Am I in the wrong for not wearing Recruit gear?

[L-RANDLE]

Somewhat on-topic question, how big is deliverance for someone in full WH? I'm asking since I decided to do some offhealing in a warzone yesterday, I was that bored, and had some crits on just below 7K in my BH outfit and with no points in the seer tree.

 

:-)

 

Probably about the same (***cough actually slightly less***cough*cough***)....

[Devilk]

Somewhat on-topic question, how big is deliverance for someone in full WH? I'm asking since I decided to do some offhealing in a warzone yesterday, I was that bored, and had some crits on just below 7K in my BH outfit and with no points in the seer tree.

 

A sage in full war hero posted a video a while back asking people to guess how he healed himself, his deliverence was around 7500. Idk if he was min/maxed for power or whatever to increase his healing though.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Devilk

[L-RANDLE]

A sage in full war hero posted a video a while back asking people to guess how he healed himself, his deliverence was around 7500. Idk if he was min/maxed for power or whatever to increase his healing though.

 

Did he show his spec? Was he heal spec'd?

[DroidDreamer]

To answer your question: Yes.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Heh, interesting points Randal. I'll look into toying around with some gear on my main, see if dropping down a few hundred expertise is offset by some top teir PvE.

 

As for the OP, if you don't atleast go recruit, switch out to BM asap. Once you got some WH, then you can play around with PvE vs. PvP gear.

[L-RANDLE]

To answer your question: Yes.

 

Figured as much... but still if MIDI specd healz his output would probably be slightly higher because healing output diminish is closer to 900 (10%).

[L-RANDLE]

Heh, interesting points Randal. I'll look into toying around with some gear on my main, see if dropping down a few hundred expertise is offset by some top teir PvE.

 

As for the OP, if you don't atleast go recruit, switch out to BM asap. Once you got some WH, then you can play around with PvE vs. PvP gear.

 

I haven't tried this, but maybe before you spend comms. You should use Askmrrobot and SImC.

 

I know SimC don't have a "PvP" caclulation, but you can load PvP gear in, get the DPS/HPS output and multiply it by the corresponding EXP rating. Then do a 100% PvE and see where the numbers fall. It's a rough estimate on potential output, but the rolls are less ambiguous and the specs are identical.

 

I give you 3:1 it will be within 1-2% when you compare same tier sets(WH v BH) in the PvP arena.

Edited October 24, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[DarkSaberMaster]

Naw dude. You are fine in what you have on. Don't let these guys tell you otherwise. You are a great asset to your team. Please don't get recruit gear.

 

By the way. What is your character's name and do you happen to play on The Harbinger? My Pyro PT would like to have a "chat" with you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

get the recruit gear. quit failing your team.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Figured as much... but still if MIDI specd healz his output would probably be slightly higher because healing output diminish is closer to 900 (10%).

 

Idk about DR, but it does seem to climb very poorly (almost 1% per hundred). I'll need to look into my damage reduction value, but since I don't care about high damage boost (going healing specced for ranked) it might be a good investment to focus on HP and Power, since 12% healing boost vs. 10% is peanuts.

 

Thanks for the thoughts, I'll discuss it with my ranked team. See if I can eek out some better healing numbers without dying too much.

[Devilk]

Did he show his spec? Was he heal spec'd?

 

Here's a link to his thread with video, he has salvation on his quickbar so he has at least 31 points in the Seer tree.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=541071&highlight=Heal

Edited October 24, 2012 by Devilk

[L-RANDLE]

@ Dooms

That's why I think healers should hover around 900, you are not getting significantly better heals at that point, which is your job. Tanks might object, but Tanks are eating 50% anyway(assuming ur being guarded), so 65% is peanuts as well let alone the difference between 50% and 52% if you were at 900EXP. I would use SimC just to get an idea of how much of a difference in heals would be versus the loss in mitigation. What I would tell you is you should swap your WH armoring for BH armoring, because the power between PvE versus PvP should be the same when you look at a specific item.

