Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Doomsdaycomes]

Because a change is necessary.

 

Giving one group gun, and the other knives, and expecting the Knife group to have fun is stupid. Yet that's exactly what they've done with Expertise. And Bolster? Let's review: If you don't have Expertise, we're going to give it to you, anyhow. So.. what's the point?

 

My system gets around all of that. If you don't want to play in the "big leagues", you do not have to; but more importantly, you're not punished for it. And if you do, then you'll be doing so against like-minded individuals. Simple. Easy. Logical.

 

So, a friend and I don't want to play in "the big leagues."

 

Yet if we want to PvP, we're not allowed to play together?

[Mccordrm]

That's the same advantage of a pre-made. On a lesser scale, but still the same advantage.

Like I said, you can't have it both ways. If you want to keep "casual" and "pre-made" separate, then that's exactly what you have to do.

[Doomsdaycomes]

That's the same advantage of a pre-made. On a lesser scale, but still the same advantage.

Like I said, you can't have it both ways. If you want to keep "casual" and "pre-made" separate, then that's exactly what you have to do.

 

Ah, there's the problem. I have not stated I wish to separate casual from pre-made. Those two terms are not opposites.

 

Casual is opposite Competitive.

Single Player is opposite Group.

 

You can have a casual group, or a casual single player. Like wise, there are competitive single-players here and casual single-players.

 

The goal is to put some kind of separation between casual and competitive players, no matter their tendencies/habits. A soft separation is the best, to keep queue's low on either side.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[TridusSWTOR]

So...

 

Everyone else can see Comfter doesn't want to actually debate or defend his points. Please add them to your ignore list then, so they can continue to believe in the fantasy that no one could possibly oppose their views.

 

 

In the mean time, I'll wait for anyone else to try and convince me solo-only options are the best solution to the PvP problem.

 

Oh you mean he did the same thing you did? When you have been debunked time and time again.

 

Funny how you attached you are trying to "spread the word" like you took some moral high ground...but you did the exact same thing. First step is admitting you are a bad debater.

 

Separate queue's are the answer, the evidence already supports me.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Oh you mean he did the same thing you did? When you have been debunked...

 

Separate queue's are the answer, the evidence already supports me.

 

I have not been debunked, but nice try.

 

Evidence supports you then? Go on, state your case why there needs to be a change, and why solo-bracket is the best way.

 

Lay the evidence out for me then, let's see if you really think you can debate this time. Only this time when you lose, I hope you have the maturity to see it, instead of your pathetic barbs.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[vimm]

This thread gives me cancer.

[cashogy_reborn]

Very well might be. Because I don't know how a ratings system might be done, I might be over imagining the difficulties involved. I do know that it will call into question class balance, and I think back to thread after thread after thread that has been posted in this game and others in regards to that. Game companies have been struggling with it for years and according to many players, still haven't gotten it right. It might be especially difficult to reconcile solo ratings and team ratings. A certain class and or player might fare very poorly in solo pug play, but excel at team play. Not to mention having a variety of team mates.

But I allow there is a solution out there somewhere. Let's hope Bioware stumbles upon it.

 

gonna have to disagree with you on that point.

 

i main'd a dps Merc from launch until about halfway between 1.6 and 1.7, where i leveled a powertech so i could actually do RWZ (still played the Merc as a healer for regs tho). i now main a commando, and am leveling my merc and sniper on the side (merc/mando is obviously in a much better plce post 2.0 tho)

 

Merc was indisputably the worst DPS class in PvP. yet i was able to regularly match and/or flat out beat almost every i encountered in regs. I even was successful with it RWZ, but once my main guild lost a lot of members i was left without a team.

 

a highly skilled player will overcome class balance issues. likewise, a poorly skill player using an overpowered class will still play pretty poorly.

[Vral_Haas]

The main problem I see with all this is that we are trying to find the all mighty solution to the issue.

So let's try again and start this from some point. Who is BioWare aiming for WZs? The all out PVP? The casual PVP? Solo PVP? Group PVP?

As someone else said before we can't have it all. Because as BW can get a solution to any of the above groups problems with PVP system, that solution will (almost surely) be a new problem to any other group.

 

We have this groups I think:

- solo PVP.

- 2-4 group PVP.

- 8 group PVP.

 

And 3 PVP "competitive" classes:

- Casual

- Moderate

- Hardcore

 

So a system that benefits solo - casual PVPers, will surely not be good to the oposite 8-players hardcore or 4-players "premade".

 

And then, there's the ranking system. Say there's a perfectly crafted system that takes notice of all your WZ played, against who, how much damage done/received in each WZ, objectives such as defend a base and all that, and separates the experienced PVPer from the new to the PVP game by giving all some kind of ranking stat.

With that almost flawless system, you will have the same issue that we have now. Long waitings, premade vs pugs and people that are not that good but like PVP a lot and go into WZs grouped in the same WZ with players that are experienced and who know how to do things.

