Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Boch]

matchmaking would have almost no impact on queue times.... the population it draws from would be the same. it would just take the available players and filter them so that similarly skilled players are matched with/against each other.

 

matchmaking can also be tweaked to widen search criteria the longer youre in the queue, until it just throws you in the next available group for a WZ regardless of skill level.

 

 

you dont really mess with queue times until you start splitting the PvP population.

 

That works great for the hours and servers with a lot of people queuing. But what about the players who play on servers without a healthy PvP population or those that play in off hours, you go back to the same old crap.

[MotorCityMan]

I honestly think most people want the same thing, fun and competitive matches. They real solution without affecting ques times is cross server ques with things like match making and solo only matches.

 

Indeed

Edited June 25, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[cashogy_reborn]

That works great for the hours and servers with a lot of people queuing. But what about the players who play on servers without a healthy PvP population or those that play in off hours, you go back to the same old crap.

 

that is absolutely irrelevant to how a matchmaking algorithm would work.

 

if you have a poor PvP population now, what do you think splitting that population further with a solo only queue will do to queue times?

 

a proper matchmaking algorithm (which is nowhere near as complicated as most folks believe), would slowly expand the search criteria to speed up queue pops. ie, for the first 2 minutes youre in the queue it tries to find others with rating +/- 10% of your own for you to play with/against. after 2 minutes, it removes the criteria and groups you with the next available players in order to get you into a match quickly.

 

 

if you have poor queue times now, its because you dont have enough players on your server. and nothing short of cross server queues (which will NOT be happening in this game in the near or distant future) will improve your queue time. i suggest transfering to an actual PvP server if you want active WZ queues.

[Boch]

Yeah, good old, methodologically questionable, unquantifiablly defined, sounds great on paper, pie-in-the-sky, make believe "match-making".

 

I know right, giving people a rank based off previous performance then matching them with like ranked players is future talk. Except games have been doing it for years. Without cross server ques it makes a lot more sense than solo only ques, which would just makes current ques worse. I'm all for solo only ques, but only with the population cross serve r would supply.

[akabane_k]

That works great for the hours and servers with a lot of people queuing. But what about the players who play on servers without a healthy PvP population or those that play in off hours, you go back to the same old crap.

 

if you dont have enough people, theres not really any solution except transfer.

Still better to have something work 90%, and fail 10% of the time, than fail 100% of the time.

[Boch]

that is absolutely irrelevant to how a matchmaking algorithm would work.

 

if you have a poor PvP population now, what do you think splitting that population further with a solo only queue will do to queue times?

 

a proper matchmaking algorithm (which is nowhere near as complicated as most folks believe), would slowly expand the search criteria to speed up queue pops. ie, for the first 2 minutes youre in the queue it tries to find others with rating +/- 10% of your own for you to play with/against. after 2 minutes, it removes the criteria and groups you with the next available players in order to get you into a match quickly.

 

 

if you have poor queue times now, its because you dont have enough players on your server. and nothing short of cross server queues (which will NOT be happening in this game in the near or distant future) will improve your queue time. i suggest transfering to an actual PvP server if you want active WZ queues.

 

First off I'm not for solo ques unless they have cross server. And I'm all for a match making system, but with current server populations its still just a band Ade. It won't fix most the issues in this thread. I'm looking big picture. I know what BW said. But until more people start pushing the issue it won't be a priority.

[Comfterbilly]

that is absolutely irrelevant to how a matchmaking algorithm would work.

 

if you have a poor PvP population now, what do you think splitting that population further with a solo only queue will do to queue times?

 

a proper matchmaking algorithm (which is nowhere near as complicated as most folks believe), would slowly expand the search criteria to speed up queue pops. ie, for the first 2 minutes youre in the queue it tries to find others with rating +/- 10% of your own for you to play with/against. after 2 minutes, it removes the criteria and groups you with the next available players in order to get you into a match quickly.

 

Yeah,excellent, oh great matchmaking algorithm inventor. So then, apply for a job lol. But don't mistake your ability to go playing freshman computer science, for a free ticket to substitute your own egotistical approach in place of what the rest of the pvp community is looking for out of their experience in the game. Basically you're just patting your zerg-self on the back while using your little hobby to convince yourself that, therefore, that you're not really "biased".

 

Whatever you do with your algorithms and hobbies, is irrelevant to the ongoing discussion. It's not proof of anything.