 

@Dev

Well he was heal specd and Midiclor was not. So it shows me that if Midi was heal specd he would be VERY close to the same type of output, all while carrying 0 EXP. That is why I been saying since 1.2 that even though they "buffed" EXP it still is on par with its PvE equiv(only slightly lower) in the PvP arena. And the math backs it up, as you sacrifice an equal amount of main stat for EXP and as EXP gets higher(700) the difference is minor.

[MidichIorian]

@Dev

Well he was heal specd and Midiclor was not. So it shows me that if Midi was heal specd he would be VERY close to the same type of output, all while carrying 0 EXP. That is why I been saying since 1.2 that even though they "buffed" EXP it still is on par with its PvE equiv(only slightly lower) in the PvP arena. And the math backs it up, as you sacrifice an equal amount of main stat for EXP and as EXP gets higher(700) the difference is minor.

I'm using the WH power relics so I have 114 expertise.

 

Speced heals earlier (boredom, had a deliverance on 7,8K btw) and had 400K in a fairly short VS, never healed before and didnt feel comfortable at all. I stayed alive long enough to outheal my team mates, who were wearing pvp gear. Speced back to dps and had 600K on Novare, 260K ahead of closest pvp geared dps team mate. And this was despite solo guarding with a healer for quite some time and in PvE spec (no bubble boosts). I think expetise for sage is broken because I'm not noticing any difference.

 

Are other classes noticing any difference between top PvE gear and full WH? I play in this outfit all the time and it can't be that the majority of enemies are so much worse than myself that PvE gear works. Thinking that would be giving myself way too much credit.

Edited October 25, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Devilk]

@Dev

Well he was heal specd and Midiclor was not. So it shows me that if Midi was heal specd he would be VERY close to the same type of output, all while carrying 0 EXP. That is why I been saying since 1.2 that even though they "buffed" EXP it still is on par with its PvE equiv(only slightly lower) in the PvP arena. And the math backs it up, as you sacrifice an equal amount of main stat for EXP and as EXP gets higher(700) the difference is minor.

 

I don't believe the problem is his healing output, I stated that further up, the problem is zero damage reduction in PvP from expertise while people with expertise get a 20% damage boost against him.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Devilk

[Doomsdaycomes]

@ Dooms

That's why I think healers should hover around 900, you are not getting significantly better heals at that point, which is your job. Tanks might object, but Tanks are eating 50% anyway(assuming ur being guarded), so 65% is peanuts as well let alone the difference between 50% and 52% if you were at 900EXP. I would use SimC just to get an idea of how much of a difference in heals would be versus the loss in mitigation. What I would tell you is you should swap your WH armoring for BH armoring, because the power between PvE versus PvP should be the same when you look at a specific item.

 

Been fooling around on MR. Robot and I'm not exactly sure of the results.

 

Full Aug-WH Medic (including a custom belt/bracers):

 

Expertise:1390

PVP DMg Reduction: 20%

PvP Heal Boost: 14%

Bonus Healing: 602

Health: 19716

 

Aug-BH/Aug-WH mix:

 

Expterise: 942

PvP DMG Reduction: 16%

PvP Heal Boost; 10.4%

Bonus Healing: 637

Health: 20711

 

Crit/Alacrity/Surging... are all pretty similiar. Armor is actually 15 points higher in the Mixed set. However... I'm not sure the trade of 4% reduction for 1,000 hp is worth it. I'm not sure how much 35 pts in bonus healing translates into.

 

As a side note, I think if I had used Dreadguard/Hazmat gear it would be acceptable, but I'm still a little iffy on the BH/WH mix, especially if it means losing the WH set bonuses are. Your thoughts?

[Masarko]

I see healers down at 1k Expertise in their top gear, Myself I run with 1,2k.

 

But before you ask the forums if you should get recruit gear, ask yourself this: How much of your 300k is self healing?

[warultima]

My guildie just scored a 9972 smash on someone with no expertise full Campaign sith sorc with almost 23k hp.