 

So, as I said at the start, we should know what's the real aim of WZs for BioWare, and then discussing solutions would be at least easier or better directed.

[Sziroten]

That's the same advantage of a pre-made. On a lesser scale, but still the same advantage.

Like I said, you can't have it both ways. If you want to keep "casual" and "pre-made" separate, then that's exactly what you have to do.

 

Only morons which don't understand that premades are not = auto win wish for this change because it's much easier to argue that you lost because of a premade and not because you were playing together with ****** player/ are a ****** player yourself.

 

Adding more brackets will in fact increase the queue time on server, maybe not on high pop server but surely on low pop server. Furthermore not being able to group with a friend outside the game becaue I have to solo queue as I have to be in a 4 or 8-man premade is really a utterly stupid idea you hopefully didn't think through as it's as annoying to regroup after each single warzone because like we had it at some point until they finally changed it.

[Vasagi]

It's simple, no matter what the elitists say on the pro-premade side: they want to farm you. They want to gloat, and they want be the "cool kids" in high school who can belittle and insult anyone who isn't on the inside. There is a reason they stack tanks and heals. They don't want to compete. They want to "outsmart" you, spending 10 times as long to re-roll, re-spec their crew skills, and re-gear to always be in the overpowered corner of the game. They want to justify the hundreds of hours they spend.

 

There is a reason they stack 54 crafted gear, and use anything they call a "glitch" which is in reality an exploit. They want to be snarky and rude. There is a reason they talk down to anyone they don't know.

 

I can only speak from my own experience, but talking to these people on voicechat or guildchat is talking to all the least pleasant, rude, arrogant clowns you have avoided since you were 13. If you don't fall in line with their old high school social structure, you are pushed out. You wouldn't hang out with these people after work or outside of family meetings, so why would you tolerate these egos and attitudes in a game you play for fun?

 

Don't be too bent, premade fanboys! The casuals are quitting in droves, and soon you won't have to tolerate puggers with your premades, and you won't have to tolerate baddies in your pvp pool. The 90 min queues will be totally worth it.

[akabane_k]

It's simple, no matter what the elitists say on the pro-premade side: they want to farm you. They want to gloat, and they want be the "cool kids" in high school who can belittle and insult anyone who isn't on the inside. There is a reason they stack tanks and heals. They don't want to compete. They want to "outsmart" you, spending 10 times as long to re-roll, re-spec their crew skills, and re-gear to always be in the overpowered corner of the game. They want to justify the hundreds of hours they spend.

 

There is a reason they stack 54 crafted gear, and use anything they call a "glitch" which is in reality an exploit. They want to be snarky and rude. There is a reason they talk down to anyone they don't know.

 

I can only speak from my own experience, but talking to these people on voicechat or guildchat is talking to all the least pleasant, rude, arrogant clowns you have avoided since you were 13. If you don't fall in line with their old high school social structure, you are pushed out. You wouldn't hang out with these people after work or outside of family meetings, so why would you tolerate these egos and attitudes in a game you play for fun?

 

Don't be too bent, premade fanboys! The casuals are quitting in droves, and soon you won't have to tolerate puggers with your premades, and you won't have to tolerate baddies in your pvp pool. The 90 min queues will be totally worth it.

 

So they belittle and insult, like you.

They don't want to compete, like everyone that wants them in a seperte queue.

they talk down to anyone they don't know, like this rant of yours.

 

But yes, they are such horrible people for trying to win a game, they should get ashamed of themselves.

[maverickmatt]

So they belittle and insult, like you.

They don't want to compete, like everyone that wants them in a seperte queue.

they talk down to anyone they don't know, like this rant of yours.

 

But yes, they are such horrible people for trying to win a game, they should get ashamed of themselves.

 

While I patiently wait for Bioware to fix what they broke this morning with the patch (launcher crashes at 8% install), I thought I'd reply to this poster...

 

Players who want premades in a separate queue do not want them there because they don't want to compete. On the contrary, they want them there so they CAN compete.

 

His "rant" isn't "talking down" to anyone. He is stating his experience, and it seems to be a common one.

 

No one should "get ashamed"....

 

Please, if you have nothing constructive to add to this discussion, stay out of it. The poster above you was stating his experiences with premade guild groups, and all you did was belittle him as if his experience was any less valid than anyone elses here.

[HuaRya]

After PVP'ing for 5+ months I share your exact sentiment. The devs seem to placate to this cliquish behavior. As far as the voicechat behavior you can hear it in their self ingratiating videos they make. Any thread made concerning a solo queue is attacked because they know their premade culture will be herded off to a corner of pvp drama and all.

