and at same time displayed absolutely no effort or ambition at all when it comes to writing and character development.

 

At least good 80% of all dialogue you will ever encounter is of utterly forgettable typical vanilla WoW quest logs read out loud. Quality this is done with is well and good.. but really, it is such a small cage for the writer to live. Writer has only so much room to make something awesome out of " gather 10 droid arses"

 

Vast majority of characters you ever encounter are severly lacking in character. It is very rare to encounter anyone who'd have any personality to speak of. Part of this has to do with their oddball decision to introduce like five million NPCs. Generally speaking typical NPC gets very little " screen time" and whatever little he gets is spend on " i need droid arses. there are some in north. go pick them up. may force be with you" - drivel. If you must have 100 quests in planet Y, why is it you have some..33-50 NPCs giving these quests? So many different faces,none of them has enough time to establish any depth.

 

It is unsettling how much better The Secret World does in this regard. Ultimately, the structure is similar. You have tons of NPCs giving tons of quests. Player does the quests. Player moves on. Yet, TSW NPCs display much more personality..they are so much more alive. They give a very credible illusion of being NPCs with worries, fears and lives of their own. They are not NPCs who stand there waiting for player to click them so they can speak about gathering droid arses. This is mostly because in TSW, main story of the area, personality and character of..characters always comes first. Quest descriptions come last. TSW's approach to briefing player about quests is much more..abstract; questgiver NPC doesn't exist there to read you a quest log.

 

Meanwhile, Bioware chose to sick with typical quest log approach when it comes to what a typical NPC has to say. Somewhere very early on they decided every single NPC - MUST - tell player about how droids have arses, how he needs to have these droid arses, how there are some arses available up north and how it'd be great if player went to pick the said arses up. Game mechanics present make all of this dialogue completely unnecessary, if not unwelcome; Once you've enjoyed some 90 secs of dialogue about where's and hows of droid arses, the quest pops in your log. You get friendly big arrow pointing straight to the said droid arses. Finding the quest location or figuring out what to do or what to pick up once you find your way there is never part of the game, so to speak. It is not among the challenges or..aspects TOR presents to player. With this in mind, why is it necessary to sacrifice virtually all of quest NPCs screen time for explaining all this to player? If map guides player to quest location and various tooltips+minimap tells player exactly what to pick up, why does all this have to be EXPLAINED and TOLD to player in such nauseating detail.

 

If you go with arrows and pointers leading straight to quest zones shown in map, quest logs and quest related dialogue itself should be way more abstract, way beyond the scope of the actiual quest. That 90 sec screentime of an invidual NPC could be used for plot advancement or building of much needed character.

 

Class storylines themselves have some good moments here and there. At least companion-> player interaction dodges the bullet described above almost always. Sadly this vanishes in sea of dialogue about droid arses.

 

Imagine opening scene of Pulp Fiction where Jackson and Travolta spend all of their time speaking about shotguns in truck of the car. Once that is covered they speak of where the right appartment is, how to get there, how many people are inside and how they need to be extra careful about it all. No character development, no feet massages, no trips to Amsterdam. That's TOR dialogue for you.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Stradlin

[Alec_Fortescue]

Only thing I remember from my story is the bit when I threaten the thugs to eat them... ^^ Edited October 31, 2012 by Alec_Fortescue

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Don't know about 'forgettable'. I get a good chuckle out of the dialog of my smuggler

[sehuncara]

Where do I find the 'Droid arse ' quest? I must've missed that

[Gomla]

Don't know about 'forgettable'. I get a good chuckle out of the dialog of my smuggler

 

I get a giggle out of some of the lines as well.

 

But I do see his point.

 

I can only speel off a few lines that I remember and I can't remember much of the conversations from side quests.

[Kendaric]

Don't know about 'forgettable'. I get a good chuckle out of the dialog of my smuggler

 

Those are usually part of the story or companion quests though. The side quests are, in many cases, indeed forgettable.

[Korusus]

I agree in so much as the side quests are boring and a waste of voice actor talent. I disagree that every side-quest NPC has to be memorable. They are meant to be forgettable, the story focus is on the planet and class stories which are far better and more personable than anything in TSW.

 

Also, TSW starts to fall apart after Kingsmouth, don't expect that same level of NPC depth throughout the entire game.

 

If anything I wish BioWare would abandon the side-quest voice acting and divert all those resources into making new, bigger, better class/planet stories.

[Cross_Fade]

If they spent all sorts of time making side quests spectacular no one would worry about the class story, the main quest.