[TheRampage]

Maybe

 

Why maybe? Because answer is in "with who do you do WZs"? I always pvped with my sentinel, didnt knew what do to with tank in pvp. So when I started with main, I had top pve gear on. And I asked same question as you. I tried recruit on me and saw my stats going south. So i stayed on pve and just put bm pieces in as i would grind for it. And pvped with sage or smuggler healer m8 from guild (most important part, but not in terms they healed me and only me, just that I had healer who could save me when low, and when u have high HP - people ignore you)

 

I would say my win ratio that week was around 90%, I grinded BM gear in couple of days. Would I die if 6 people focus me? Ofc. But, I died agains 6 people now, and I'm full wh...

 

In pugs, it won't make difference. Stick to tank, stay little behind, you will do good. If you have top pve gear. If not, it isnt worth it. But if you do? Sage healer, around 20k hp. My first bet would be top wz gear, not pve when I see him in wz

[TheronFett]

My guildie just scored a 9972 smash on someone with no expertise full Campaign sith sorc with almost 23k hp.

 

Which is less effective than a Smash on someone in recruit gear.

 

Expertise is less important for healers than DPS, which has been pretty well documented. Heals scale better, and though he'll take a lot more damage, he has the HP to make up for it...so it becomes a wash. I'd be thrilled to have a 300k healer on my team, and I wouldn't care if he showed up wearing a Gumby costume.

[vimm]

Which is less effective than a Smash on someone in recruit gear.

 

Expertise is less important for healers than DPS, which has been pretty well documented. Heals scale better, and though he'll take a lot more damage, he has the HP to make up for it...so it becomes a wash. I'd be thrilled to have a 300k healer on my team, and I wouldn't care if he showed up wearing a Gumby costume.

 

Lol, that extra health will be gone in an additional hit; who are you kidding?

[Ycoga]

Which is less effective than a Smash on someone in recruit gear.

 

Expertise is less important for healers than DPS, which has been pretty well documented. Heals scale better, and though he'll take a lot more damage, he has the HP to make up for it...so it becomes a wash. I'd be thrilled to have a 300k healer on my team, and I wouldn't care if he showed up wearing a Gumby costume.

 

Nothing's as important for healer damage mitigation than having a Guard placed on them. Expertise helps reduce the damage the tank picks up from their guard. A tank+healer can beat off 3 marauders. An unguarded healer will have to fight hard against 1 mara. A guarded healer with 0 expertise will funnel large amounts of damage to their tank, causing healing inefficiency. An unguarded healer with 0 expertise will waste time in the respawn box.

 

Besides, I'm sceptical of the importance some place on large Total healing or DPS amounts. I believe that as a support healer, sometimes quick heals where necessary combined with opportunistic DPS to finish off weakened enemies is more tactically effective than spamming heal.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ycoga

[Capt_Beers]

I made three pages without anyone mentioning this so I figure it's time:

 

The Trauma debuff.

 

All players will have a 30% healing reduction on them due to being in player combat. The healing boost form expertise will get you some of that back. for example:

 

Trauma Debuff

5k heal: 5k - (5k * .3) = 3500

 

Force Mystic BM:

35.k + (3.5k * .1242) = ~3935

 

Force Mystic Recruit Mk-2:

3.5k + (3.5k * .1042) = ~3865

 

That is also not taking into effect whether or not the target is effected by Flourish Shot or Vicious Throw (20% healing debuff)

Edited October 25, 2012 by Capt_Beers

[L-RANDLE]

I don't believe the problem is his healing output, I stated that further up, the problem is zero damage reduction in PvP from expertise while people with expertise get a 20% damage boost against him.

 

HP makes up for the damage boost the another player has, plus TTK is too damn short for the mitigation to actually "catch-up" to the loss in HP. Look at Midi, he went in full heal spec and had better burst heals. I am more that sure he didn't feel "more squishy", I would guess about the same as usual as a Sage/Sorc. Does every little bit of EXP help? IDK. Mitigation versus HP is inconclusive and highly situational at best, so at the end of the day take the output. Even if they are self healing. That's just as effective as being a tank in my eyes..