[Boch]

if you dont have enough people, theres not really any solution except transfer.

Still better to have something work 90%, and fail 10% of the time, than fail 100% of the time.

 

I wasn't think of myself but of others who have expressed those concerns, like APAC players. I know its a foreign concept for most.

[akabane_k]

Yeah,excellent, oh great matchmaking algorithm inventor. So then, apply for a job lol. But don't mistake your ability to go playing freshman computer science, for a free ticket to substitute your own egotistical approach in place of what the rest of the pvp community is looking for out of their experience in the game. Basically you're just patting your zerg-self on the back while using your little hobby to convince yourself that, therefore, that you're not really "biased".

 

Whatever you do with your algorithms and hobbies, is irrelevant to the ongoing discussion. It's not proof of anything.

 

Do not assume that you speak for the pvp community, you don't

[cashogy_reborn]

First off I'm not for solo ques unless they have cross server. And I'm all for a match making system, but with current server populations its still just a band Ade. It won't fix most the issues in this thread. I'm looking big picture. I know what BW said. But until more people start pushing the issue it won't be a priority.

 

matchmaking will not have a negative impact on queue times. there is nothing that can have a positive impact on queue times other than increasing the available population of players in the queue. Cross server is one way to do that, but the devs have confirmed on multiple occasions that there are no plans now or in the distant future to even start working on that.

 

Yeah,excellent, oh great matchmaking algorithm inventor. So then, apply for a job lol. But don't mistake your ability to go playing freshman computer science, for a free ticket to substitute your own egotistical approach in place of what the rest of the pvp community is looking for out of their experience in the game. Basically you're just patting your zerg-self on the back while using your little hobby to convince yourself that, therefore, that you're not really "biased".

 

Whatever you do with your algorithms and hobbies, is irrelevant to the ongoing discussion. It's not proof of anything.

 

so is there an argument in all of that name calling?

 

it took me less than 90 minutes to write a matchmaking algorithm that would actually work. in all honesty, you dont even need to spend that much time on it b/c there are numerous matchmaking algorithms that you can just copy/paste from the public.

 

the root of the whining in this thread is that bad players dont want to face good players. 99% of the people in this thread cant/dont/refuse to see that, but it is what it is. matchmaking is the only thing that is going to put players of similar skill together.

 

and what exactly are you arguing for? your previous posts make it seem that you believe the *only* advantages a premade has is group cohesion, gear progression rate, voip, team comp, etc. does player skill not have anything to do with why premades perform so well? or do you think that if you were to remove voip, gear differences, pre-wz choosing of team comp, etc that every player would be 100% equal?

[MotorCityMan]

 

the root of the whining in this thread is that bad players dont want to face good players. 99% of the people in this thread cant/dont/refuse to see that, but it is what it is. matchmaking is the only thing that is going to put players of similar skill together.

 

I don't know the percentages, but it is possible that some keyboard turning bads who whine because they haven't grown some yet and are noobs wish to be able to pug and not face a team of 4 min-maxed experienced players playing the OP classes equipped with game pads, mechanical keyboards, gaming mice, voice chat, the latest bolster exploit, macros, scripts, and the spit emote.

I am not sure a workable match making system mixing variable teams and solos is possible, let alone probable. I mean look how long it's taking to get bolster implemented.

So a cruder solution is just to separate them as much as possible. Sure it's not fair to all teams and solos, but it might be the solution that is possible and more probable.

Edited June 26, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[Boch]

I don't know the percentages

 

You must be new to the internet. Around these parts we make up percentages to support our arguments. But don't make them to high or you will come across as a jack ***.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Boch

[Zhaker]

No one is claiming anyone is "evil", and setting up anyone who disagrees with you by saying they act victimized is just strawman garbage. This game was meant to be fun. If I choose to play it, I don't play it to bootlick to elitists in order to get into their premade/guild. I play it to enjoy it.

 

Like it or not, the "baddies" are the ones keeping this game afloat. Without the "baddies" subbing and buying cartel items, this game sinks, and fast.

 

When the game is not fun, people quit. Getting facerolled by the same premade all night is not fun. People are quitting, and will continue to do so until EA/BW does something to make PvP more enjoyable for everyone, not just premades.