 

That is where we need to see improvements. Make your characters different by the end. I would really like to see the effect of the story on my character. Maybe some grow tired and weary of fighting a war, or some relish it and search for the fight.

I also think major points should have a greater effect. After you complete chapter one your choices will change your character's personality in a way to reflect those choices. Say a jedi, that has chosen multiple dark side choices like to kill many Sith bosses along the way is altered in his views. He strays farther away from the Jedi code, order and their "ways". This can been seen in their conversations and which option 1,2,or 3 you select.

 

Just my opinion though.

[errant_knight]

I completely disagree with the op. Not only did I enjoy the class stories immensely, but I never found the side quests to be grindy, levelling with ease and feeling that it came naturally from the story and that my characters had good reasons to do the things they do. The conversations are interesting, the choices are compelling and sometimes difficult--even the random conversations overheard in spaceports and the like still amuse. It's like I played a different game than the one described here. Of course, I don't mind fetching those droid arses because even after a year, I still really enjoy the combat. Edited October 31, 2012 by errant_knight

[Macheath]

Game mechanics present make all of this dialogue completely unnecessary, if not unwelcome; Once you've enjoyed some 90 secs of dialogue about where's and hows of droid arses, the quest pops in your log. You get friendly big arrow pointing straight to the said droid arses. Finding the quest location or figuring out what to do or what to pick up once you find your way there is never part of the game, so to speak. It is not among the challenges or..aspects TOR presents to player. With this in mind, why is it necessary to sacrifice virtually all of quest NPCs screen time for explaining all this to player? If map guides player to quest location and various tooltips+minimap tells player exactly what to pick up, why does all this have to be EXPLAINED and TOLD to player in such nauseating detail.

 

If you go with arrows and pointers leading straight to quest zones shown in map, quest logs and quest related dialogue itself should be way more abstract, way beyond the scope of the actiual quest. That 90 sec screentime of an invidual NPC could be used for plot advancement or building of much needed character.

 

You raise a very good point, here. BioWare has hundreds of hours of dialogue, but a good chunk of it is just NPCs giving the player direction. We have the quest log, HUD quest tracker, and mini-map directions to lay all that out for us. The dialogue scenes could have been a chance to make the world feel alive, but instead are largely spent in a redundant effort.

 

It's too late, obviously, to change how BioWare wrote their current quests. However, in the future, they would be served well by placing more focus on NPC character development during dialogue scenes, rather than unnecessarily reiterating the nuts and bolts of the quest.

 

-Macheath.

[simplius]

yup,,too much story,,too little game

 

and some of those stories are pretty bad too,,like the trooper on coruscant:

 

there are some citizens IN A LOCKED ROOM,,one of them MAY be infected

 

wouldnt the natural thing be to just for reinforcements and specialists?,,but not here

[Siorac]

There are lots of interesting/funny/memorable characters in the planet stories and class stories. Thana Vesh on Taris to name but one.

 

Some sidequests' NPCs are very forgettable, yes, but the game has tons of quests. It's impossible and probably counter-productive to even attempt to make each and every one of them unique and memorable.

[chuixupu]

Most of the main storylne quests weren't all that engaging, but I loved the Imperial Agent class quest so much I played through it 3 times. I can tell you the names of every NPC I encountered in it and quote you quite a few lines.

Definitely one of the most fun story-driven game experiences I've had.

I enjoyed most of the other class quests as well, I think were just not my kind of archetype.

 

I was not a fan of TSW.

Edited October 31, 2012 by chuixupu

[Hiniba]

I don't expect every conversation I have in my life to be a life changing moment where I have to define my character based on morally grey choices. Sometimes a kid needs saved from a well, it's not a complex plot and shouldn't be.

I almost find it pretentious when people try to force in so much depth, intrigue and conflict in every sentence it's almost vomit worthy.

There's a lot of quests where the dialogue/plot is very interesting and gets me conflicted with myself or sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation.

You're right not every quest, conversation is like that. A soldier in the military sometimes just has to patrol, or kill some guys (in video games at least). A jedi sometimes has to just help out the locals with their mundane problems.

There's a difference between bad ***/interesting and being a drama queen turning every mole hill in life into this big dilemma.

[arunav]

It's unclear why it was decided to go this path, especially when it comes to making new content. Perhaps it was assumed SWTOR would be a runaway success.

