Am I in the wrong for not wearing Recruit gear?

[Zarrot]

Questions, am I in the wrong for not wearing Recruit gear? I have found my PvE gear do great heals in my opinion. Any healers or other class not wear any PvP gear?

 

Every time someone PvP's in PvE gear Darth Malgus kills a kitten.

[L-RANDLE]

'Mitigation vs HP' is not inconclusive. Guards (and thereby mitigation) are superior to increased max HP. .

If you think so, show me how? Most of it will boil down to subjective observations or the fact that "BW said so"(even though the numbers don't back either of those things up).

 

Guard is not actually mitigation. That damage has to go somewhere. You are spreading out damage over two HPs. As a team, it is the same damage in, as healing going out. Whether speading it out "helps"? Again that is situational, and never the case if you are the ball carrier in HB.

 

As Midi, myself, and others have said, we have seen virtually no difference between the two. It is situational, i.e. its a zergfest, and you are being healed 100% of the time. Then, mitigation has a *chance* to outpace HP.

 

Does this happen in every WZ? No.

How many WZ have you not had a healer at all? Plenty.

 

So yeah its inconclusive and highly situational, at best.

 

 

I think you are underestimating the danger that burst damage carries for a guarded healer. In other words, your example above only applies when non-spikey damage is coming in. Expertise helps flatten those spikes out. .

There is virtually no difference in a spike @ 5000 versus a spike @ 4250 for any player. It is the mere fact that the spike actually happened that makes the difference moot,...................

but as a tank, 2500 or 2125.... That's 375HP difference. Guess what happens if that guarded healer, like Midi, healed you for 7800 with 0 EXP or 7500 with 1200EXP? Looks like a wash to me, still making the difference moot.

 

 

I don't really get what you're arguing for... .

I am trying to get people to expand their thoughts on time and probability. At ANY instant in time, given the same damage/heals calculations, the difference between the two is moot... Not arguing, explaining that before people "run" to tell people to put on recruit gear, maybe look at the numbers and exactly what they are wearing before you pass judgement. In some cases, telling them that is actually asking them to nerf their output for the sake of something questionable as mitigation (while also nerfing his armor rating).

 

you'd actually prefer to guard a healer that has 0% expertise?.

If they are wearing RAK or better, and don't have BM or better? YES... The OP had on a few columi pieces. Those are the only ones that "need" to be replaced, otherwise he is fine until he starts to accumulate BM/WH pieces.

[Nightkin]

As far a I knew, damage passed through guard is 50% of whatever calculated damage was done on the guarded player.

 

So if the guarded player has 0EXP tank get 50% of that attack.

If the player has 1000EXP tank get 50%, after the attack is scaled down by 15% due to the guarded player's EXP value.

 

In essence, tanks are taking an extra 15%, well really only 7.5%, but 15% as a tandem..

That is completely right, however the tanks expertise value does not lower the guard dmg taken.

[Ewgal]

New recruit geared players have about 14-15K health and are really easy to spot on a war zone by this number by Marauder DPS. BM geared players are usually somewhere between 16 and 17K. Usually WH and EWH geared players are 19K plus. Any idiot can work out the easy kills as melee DPSer in a WZ.

 

There is a case for using some PvE gear with recruit at first to give you a bit more in your stats. Generally when at BM level you will start to drop all that. Medpacks are your friend as new guy in PvP to start with also.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ewgal

[L-RANDLE]

That is completely right, however the tanks expertise value does not lower the guard dmg taken.

 

Agreed, and another reason I say tanks should not go past 1000EXP(tops) and take the END. if you have a MAX HP % increase talent like I do, and combine that with a 35% max health PvP medpack....... but yeah, taking endurance is not as good as mitigation...:rolleyes:

 

 

 

The soft caps are like this:

 

DPS: 1100-1200(~22%)

TANKS: 900-1000(~15%)

HEALERS: 800-900(~10%)

[Ycoga]

Ok, I'll try it out sometime.

[To-le]

Here are a few thoughts from a full WH sage healer.

 

When I start a wz I look at my team to see who has low expertise. If somebody has high health but low expertise they are going to get melted if focused on. Also as a healer I spend a lot of time and energy keeping them up. With that being said if somebody has 850isk expertise and lower, they are a liability to the team. The lack of dps and survivability makes everyone else work harder to carry them. Also NEVER leave then alone to guard a node. And friends don’t let friends do ranked wz’s without 1100ish+ expertise. The damage mitigation loss is to much for high in pvp.

 

As for 300k healing. That number is ok for a huttball or a wz you are owning face on. With the full healer spec a well placed AOE heal will give you insane numbers. 600k to 800k was my average on non rollbus warzones. Since then I have went hybrid heals getting the stun bubble and root kb for ranked pvp. Average healing is normally 400k to 600k in long fights. I totally recommend it if you want to up your game.

