Macheath Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 One thing needs to be made clear, here. There is no PvP requirement. There is a requirement to enter a zone in which players can freely kill each other. You are not forced to participate in PvP, simply enter a PvP enabled zone. That is not, in itself, PvP content. You might have a case if the requirement was to kill x players, or join x warzones. But then, of course, an equal but opposite argument could be made against the raid requirement, since many PvPers have no interest in raiding, nor PvE of any kind. If we are going to start catering to specific focus groups, what about the solo players, who have no wish to raid or PvP? HK-51 is a companion, after all, which most directly impacts the niche of players who do not participate in PvP or raids, where companions cannot be used. This game features solo PvE, group PvE, open-world PvP, and instanced PvP. And even if this quest did require participation in all of these gameplay aspects -which it does not- there would be no design flaw, here. There could be a requirement to kill x players, or join x warzones, and that would be a perfectly valid quest design. This quest chain would then simply be one line of quests which also happened to have a PvP requirement on top of the PvE requirements (and again I stress, there is no actual PvP requirement.) If every quest required participation in all aspects of gameplay, that would be poor design, because all players would then be forced to participate in gameplay aspects they didn't enjoy in order to accomplish anything at all. But this is just one quest, and there is nothing objectively wrong with it. -Macheath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambunctious Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 One thing needs to be made clear, here. There is no PvP requirement. There is a requirement to enter a zone in which players can freely kill each other. You are not forced to participate in PvP, simply enter a PvP enabled zone. That is not, in itself, PvP content. You might have a case if the requirement was to kill x players, or join x warzones. But then, of course, an equal but opposite argument could be made against the raid requirement, since many PvPers have no interest in raiding, nor PvE of any kind. If we are going to start catering to specific focus groups, what about the solo players, who have no wish to raid or PvP? HK-51 is a companion, after all, which most directly impacts the niche of players who do not participate in PvP or raids, where companions cannot be used. This game features solo PvE, group PvE, open-world PvP, and instanced PvP. And even if this quest did require participation in all of these gameplay aspects -which it does not- there would be no design flaw, here. There could be a requirement to kill x players, or join x warzones, and that would be a perfectly valid quest design. This quest chain would then simply be one line of quests which also happened to have a PvP requirement on top of the PvE requirements (and again I stress, there is no actual PvP requirement.) If every quest required participation in all aspects of gameplay, that would be poor design, because all players would then be forced to participate in gameplay aspects they didn't enjoy in order to accomplish anything at all. But this is just one quest, and there is nothing objectively wrong with it. -Macheath. If you are required to enter a certain zone, and be auto flagged for pvp, then they're making pvp a requirement. Which opens up the possibility of pvp guilds, decked out in full pvp armor, slaughtering all those people in pve gear, and who really don't want to pvp. Which, is the majority of people on pve servers. I have no problem slapping people around if they attack me, but those people who have no desire to pvp should not have to pvp. They just need to put their vendor in a place where you won't get flagged, or make it a sanctuary around the vendor.. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielHex Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Which, is the majority of people on pve servers. You're saying the majority of people on the largest servers in the game are VR1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 If you are required to enter a certain zone, and be auto flagged for pvp, then they're making pvp a requirement. Which opens up the possibility of pvp guilds, decked out in full pvp armor, slaughtering all those people in pve gear, and who really don't want to pvp. Which, is the majority of people on pve servers. I have no problem slapping people around if they attack me, but those people who have no desire to pvp should not have to pvp. They just need to put their vendor in a place where you won't get flagged, or make it a sanctuary around the vendor.. Problem solved. Then they dont need to do the quest. Its that simple. What you suggest is to simply mail an item to everyone. The quest is easy enough as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revanchis Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Not when its in the middle of an open PVP zone. Yes, blocking people from getting it is griefing, period. This is why they shouldn't have put it there to begin with. There's already a bunch of people talking about how they're going to go out there to stop others from getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vian Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 OK I read the first few pages of this thread and just got annoyed with it. First of SPOILER ALERT is what this thread starts as. Second. Whining PVE is what is driving half the game population away. You whine so much that Bioware tries to keep you PVE people happy that they neglect the PVP side of the game and any time they try to add anything you just whine more. You got