 

I think, alongside others, the game would have been much better served with an emphasis on story and planet quests as voiced, and the rest being a mix of text based communication and terminals at the various planetary hubs. This way, it would have opened up the possibility to speak with NPCs anywhere they are found.

 

As a longtime RPG player, including KOTOR, it is not at all ideal that you never get to interact with random NPCs, only hearing one voiced conversation occasionally at a quest hub. The chatter from your companions is not nearly enough to make up for not being able to communicate with the environment.

 

Can they still make this change? I suppose if text dialogue were added to 1--50, non-quest giving NPCs, it could possibly make sense going forward. This would be a lot of revision, however. I know I'd prefer this if it meant more questing content is released.

 

At the end of the day, this is another thread from fans who would really like the game to succeed but see its limitations, this being an important one. I still have hope that the cash shop can turn the game around for the better, and we'll see more story content beyond Makeb.

 

If not, I'm not sure the game has lasting appeal, even for those who have stuck around this long. There are only so many alts one can level and enjoy, and PvP is stale at 50 with its gear gap and a lack of variety in maps.

 

Daniel Erickson used to pitch the "never-ending RPG" in interviews. Waiting a year or more for 1 new planetary questline doesn't cut it.

Edited October 31, 2012 by arunav

[amnie]

I get a giggle out of some of the lines as well.

 

But I do see his point.

 

I can only speel off a few lines that I remember and I can't remember much of the conversations from side quests.

 

I can hardly remember most conversations with my parents, either. I remember lines and bits and pieces and the general topic, but the actual conversations? nope. guess there's no point in having voiced over conversations with your parents.

[Stradlin]

I agree in so much as the side quests are boring and a waste of voice actor talent. I disagree that every side-quest NPC has to be memorable. They are meant to be forgettable, the story focus is on the planet and class stories which are far better and more personable than anything in TSW.

 

Also, TSW starts to fall apart after Kingsmouth, don't expect that same level of NPC depth throughout the entire game.

 

If anything I wish BioWare would abandon the side-quest voice acting and divert all those resources into making new, bigger, better class/planet stories.

 

I don't really agree planet stories were a very different matter. Planetary main quests have little more longevity in them, more story and story development. Yet, ultimately those too are just 4-5 different forgettable quest givers giving you quests and spending most of their time explaining about them droid arses. Everybody in TOR is speaking about trees and how to cut em, very few ever stop to to shoot the breeze about the forest for/with PC.

 

Every single word about quest objective and how to get there is complete waste of time and money when game mechanics are there to tell you exactly where to go and what to do. The screen time of individual NPC should have been used in building some character to the said NPC. That and more abstract, story-aligned chatter about the overall situation or whatnot. Much more atmospheric solution.

 

Significant majority of dialogue in TOR has absolutely no real reason to exist at all. It is creepy and depressing, considering the whole 200-500 millions spend and all. It suffocates the portions of dialogue that are actually interesting.

 

Sadly this isn't exactly an issue that could be fixed with patch. In an event they will ever record more voice acting in significant quantities though, we hopefully see a bit saner approach to it.

 

Edit, Oops looks like I just retyped Macheath's post with more typoes:P

Edited October 31, 2012 by Stradlin

[VegaPhone]

I agree there should be some improvement with side quests.

 

Directions of quests can be very simple and focus more on NPC character development. Then expect people to read in more details of the quest. For example if someone is an explorer, and the quest is about finding some treasure, then there are some detailed notes to find that treasure, and they can read about it.

 

Have some quests which are not activated by a quest giver but occurring in the area, and only requires interaction. Dynamic events or public quests.

 

Have NPC bounties/player made content possibly.

 

Overall have less NPC quests from random strangers. Have dynamic events. Focus more on chain quests/world arcs and class story.

 

And have more complex quests with puzzles. Maybe heroics that have random map generators with different puzzles of platforming or avoiding alarm systems. An alarm system can bring waves of intruders and introducing escape tactics with different maps randomized.

 

Also my problem with NPC quests is that they become too many in a certain area, but also necessary for the solo player. They make a person stay in a certain area for too long, and this is why with less NPC quests and more dynamic events/heroics/bosses in the open world (bounty system on wanted criminals) they will need areas to be more horizontal lvling friendly. So a person can go to any place on a planet to do their non class quests if they wanted to.

 

And adding more life to the atmosphere. Weather effects, more music, Day/night cycle, NPC routine movement that change with day/night cycle.

[flyersfan]

I blame the MMO format. The game puts more emphasis on going to the Fleet to "socialise" than expanding on characters because that is a solitary venture. BioWare Austin didn't want that to happen, so you don't get the writing and character development that you want.