[LordXayd]

Isn't 300k+ healing satisfactory enough though? I check the Recruit gear but if memory serves me right, their stats were less than my BH/Rakata gear.

 

Dont forget that Expertise provides bonus healing. But more than that, the problem comes in when youre attacked. You're just too squishy without expertise protecting you. I dont waste my heals on folks in PvE gear because I can't keep them up. Better to heal someone else that actually has a chance of a surviving.

 

As a healer, youre a primary target. As a PvE healer, an experienced PvPer will focus you for instaganks every time he sees you. It will be even worse if a PvP healing teamMate is trying to keep you up pointlessly. Your death means group death. Honestly, I can't think of a worse person to be in PvE gear than the healer, except maybe a designated ball handler in huttball.

Edited October 25, 2012 by LordXayd

[L-RANDLE]

And the healers come out.....

Here are a few thoughts from a full WH sage healer.

 

When I start a wz I look at my team to see who has low expertise. If somebody has high health but low expertise they are going to get melted if focused on..

Anyone gets melted if they are focused on regardless of EXP number they might have.

So you have no problem keeping recruits up through a focus versus a RAK geared player? Sorry but, lol. You can't solo heal a recruit through a focus, even as a WH Sage. I could name a TON of scenarios to counter any situation given by healers as to how "hard" it is. They are going to die either way, BUT..... the RAK player had more output. So as a team, which is more favorable?

 

If you are being focused w/o EXP the TTK is about the same. It's the same argument I laid forth for tanks. The ACT of actually healing someone is what matters, NOT minor differences between 1200EXP and 0EXP. Do you understand that concept? I already said it. In a zergfest, it might matter, but PvP ain't about zerging, you are not being healed 100% of the time, and all of that assumes a healer is even present.

 

Also as a healer I spend a lot of time and energy keeping them up. With that being said if somebody has 850isk expertise and lower, they are a liability to the team...

Quantify liability. Am I liability because I am at 715EXP, even though my DPS is on par with people in full BM (and I am hybrid tank spec) and is a cruel joke when you compare it to recruits? Was Midiclorian being a liability in the WZ he did as a test run @ 114EXP?

 

 

Many, many, many respected healers I know don't waste time on recruits because their HP pool & damage/heal output is too low.

 

The lack of dps and survivability makes everyone else work harder to carry them. Also NEVER leave then alone to guard a node.

Lack? What lack? You are late to the party bro. DPS/HPS output is virtually neck and neck in a recruit versus a RAK. Carrying EXP from recruit gear (subject of this thread BTW) in any other PVE case @ RAK or higher is a nerf.

 

See below:

 

A sage in full war hero posted a video a while back asking people to guess how he healed himself, his deliverence was around 7500. Idk if he was min/maxed for power or whatever to increase his healing though.

Then:

I'm using the WH power relics so I have 114 expertise.

Speced heals earlier (boredom, had a deliverance on 7,8K btw) and had 400K in a fairly short VS, never healed before and didnt feel comfortable at all. I stayed alive long enough to outheal my team mates, who were wearing pvp gear. Speced back to dps and had 600K on Novare, 260K ahead of closest pvp geared dps team mate. And this was despite solo guarding with a healer for quite some time and in PvE spec (no bubble boosts). I think expetise for sage is broken because I'm not noticing any difference.

 

He hit your magic numbers (400K heals, 600k DPS) with virtually ZERO EXP.. Still think he is a liability? He didn't notice a difference and he shouldn't because the math pans out. The amount of MAIN you lose is directly porpotional to the EXP you gain, which are both tied into your attack/heal rating. You are robbing from peter to pay paul. You magic EXP number says 12% on your screen isn't really 12%, if you compare two same tier items (WH V BH). It's more like a 1-2% increase, while also decreasing your crit rating. Lack of DPS/HPS? There is a couple hundred HP(~200) swing between carrying no EXP versus 1200 (and dice rolls also impact how close those numbers are). That's not game changing, and in Midi's case is laughable switching from WH to BH!! It's slightly better in PVE gear overall (Squishiness about the same, sustained heal output just as good, Burst is actually better). Imagine him going from BH to recruit, as some would suggest. Sure the competition could have been different, more "geared" players etc, but the universal is HIS feel (which is polar opposite of yours, at the core). Which is why I said it is inconclusive, but....

 

 

 

 

Now, with the OP case, you are asking him to now take a 5%+ decrease, so he isn't a "liability"? Awesome....

 

Hey Midi. Go put on your recruit gear and dish out some 2k heals, instead of 7.8k... You know....., to make it "easier" on the other healers...... :-S

 

 

Sorry for the brashness, but really, expand your understanding of EXP as it relates to PvE gear. The apply that to the OP's current situation.