that, everyone? If we voice concerns this person doesn't like or agree to, we're "ruining" the game. Despite the fact that the PvE content *is* the game. You don't have to play even one WZ (or FP, or space mission) to get the entire story. Also, we're "whining". Presumably s/he, on the other hand, is just voicing an opinion. If you are too *********** scared that some other player is going to shot at you then too bad. I have always believed in fair play and leaving others alone but when someone get all self righteous and thinks they shouldn't have to subject them selves to certain things then that makes me want to camp that PVP location. You got that, everyone? Not that the OP would ever do it him-or-herself, heaven forbid, but if we express our concerns, we're actually causing the griefing by saying anything ("gee, why are you making me hit you?"), and have therefore bought it on ourselves. Also, choosing to play PvE isn't a mere preference, it's cowardly and we deserve to be ganked and griefed, because of Reasons. Presumably, hanging around near the vendor with 20 of your mates and thumping anyone who comes into range isn't cowardly, also because of Reasons. Bioware Thank you for adding content to the Outlaws Den. Please add more so there can be a reason for open world PVP. One more thing can you make the outlaws den an Instance so only 20 of 30 from each side can go into the zone. This may keep the Camping to a minimum. I'm not against PvP, more PvP or open PvP. Knock yourselves --and each other-- out. May the Owtlaws' Den become a 24/7 wonderland of fragging for you and yours. But based on your own arguments above, I wouldn't choose to spend any time in an environment where your ideas held much sway. And if Bioware's trying to up the numbers of PvP? I really can't see this doing it. There'll be a bit of OW PvP among established players as people get HK, and then people will drift off and do other things. People who aren't experienced in (or inclined to) PvP? They'll wander in, choose to fight or not, get thumped, get rezzed, rinse and repeat till they get to the vendor, get the parts, think "well, that was annoying - glad I don't make a habit of it" and off they'll go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Yes, blocking people from getting it is griefing, period. This is why they shouldn't have put it there to begin with. There's already a bunch of people talking about how they're going to go out there to stop others from getting it. No, its not. They arent blocking anything. Fight them or dont go there. Its that simple. Its an open pvp zone. You know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vian Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 No, its not. They arent blocking anything. Fight them or dont go there. Its that simple. Its an open pvp zone. You know this. You're just being silly. It doesn't matter what zone it happens in, standing between someone and their goal - trying to prevent them from going where they want to go - *is* blocking them. If you come to my house, and I stand between you and the door and won't let you leave, I'm blocking you. Even though it's my house. Yes, it's a PvP zone. That means PvP can happen there. It doesn't mean everyone who goes there is looking for a fight. Some people are just looking for parts. And if you choose to stand between them and the parts, You. Are. Blocking. Them. You might think you have a perfect right to do so; there are those who will disagree. But don't be disingenuous about what you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 You're just being silly. It doesn't matter what zone it happens in, standing between someone and their goal - trying to prevent them from going where they want to go - *is* blocking them. If you come to my house, and I stand between you and the door and won't let you leave, I'm blocking you. Even though it's my house. Yes, it's a PvP zone. That means PvP can happen there. It doesn't mean everyone who goes there is looking for a fight. Some people are just looking for parts. And if you choose to stand between them and the parts, You. Are. Blocking. Them. You might think you have a perfect right to do so; there are those who will disagree. But don't be disingenuous about what you're doing. Its a PVP zone. That means its PVP. Do you know what PVP means? Think of it from a RP stand point if you want. If you were a jedi and I was a sith and your lightsabre was behind me....should I just let you go get it? No, PVP is player versus player. If a player wants to kill you in a PVP zone then he has every right to whether you want to fight or not. That is not griefing sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thlaylie Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) It's basically the carrot on a stick trick to get some fresh meat for the PvP crowd. I always wondered if PvP is such a great thing why do I need to be lured into it? Instead of this PvP requirement they should just make two ways to get HK. One through PvP where people get to fight for every inch. AND one for PvE people with multiple planets and hardships to experience except PvP. Then everyone is Happy, or should be. Of course there will be griefers upset they can't ruin everyone else's game, but PvP is for skilled players to challenge each other, not for griefers, right? Edited November 4, 2012 by Thlaylie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macheath Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 If you are required to enter a certain zone, and be auto flagged for pvp, then they're making pvp a requirement. Which opens up the possibility of pvp guilds, decked out in full pvp armor, slaughtering all those people in pve gear, and who really don't want to pvp. Which, is the majority of people on pve servers. I have no problem slapping people around if they attack