[JediNg]

I don't expect every conversation I have in my life to be a life changing moment where I have to define my character based on morally grey choices. Sometimes a kid needs saved from a well, it's not a complex plot and shouldn't be.

I almost find it pretentious when people try to force in so much depth, intrigue and conflict in every sentence it's almost vomit worthy.

There's a lot of quests where the dialogue/plot is very interesting and gets me conflicted with myself or sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation.

You're right not every quest, conversation is like that. A soldier in the military sometimes just has to patrol, or kill some guys (in video games at least). A jedi sometimes has to just help out the locals with their mundane problems.

There's a difference between bad ***/interesting and being a drama queen turning every mole hill in life into this big dilemma.

 

Agreed.

[Gomla]

I can hardly remember most conversations with my parents, either. I remember lines and bits and pieces and the general topic, but the actual conversations? nope. guess there's no point in having voiced over conversations with your parents.

 

The conversations with your parents didn't cost millions that could have been spent on the plumbing or or re-decorating your house.

 

The point that seems to have wooshed right over you is the side quests didn't need all that money spending on voice actors. They are easily forgotten and quite a few people just space bar through them anyway. Text and terminal would have worked just as well for what they are.

 

The story quests and planet quests are fine but the mundane fetch/kill quests just didn't need the cut scenes.

[JediNg]

The conversations with your parents didn't cost millions that could have been spent on the plumbing or or re-decorating your house.

 

The point that seems to have wooshed right over you is the side quests didn't need all that money spending on voice actors. They are easily forgotten and quite a few people just space bar through them anyway. Text and terminal would have worked just as well for what they are.

The story quests and planet quests are fine but the mundane fetch/kill quests just didn't need the cut scenes.

 

I disagree. I would not have been as invested in the game if all of the 'side' missions were just text and terminal. Immersion factor would have been lost and I definitely would have been disinclined to roll as many alts as I currently have.

[chuixupu]

The conversations with your parents didn't cost millions that could have been spent on the plumbing or or re-decorating your house.

 

The point that seems to have wooshed right over you is the side quests didn't need all that money spending on voice actors. They are easily forgotten and quite a few people just space bar through them anyway. Text and terminal would have worked just as well for what they are.

 

The story quests and planet quests are fine but the mundane fetch/kill quests just didn't need the cut scenes.

 

First of all, I do somewhat agree that they didn't need to make every side quest a conversation choice.

 

However, I don't think it works the way you are thinking.

VOs that are in reoccurring roles are under contract and receive annual salaries. It's not like they're being pulled into the studio to do the quests in order and getting paid by the hour. They contracted them, they might as well use them as much as possible.

 

How much did they spend on that aspect? Do you know of any source? From what I've read about VO's in video games, most don't really get paid anything spectacular, even the really well known ones. There are certain individuals who do, but I don't think any of the actors in SWTOR are among them.

 

Lastly, again, this is a Bioware game, and this is simply what they do and what they're known for.

[IndigoHawk]

I too wish SWTOR had fewer one-quest NPCs and more NPCs that had arcs. But give some credit. Some NPCs reappeared multiple times, such as that one Sith (I forget her name) who keeps showing up and talking smack about how she's going to do a better job than you ... and then getting captured and in over her head.

 

Some of the one-shot NPCs stood out, but the NPC quests would have been so much better if more of them had arcs. I feel like SWTOR didn't have time to write in those kind of arcs and ended up voicing WoW quests. So ... SWTOR broke the mould sometimes but failed frequently.

 

It's one of the reasons why I wish that the legacy xp boosts were significant enough that I could skip all the planetary quests and just do the class quests. The class quests generally have more interesting writing, and it's pretty boring to do the inferior planet quests over and over. Some of the plant arcs aren't bad, but the trash quests are usually terrible ... and you're right, without personality.

[Korusus]

It's one of the reasons why I wish that the legacy xp boosts were significant enough that I could skip all the planetary quests and just do the class quests. The class quests generally have more interesting writing, and it's pretty boring to do the inferior planet quests over and over. Some of the plant arcs aren't bad, but the trash quests are usually terrible ... and you're right, without personality.

 

Agreed. I already find myself rerolling the same characters just to experience the stories over again and make new choices and see things differently...but the side quests sure do make it difficult to not get burned out extremely fast. If only we could play and replay the 8 class stories without having to bother with the side quests, I'be be a lifetime subscriber.