 

To the OP: Recruit is NO BETTER, that the pieces you currently have on and your WZ performance "proves" it.

 

And friends don’t let friends do ranked wz’s without 1100ish+ expertise. The damage mitigation loss is to much for high in pvp.

Last I heard, mechanics in either arenas are the same. If I'm queing for ranked, the same rules still apply. Healers are nerfing their output if they are past 900 and and no players are getting anything from mitigation past 1000.

 

 

 

Look, I am not advocating carrying no EXP. It's there, so use it, but damn it, be judicious about it. Look at any attack/heal according to your tooltip rating with your PvE gear on. Write the number down. Then switch to the PvP pieces, and add in the EXP % gain in PvP to that same attack/heal. If the rating lower with the PVP piece on, don't wear it... It's that simple.

[warultima]

Doesnt matter really. I love people playing with no expertise, when they start on the opposite side of me.

[HammerHermann]

Would you wear PvP gear to a raid if you had the choice to wear pve gear?

 

The end

[L-RANDLE]

Doesnt matter really. I love people playing with no expertise, when they start on the opposite side of me.

 

Yes, it does,..... to all the gear griefers. I am pesticide to those people.

 

 

And laugh at them after I outperform them in WZs, all at 750EXP(by choice). I am still missing a few WH MODS, so even when I replace those and a few other choice pieces I'll be around 900, on my alt tank. I am pretty hard to kill right now... What happens at 900EXP?

 

Want to hear something even funnier? There are only 5 PvP items that are actually BiS for PvP. Very few believes me though. I'll just keep trucking @ 750.....

[L-RANDLE]

Would you wear PvP gear to a raid if you had the choice to wear pve gear?

 

The end

 

No... the begining of knowledge... The real question is: Would I wear WH gear to a raid, instead of Columi. The answer is: YES!!!!

[HammerHermann]

No... the begining of knowledge... The real question is: Would I wear WH gear to a raid, instead of Columi. The answer is: YES!!!!

 

Play fair! *shakes fist*

[L-RANDLE]

Play fair! *shakes fist*

 

hey, you started it. Well, actually, the OP asked the question.

[Devilk]

No expertise sages/sorcerers are extremely squishy. Edited October 25, 2012 by Devilk

[L-RANDLE]

No expertise sages/sorcerers are extremely squishy.

 

Here is a story. My main is a "WH" Sage. When I was going throught the RNG garbage, I had mostly Champ/orange epic gear on. A certain Mara, who will remain nameless, ALWAYS beat my face in.

 

I said... Ok.. wait til I get my BM gear, IT'S ON!!!

 

Got said BM gear, got my face beat in AGAIN and AGAIN.

 

I sulked and said, how the f did the gear not help me? I studied the numbers, I looked at what Dulfy and MMO mechanics posted. Saw the charts, looked at my old gear and discovered... AHHHHH EXP actually sucks depending on where you are at.

 

I began to raid. Got some RAK/COL pieces, went up against the Mara. Got my face beat in AGAIN AND AGAIN.

 

Basically, everytime I went 1v1 versus this Mara(*cough** with the name of a certain green dinosour that eats shells *cough**cough*), there was no difference in my BM squishiness versus my RAK/COL.

 

 

Yes he(the AC) owns me, regardless of how much EXP I did or didn't carry

[To-le]

And the healers come out..... Anyone gets melted if they are focused on regardless of EXP number they might have.

So you have no problem keeping recruits up through a focus versus a RAK geared player? Sorry but, lol. You can't solo heal a recruit through a focus, even as a WH Sage. I could name a TON of scenarios to counter any situation given by healers as to how "hard" it is. They are going to die either way, BUT..... the RAK player had more output. So as a team, which is more favorable?

 

If you are being focused w/o EXP the TTK is about the same. It's the same argument I laid forth for tanks. The ACT of actually healing someone is what matters, NOT minor differences between 1200EXP and 0EXP. Do you understand that concept? I already said it. In a zergfest, it might matter, but PvP ain't about zerging, you are not being healed 100% of the time, and all of that assumes a healer is even present.

 

 

Quantify liability. Am I liability because I am at 715EXP, even though my DPS is on par with people in full BM (and I am hybrid tank spec) and is a cruel joke when you compare it to recruits? Was Midiclorian being a liability in the WZ he did as a test run @ 114EXP?

 

 

Many, many, many respected healers I know don't waste time on recruits because their HP pool & damage/heal output is too low.

 

Lack? What lack? You are late to the party bro. DPS/HPS output is virtually neck and neck in a recruit versus a RAK. Carrying EXP from recruit gear (subject of this thread BTW) in any other PVE case @ RAK or higher is a nerf.