me, but those people who have no desire to pvp should not have to pvp. They just need to put their vendor in a place where you won't get flagged, or make it a sanctuary around the vendor.. Problem solved. I must reiterate that there is no PvP requirement. Just like interacting with any vendor on a PvP server is not PvP. You are in a PvP zone, but are not required to kill other players. It is entirely possible to finish the quest without encountering a player from the opposing faction, there is no requirement that you successfully kill other players, and therefore no PvP is required of you at all. If there happens to be enemy players in the area, you could always come back later. You cannot say this about, for example, the group PvE requirement, where you are literally forced to group with other players in order to complete "hardmode" content. This is not optional, there is no "chance of group PvE occurring." You are forced into it. (And may I just interject, here, that I have no problem with the group PvE aspect of the quest, nor any other aspect of gameplay featured in this quest line. I am simply pointing out the difference between what the quoted person is claiming to be "forced" PvP, and actual forced content participation.) And even if there were such a PvP requirement, that does not constitute poor quest design. There is nothing -and I must emphasize nothing- wrong with a quest requiring you to PvP. The notion is absurd, as PvP is a major aspect of the game engaged in by a significant portion of the player base. And furthermore, if that were true, if the addition of a PvP requirement was indicative of poor quest design, then we must also say that the addition of a group PvE requirement is poor design; we must say that the "puzzle solving" aspect of the quest is of poor design, because certain players do not like that aspect of ToR (ie., the players who complain about datacron locations); we must concede also that the requirement of creating a second character of the opposing faction is of poor design, because many players take interest in neither creating alt characters, nor playing on opposing factions. Do you see the absurdity of your statement? PvP is just as much a part of SW:ToR as any of these other aspects; I would say more so, if we are judging importance based on such factors as the percentage of player participation, and impact on end-game. You would so casually throw a large number of players under the bus by keeping the group PvE requirement, which forces PvPers and soloers alike (who number more than the raiders/dungeon runners) to partake in hardmode end-game content? Or the alt requirement, which forces a player to spend hours of their time playing a character they may or may not ever use again? But, as soon as there's a possibility -not a guarantee, just a chance- of PvP occurring, then you can no longer remain silent. If you did relocate the vendor to an area where PvP was not enabled, what then? How do PvPers acquire HK? How do soloers acquire HK? How do casual players without a level 50 character acquire HK? I would argue that the players who are against this so-called "PvP requirement" are not arguing in favor of any sort of equal availability of HK-51 to all players regardless of their gameplay preference, as they claim to be; but rather are cherry-picking the one aspect of the quest which they do not personally look favorably upon. -Macheath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thlaylie Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Maybe we will be lucky and there will be large groups of "Anti-Griefers" waiting in the pick up areas to deal with those with less kind natures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 You mean like the way they make pvpers PvE to get him? Quoted for truth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vian Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Its a PVP zone. That means its PVP. Do you know what PVP means? Think of it from a RP stand point if you want. If you were a jedi and I was a sith and your lightsabre was behind me....should I just let you go get it? No, PVP is player versus player. If a player wants to kill you in a PVP zone then he has every right to whether you want to fight or not. That is not griefing sorry. I suspect the difference between our viewpoints is I see the PvP zones as a place where PvP can happen, whereas you see them as a place where PvP MUST happen. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. At least you aren't going to argue it's not blocking to physically interpose yourself between someone and their goal, so I suppose we'll call that progress. If I were a Jedi and you were a Sith, I'd be concentrating on what I was there for - I wouldn't give three-fifths of a metric d@mn about you. And if you started a fight despite supreme lack of inclinationon my part, it'd be bloody annoying. And if you were any kind of decent Sith, you'd be seeking out worthy battles with mighty foes, instead of hanging about hoping someone you could beat would pass by. And me, in my piecemeal PvE purples? Sure you'd beat me. Because I wouldn't raise my blade. There is no Death, there is the Rezz. Edited for typos. Edited November 5, 2012 by vian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 No, its not. They arent blocking anything. Fight them or dont go there. Its that simple. Its an open pvp zone. You know this. Hmm let us guess what you'll be doing there when the vendor pops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torcouff Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Well if we are going to force PVE players into a open world PVP zone, then why not just add a part to HM- TFB also i mean why not makes sense right ? There's some droids in there it would totally fit the story to have parts only available inside. It would stir up the RAIDING part of the game! And there would be all these new people that want to raid all of a sudden. If someone really wants to get HK they will just get a pug together and raid, or not participate in the new content. There needs to be a requirement for EVERY part of this game to be involved for this quest ! I mean its optional may as well make it so people don't even want to bother with this new content. /sarcasm off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerokTalram Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I won't be doing quest if it goes live as is. Cool, can I have your version of HK-51? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerokTalram Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Exactly. Never had the desire to be other ... erm ... people's "content" and if that means no HK for me ... *grrr* where are these greedy suits when you need them? Put this freaking droid in the cartel shop!! I'd pay the equivalent of two months subscription to get this companion if i can avoid the l33t-groupers and pvp- ...erm ... -people! You playing a freaking MMO. If you don't want to be someone else's content, go play a single player game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerokTalram Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Umm yes it is griefing. If another player or players is hindering players from reaching said point constantly its called griefing. I rather have to fight through a ton NPC's than face the arogant PVP epeens. They will sit their and keep on killing the less fortunate. Whats funny is when they get their butt handed to them by a PVE player the first thing they will do is cry nerf. Thats all a PVP knows how to do. According to your definition Huttball is griefing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vian Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 You playing a freaking MMO. If you don't want to be someone else's content, go play a single player game. For some of us, "playing a freaking MMO" means playing with other people, not against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacenHallis Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 For some of us, "playing a freaking MMO" means playing with other people, not against them. Hear hear. But, the "PvP requirement" for this quest is a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerokTalram Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) For some of us, "playing a freaking MMO" means playing with other people, not against them. The poster said that she didn't want to be other people's content. Thus if you group up with someone to do a flashpoint, you are still someone else's content. Edited November 5, 2012 by JerokTalram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macheath Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Well if we are going to force PVE players into a open world PVP zone, then why not just add a part to HM- TFB also i mean why not makes sense right ? There's some droids in there it would totally fit the story to have parts only available inside. It would stir up the RAIDING part of the game! And there would be all these new people that want to raid all of a sudden. If someone really wants to get HK they will just get a pug together and raid, or not participate in the new content. There needs to be a requirement for EVERY part of this game to be involved for this quest ! I mean its optional may as well make it so people don't even want to bother with this new content. /sarcasm off Note, firstly, the difference between scenarios, only one of which is actually "forcing" a certain aspect of gameplay onto the player. In your scenario, you are not only forced to enter a raid/group area, but are actually forced to kill enemies within that area. In the actual scenario presented to us in the HK-51 quest, we are forced to enter a PvP-enabled zone, but at no point are we forced to participate in the killing of players, or the taking of PvP objectives. Thus, there is no PvP requirement. Note, secondly, the ramifications of each scenario. If you are forced to raid, that means you are forced to gather not just a simple group of 4 players, but an entire raid in order to complete your objective. Whereas, not only is there no guarantee of finding players in the Outlaw's Den, but even if you were to meet other players, it may be a situation which you could handle solo, or in a very small group. There is a disproportionate burden placed on the individual player in one of these scenarios. -Macheath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bahdasz Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) OMG. When was the last time anyone ever actually PvPed in Smuggler's Den? Seriously? I've only ever seen about 3 people in there and every time I try to engage them they run. For someone to have to go inside there one time for one minute in the whole time they play is such a non-issue I can't believe there's all this discussion about it. Seriously, it's not like you're being forced to do two war zones every day for a month or something. And what is the worst thing that can happen? You get killed by someone while you're in there? OMG, you have to rez and go in again, whoopie, it's not like they took away your birthday or made you sterile. Get over it. Stop the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Edited November 5, 2012 by bahdasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thlaylie Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 You playing a freaking MMO. If you don't want to be someone else's content, go play a single player game. This is not our fault. I and many others wanted KOTOR III, but got stuck with an MMO and it's resultant baggage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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