 

Sorry people are getting facerolled SIMPLY is because they give up not because they didnt put up a fight. When the majority gives up with the minority trying to win then its really no fun. Now if people put up a fight and make it fun they could actually win.

 

The real question is do they want to play the game to try to win or just keep looking for WZ without a premade because they think in a placebo way they have a chance to win.

[Doomsdaycomes]

so is there an argument in all of that name calling?

 

There's a really simple formula for shutting Comfter up. Any time he speaks, just ask him:

 

How come (according to him) in one situation, PuG's leaving the regular warzones queue (quitting the game) is enough to destabilize the regular queue population. Yet in another situation (again, according to him), PuG's leaving the regular warzone queue (quitting for the solo-only queue) isn't enough to destabilize the regular queue population.

 

Any time he tries to argue that something else happens in the second situation, remind him the same happens in the first. More Players join the game? Happens in the first too. PuG's could stay cause some of them like facing groups, can still happen in the first situation.

 

Eventually he'll explode in a puff of logic.

[Doomsdaycomes]

First off I'm not for solo ques unless they have cross server. And I'm all for a match making system, but with current server populations its still just a band Ade. It won't fix most the issues in this thread. I'm looking big picture. I know what BW said. But until more people start pushing the issue it won't be a priority.

 

Having read your posts the last few threads, I'm eager to welcome someone intelligent to the thread.

 

I think as Cash mentioned (and I apologize if I misread his meaning) nothing is going to help a low population server except cross server queue'ing. If they were to have cross server queueing which do you think is better, Matchmaking or Solo-only queues (next to group+solo)?

[cashogy_reborn]

I don't know the percentages, but it is possible that some keyboard turning bads who whine because they haven't grown some yet and are noobs wish to be able to pug and not face a team of 4 min-maxed experienced players playing the OP classes equipped with game pads, mechanical keyboards, gaming mice, voice chat, the latest bolster exploit, macros, scripts, and the spit emote.

I am not sure a workable match making system mixing variable teams and solos is possible, let alone probable. I mean look how long it's taking to get bolster implemented.

So a cruder solution is just to separate them as much as possible. Sure it's not fair to all teams and solos, but it might be the solution that is possible and more probable.

 

the bolded: available to everyone. 1/10

 

solo queue will be bad for the game. you will see a moderate increase in queue time for solos, and a huge increase in queue time for premades. you are splitting up the PvP population; never a good move, especially when so many people are whining about queue times already.

 

and what happens to 2 and especially 3 man premades? it will be very, very hard for a 3-man premade to find a group in a premade only queue.

 

if you had an option to opt out of facing groups (as a few others have suggested in this thread), that would be a decent middle ground solution. it would still be the same Reg WZ queue, but you could check a box in the PvP window that said something along the lines of "i dont want to fight premades", and then you would be either matched with players that chose the similar option or other players that just solo queued the regular way. i would think that a trigger after a certain amount of time would remove the filter and just stick you into a WZ like normal, but some players may not want that to happen.

Edited June 26, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[Comfterbilly]

and what happens to 2 and especially 3 man premades? it will be very, very hard for a 3-man premade to find a group in a premade only queue.

 

Not when solos are allowed to toggle for groups OR solo-only. You (and most other pro-premaders) claim you "solo all the time". So you will be the guy that evens out the 3-man.

[cashogy_reborn]

Not when solos are allowed to toggle for groups OR solo-only. You (and most other pro-premaders) claim you "solo all the time". So you will be the guy that evens out the 3-man.

 

then perhaps you should start advocating for a solo-only toggle, rather than a separate solo-only queue?

 

splitting up the total PvP population is bad for all groups of players

[Comfterbilly]

then perhaps you should start advocating for a solo-only toggle, rather than a separate solo-only queue?

 

splitting up the total PvP population is bad for all groups of players

 

I have been.

Thousands of paying customers have been demanding a solo-only que option since launch. Well over a year later, it's plain to see in the PVP thread and elsewhere that they are really serious. These are paying customers who are sincere about the game, this is not a fickle request, it is not something we can enjoy the game without. The people who really like PVP, and really dislike being stuck in a que to be farmed by ranked teams who are slumming it, have spoken loudly from the beginning, throughout every update, right up to the present when the demanda for a solo-only warzone toggle are louder than ever. We were serious about it then, we are serious about it now, and we'll be serious about it when 3.0 comes out, and beyond:

 

WE. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. QUE. WITH. PREMADES.