 

See below:

 

 

Then:

 

 

He hit your magic numbers (400K heals, 600k DPS) with virtually ZERO EXP.. Still think he is a liability? He didn't notice a difference and he shouldn't because the math pans out. The amount of MAIN you lose is directly porpotional to the EXP you gain, which are both tied into your attack/heal rating. You are robbing from peter to pay paul. You magic EXP number says 12% on your screen isn't really 12%, if you compare two same tier items (WH V BH). It's more like a 1-2% increase, while also decreasing your crit rating. Lack of DPS/HPS? There is a couple hundred HP(~200) swing between carrying no EXP versus 1200 (and dice rolls also impact how close those numbers are). That's not game changing, and in Midi's case is laughable switching from WH to BH!! It's slightly better in PVE gear overall (Squishiness about the same, sustained heal output just as good, Burst is actually better). Imagine him going from BH to recruit, as some would suggest. Sure the competition could have been different, more "geared" players etc, but the universal is HIS feel (which is polar opposite of yours, at the core). Which is why I said it is inconclusive, but....

 

 

 

 

Now, with the OP case, you are asking him to now take a 5%+ decrease, so he isn't a "liability"? Awesome....

 

Hey Midi. Go put on your recruit gear and dish out some 2k heals, instead of 7.8k... You know....., to make it "easier" on the other healers...... :-S

 

 

Sorry for the brashness, but really, expand your understanding of EXP as it relates to PvE gear. The apply that to the OP's current situation.

 

To the OP: Recruit is NO BETTER, that the pieces you currently have on and your WZ performance "proves" it.

 

Last I heard, mechanics in either arenas are the same. If I'm queing for ranked, the same rules still apply. Healers are nerfing their output if they are past 900 and and no players are getting anything from mitigation past 1000.

 

 

 

Look, I am not advocating carrying no EXP. It's there, so use it, but damn it, be judicious about it. Look at any attack/heal according to your tooltip rating with your PvE gear on. Write the number down. Then switch to the PvP pieces, and add in the EXP % gain in PvP to that same attack/heal. If the rating lower with the PVP piece on, don't wear it... It's that simple.

 

Dang Bro. You wrote a book that I doubt anyone read. I sure didn't. Let me just finish with this thought. Wearing pve gear for pvp might work in regular warzones and yes, your numbers might be on par with others. When people choose to step up their game and do ranked, or want to be a serious pvper, they will keep expertise around 1200 and higher. Its all about staying alive. If you pull and switch mods you can really make your damage something nasty by playing the pve numbers but if you don't have that damage reduction, you are hurting yourself and your team.

[The_Brick]

Recruit gear is worthless... only did over 400 dps in a full set of Recruit in WZ's... it's absolute garbage... clearly I'd be better off rolling in some Columni or Tionese. Edited October 26, 2012 by The_Brick

[Gronkaarr]

get recruit gear. even if you can do 300K healing, you are going to take massive amounts of damage by having no expertise. if the other team is not full retard you will get marked and slaughtered very quickly

[Arkerus]

Besides my Battlemaster relics/lightsaber, my other gear are mostly Blackhole/Rakata/Columi. I'm near rank 40 but have taken a hiatus from PvP because I enjoyed PvE more in a PvE server. Decided to resume PvP and got put-down and asked to leave because of my gear. I remained proactive and just stayed, healing [sage healer] 300k+ in all three matches and I was at the top of the other healers.

 

Questions, am I in the wrong for not wearing Recruit gear? I have found my PvE gear do great heals in my opinion. Any healers or other class not wear any PvP gear?

 

Honestly, there is a point when pure PvE gear overtakes recruit gear. It's tough to say. I personally would not ask you to leave. The problem is that you'll be fairly soft against someone in pure PvP gear. Your damage and healing output should be fine.

[CommanderKeeva]

Don't expect to last 3 seconds in PvE gear in 1v1 fights. It's like wearing no armor at all. But then again don't expect to last very long in Recruit gear either. You'll be a doormat either way until you get at least BM.

 

As for the high-end PvE gear vs. low-end PvP gear comparison, it really depends on whether or not you get focused down by enemies. In either case, you'll essentially be a free kill for War Heroes. If you're playing a ranged class and take pains to stay as far away from enemies as possible then you can probably get away with top-end (Black Hole at least) PvE gear because you're less likely to be killed on sight. If you're playing a melee class, however, even the best PvE armor cannot compensate for the fact that you die in 3 or 4 seconds.

 

This is just my personal opinion, anyway. On my Sentinel I used Recruit from the beginning because as a melee class I took a lot of punishment. On my Commando, I used min/maxed Black Hole (lvl61 gear) gear until I got the Battlemaster pieces. Granted I died very quickly if someone decided to go after me but it happened fairly rarely because I always made sure to stay as far back as possible and the extra damage helped getting more commendations.

 

Either way, switch to BM as soon as possible. That will be a big upgrade both for you and your team.

Edited October 27, 2012 by CommanderKeeva