 

And for the "tank taking more damage on a guarded healer" crowd. Understand.. The ART of actually guarding someone is the point. You are sacrificing HP for a healer to have maximum healing output. Telling a RAK player to put on recruit to save you 15% is a joke. The difference between 50% and 65% is minor in the grand scheme of actually guarding someone. Say your healer carries no expertise, but heals at a 15%+ better clip like Midi did (7800 or 2500(?) from a recruit)? Would you still want him to get that EXP to save you 15% on a guard? You actually right back in the same spot, given identical situations. Your job is to peel, taunt and control anyway, thereby eliminating some of the damage taken by your healer. So... again you should want your healer to take the output over questionable gains mitigation...

[Nightkin]

Nothing's as important for healer damage mitigation than having a Guard placed on them. Expertise helps reduce the damage the tank picks up from their guard. A tank+healer can beat off 3 marauders. An unguarded healer will have to fight hard against 1 mara. A guarded healer with 0 expertise will funnel large amounts of damage to their tank, causing healing inefficiency. An unguarded healer with 0 expertise will waste time in the respawn box.

 

Besides, I'm sceptical of the importance some place on large Total healing or DPS amounts. I believe that as a support healer, sometimes quick heals where necessary combined with opportunistic DPS to finish off weakened enemies is more tactically effective than spamming heal.

 

Expertise doesnt actually have any effect on guard dmg. There is zero extra mitigation from that so stacking endurance to acceptable levels isnt actually a bad idea for someone who is just in the wz to guard.

[L-RANDLE]

Expertise doesnt actually have any effect on guard dmg. There is zero extra mitigation from that so stacking endurance to acceptable levels isnt actually a bad idea for someone who is just in the wz to guard.

 

As far a I knew, damage passed through guard is 50% of whatever calculated damage was done on the guarded player.

 

So if the guarded player has 0EXP tank get 50% of that attack.

If the player has 1000EXP tank get 50%, after the attack is scaled down by 15% due to the guarded player's EXP value.

 

In essence, tanks are taking an extra 15%, well really only 7.5%, but 15% as a tandem..

[Ycoga]

Look at Midi, he went in full heal spec and had better burst heals. I am more that sure he didn't feel "more squishy", I would guess about the same as usual as a Sage/Sorc. Does every little bit of EXP help? IDK. Mitigation versus HP is inconclusive and highly situational at best, so at the end of the day take the output.

'Mitigation vs HP' is not inconclusive. Guards (and thereby mitigation) are superior to increased max HP.

 

And for the "tank taking more damage on a guarded healer" crowd. Understand.. The ART of actually guarding someone is the point. You are sacrificing HP for a healer to have maximum healing output. Telling a RAK player to put on recruit to save you 15% is a joke. The difference between 50% and 65% is minor in the grand scheme of actually guarding someone. Say your healer carries no expertise, but heals at a 15%+ better clip like Midi did (7800 or 2500(?) from a recruit)? Would you still want him to get that EXP to save you 15% on a guard? You actually right back in the same spot, given identical situations. Your job is to peel, taunt and control anyway, thereby eliminating some of the damage taken by your healer. So... again you should want your healer to take the output over questionable gains mitigation...

I think you are underestimating the danger that burst damage carries for a guarded healer. In other words, your example above only applies when non-spikey damage is coming in. Expertise helps flatten those spikes out.

 

I don't really get what you're arguing for... you'd actually prefer to guard a healer that has 0% expertise? They've got a trauma debuff of 30%, which expertise could reduce, but they'll be healing themselves (weakly) so much due to spike damage that they'll not be able to keep you topped up.

 

Expertise doesnt actually have any effect on guard dmg.

As mentioned above; the healer takes less due to expertise, then the tank takes some of that reduced total through guard.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ycoga