 

It's time to stop sweeping us under the rug BW. It's time to stop throwing true blue pug players to the dogs. Premades are against it - they want easy farming. We are sick of it.

 

1. Just because we can make our own premades does not mean we want to.

2. Just because they want to "play with their friends" doesn't mean we want to play with their friends.

3. Just because premades spam gimmicks and "plays", doesn't mean we want to be forced to do the same.

4. Whatever the merits of premades - we are not interested.

 

We're tired of the gimmick spam. We're sick of the non-stop predation, run-around-in-circles all day. We're sick of the chain-stuns. Sick of the cross-healing.

 

Translation: sick of the ranked 4-mans slumming it in solo que because BW continues to let them get away with it.

 

The situation:

 

1. The player versus player is a SWTOR feature.

2. It's something that attracts people to the game.

3. It's an attraction that's superior to what is offered by other similar game products.

4. The superiority of SWTOR warzones is one of the things that makes the game valuable.

5. The value of the game is what makes players want to spend money on it.

 

BUT: For a significant number of people who have been very vocal about their opinions, the lack of a solo-only que detracts substantially from the value of the game.

 

1. It matters less that the warzones are superior.

2. It greatly lessens the attraction.

3. It stops being a feature, and starts being an eyesore.

 

Very plainly, these ranked 4-mans masquerading as "friendly premades", are players we dislike and whom we resent being forced to share a warzone with. We don't want to play with them, we don't have to play with them. Clearly, the next game developer to offer feature PVP with solo-only que, will be going a long way to earn our subscriptions.

Personally, I'm hoping that company is Bioware.

 

CFTBLY.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Boch]

Having read your posts the last few threads, I'm eager to welcome someone intelligent to the thread.

 

I think as Cash mentioned (and I apologize if I misread his meaning) nothing is going to help a low population server except cross server queue'ing. If they were to have cross server queueing which do you think is better, Matchmaking or Solo-only queues (next to group+solo)?

 

Match making first, you could do this now, but it wont flourish with out cross server. And see how it goes with cross server ques. Then if people still have huge issues with premades after a match making system after a few months, put in solo ques.

[cashogy_reborn]

I have been.

 

you might want to focus more on the ideas you are presenting rather than belittling the people that enjoy grouping.... in that entire wall of text you mention a solo-only toggle once:

 

The people who really like PVP, and really dislike being stuck in a que to be farmed by ranked teams who are slumming it, have spoken loudly from the beginning, throughout every update, right up to the present when the demanda for a solo-only warzone toggle are louder than ever

 

the rest of the post, and in almost every post i have seen you make, you call it a "solo-only queue".

 

separate queues are a bad idea. splitting the PvP population is a no-go, no matter what side of the argument you are on. the ability to toggle "vs premades" or "not vs premades" in regs would be great imo; folks that dont want to fight premades wouldnt have to, and folks that want the option to remain would queue normally. which is a plus, because the folks that queue normally will fill in both "with premade" and "without premade" matches.

 

 

you might want to take a less hostile approach (ie dont call anyone rapists.... ) and post more on your suggestions and not just arguing point for point with everyone, whilst slinging copious amounts of mud.

 

it seems that we agree on what should be the core solution of this issue (i think solo-toggle would be good, so do you).

 

i do think that a matchmaking system, on top of a solo-toggle, would be an even better way to improve the quality of WZ PvP we all see.

 

 

unrelated: folks need to realize that cross server queues are likely never coming. it would take a significant long term cash investment on EA's part, and i think we know how they stand on that kind of financial activity. if you are unhappy with queue times on your server, transfer.

Edited June 26, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[Doomsdaycomes]

if you had an option to opt out of facing groups (as a few others have suggested in this thread), that would be a decent middle ground solution. it would still be the same Reg WZ queue, but you could check a box in the PvP window that said something along the lines of "i dont want to fight premades", and then you would be either matched with players that chose the similar option or other players that just solo queued the regular way. i would think that a trigger after a certain amount of time would remove the filter and just stick you into a WZ like normal, but some players may not want that to happen.

 

The issue with a solo-only toggle (or solo queue and solo+group) is it gives the less "competitive element" the power to pick your opponents, but gives no incentive not to. Now, I know you solo queue so it's not that all solo people will take the option but... It makes me wonder why most wouldn't take the "easier" queue. There needs to be some kind of incentive or the ones who get punished are the ones who are exclude in the option (the groups).

 

Of course, any mention of solo-only option giving less comms usually stirs a howling tirade of complaints from certain people here. Much in the same way Regular gives less than Ranked, PuG-only needs to give less than Regular.

 

I'd still put matchmaking as the best answer. It doesn't give anyone power over their opponents, doesn't have any hard split of population, and still churns out more even matches.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Match making first, you could do this now, but it wont flourish with out cross server. And see how it goes with cross server ques. Then if people still have huge issues with premades after a match making system after a few months, put in solo ques.

 

I like your style.

 

No disagreements.

[Comfterbilly]

you might want to focus more on the ideas you are presenting rather than belittling the people that enjoy grouping.... in that entire wall of text you mention a solo-only toggle once:

 

 

 

the rest of the post, and in almost every post i have seen you make, you call it a "solo-only queue".

 

separate queues are a bad idea. splitting the PvP population is a no-go, no matter what side of the argument you are on. the ability to toggle "vs premades" or "not vs premades" in regs would be great imo; folks that dont want to fight premades wouldnt have to, and folks that want the option to remain would queue normally. which is a plus, because the folks that queue normally will fill in both "with premade" and "without premade" matches.

 

 

you might want to take a less hostile approach (ie dont call anyone rapists.... ) and post more on your suggestions and not just arguing point for point with everyone, whilst slinging copious amounts of mud.

 

it seems that we agree on what should be the core solution of this issue (i think solo-toggle would be good, so do you).

 

i do think that a matchmaking system, on top of a solo-toggle, would be an even better way to improve the quality of WZ PvP we all see.

 

 

unrelated: folks need to realize that cross server queues are likely never coming. it would take a significant long term cash investment on EA's part, and i think we know how they stand on that kind of financial activity. if you are unhappy with queue times on your server, transfer.

 

Alright. Sorry then. IMD, after 2 years of solos being degraded for even suggesting a toggle, it's easy to get defensive. At the same time, premaders make a lot of instant assumptions over semantics, because they don't see the problem.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[maverickmatt]

The issue with a solo-only toggle (or solo queue and solo+group) is it gives the less "competitive element" the power to pick your opponents, but gives no incentive not to. Now, I know you solo queue so it's not that all solo people will take the option but... It makes me wonder why most wouldn't take the "easier" queue. There needs to be some kind of incentive or the ones who get punished are the ones who are exclude in the option (the groups).

 

Of course, any mention of solo-only option giving less comms usually stirs a howling tirade of complaints from certain people here. Much in the same way Regular gives less than Ranked, PuG-only needs to give less than Regular.

 

I'd still put matchmaking as the best answer. It doesn't give anyone power over their opponents, doesn't have any hard split of population, and still churns out more even matches.

 

I spent the last 2 hours or so reading all the posts in this thread. I can comfortably say (and I've said it before) that most don't have an issue with the "casual" premade. The issue lies with the "competitive" premade. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult to draw a distinction, and you get what we have here.

 

I do not believe that most premades are of the "competitive" type. In fact, I'd venture to say that there are maybe 6 or 7 groups that are "competitive" on Pot5 that queue regs, and mostly it seems they queue regs while they wait on a Ranked WZ to pop. Whatever the solution, it needs to be comprehensive. It can't be just matchmaking, and it can't be just a toggle. It needs to be smarter and more adaptable than that.

 

A mix of both, and maybe some form of stimulation for the Ranked tier could be the solution. If you give these "competitive" teams a place to be competitive, I assume it would alleviate a great deal of the frustrations that the solo-queuer experiences. I'd also like to see the removal of double-queueing Ranked and Regs. Often times you'll get half (if not all) of the rated team as your opponents while they wait. Force them to make the choice. It would serve as a deterrent from what we are currently seeing.

 

Understand that for any of this to work, all of it has to work. Removing double-queues won't work unless you stimulate Ranked, and stimulating Ranked won't work unless you give people a reason to do them. Matchmaking won't work by itself initially until everyone has an established range (hopefully it would be a dynamic rating), and you can't accurately assess a player's skill range unless you put them in a setting where all other things are equal, which is where the solo-only toggle comes in.

 

I'd like to see it sorted, because as-is there is definitely a very large issue.

Edited June 26, 2013 by maverickmatt