 

It's simple, no matter what the elitists say on the pro-premade side: they want to farm you. They want to gloat, and they want be the "cool kids" in high school who can belittle and insult anyone who isn't on the inside. There is a reason they stack tanks and heals. They don't want to compete. They want to "outsmart" you, spending 10 times as long to re-roll, re-spec their crew skills, and re-gear to always be in the overpowered corner of the game. They want to justify the hundreds of hours they spend.

[akabane_k]

While I patiently wait for Bioware to fix what they broke this morning with the patch (launcher crashes at 8% install), I thought I'd reply to this poster...

 

Players who want premades in a separate queue do not want them there because they don't want to compete. On the contrary, they want them there so they CAN compete.

 

His "rant" isn't "talking down" to anyone. He is stating his experience, and it seems to be a common one.

 

No one should "get ashamed"....

 

Please, if you have nothing constructive to add to this discussion, stay out of it. The poster above you was stating his experiences with premade guild groups, and all you did was belittle him as if his experience was any less valid than anyone elses here.

 

My experience with pugs is that they are mostly stupid, lazy, blame others, don't know their class or opponents, can't play objectives, have tunnel vision, and think half the things that beat them are "hacks". This is my experience and is no less valid than his. Now tell me, does your biased opinion allow you to realize I am doing the same thing as him, or will you insist I am bashing pugs, while defending his right to bash premades.

 

He belittles premades, and I belittle him. Yet you call that unfair. But I suppose it fits with your definition of competition, which is to only fight against those that purposely weaken themselves by not grouping together as a team in a team game.

[maverickmatt]

But I suppose it fits with your definition of competition, which is to only fight against those that purposely weaken themselves by not grouping together as a team in a team game.

 

 

I am fascinated that you can discern my definition of competition without explicitly reading it.

 

I will, one more time just for you, state the problem and why it must be a blanket solution:

 

The problem is not now nor has it ever been the casual player for whom this game is centered around.

 

The problem is overzealous, highly advantageous, well practiced TEAMS playing against those of us who are not on a TEAM.

 

There is a distinction between GROUPS and TEAMS.

 

Your argument is essentially this:

 

Prior to the banning of PED's from nearly every sport on the planet, it was simply just another advantage (like weight training). There were those who used them for recuperation and those who used them to gain a competitive edge. Keep in mind, at this time it was not banned therefore it was available to everyone. There were some who even argued that they shouldn't be banned because they were not harmful to the game or it's integrity. In actuality, it was a cancer...

 

Should those players who chose not to take PED's have to subject themselves to being thoroughly outclassed? We saw the advantages it gave to players, which means it put others at a very distinct disadvantage.

 

Now, are you an advocate for PED's? No, but you ARE an advocate for retaining an advantage as long as you possibly can, no matter the consequences to the game. That puts you on par with the individuals I described above.

 

Premades are not PED's.... well... I guess they are a bit "performance enhancing".

[akabane_k]

I am fascinated that you can discern my definition of competition without explicitly reading it.

 

I will, one more time just for you, state the problem and why it must be a blanket solution:

 

The problem is not now nor has it ever been the casual player for whom this game is centered around.

 

The problem is overzealous, highly advantageous, well practiced TEAMS playing against those of us who are not on a TEAM.

 

There is a distinction between GROUPS and TEAMS.

 

Your argument is essentially this:

 

Prior to the banning of PED's from nearly every sport on the planet, it was simply just another advantage (like weight training). There were those who used them for recuperation and those who used them to gain a competitive edge. Keep in mind, at this time it was not banned therefore it was available to everyone. There were some who even argued that they shouldn't be banned because they were not harmful to the game or it's integrity. In actuality, it was a cancer...

 

Should those players who chose not to take PED's have to subject themselves to being thoroughly outclassed? We saw the advantages it gave to players, which means it put others at a very distinct disadvantage.

 

Now, are you an advocate for PED's? No, but you ARE an advocate for retaining an advantage as long as you possibly can, no matter the consequences to the game. That puts you on par with the individuals I described above.

 

Premades are not PED's.... well... I guess they are a bit "performance enhancing".

 

PED are illegal because they can cause long term damage to a person's body, there are many other legal ways to increase performance.

 

Bioware purposefully put in a group queue and made it easier to use. This is about as far from using an illegal advantage as possible.

 

Your analogy is bad. The reality is more like people showing up to a track meet in basketball shoes and complaining about people wearing spikes.

[maverickmatt]

PED are illegal because they can cause long term damage to a person's body, there are many other legal ways to increase performance.

 

Bioware purposefully put in a group queue and made it easier to use. This is about as far from using an illegal advantage as possible.

 

Your analogy is bad. The reality is more like people showing up to a track meet in basketball shoes and complaining about people wearing spikes.

 

 

PED's are illegal NOW. We know NOW the harmful effects they have.

 

 

I specifically referenced a time when they were NOT illegal, and were viewed as just another training advantage.

 

Reading comprehension is your friend, good sir.

 

As your for analogy, it is not in the slightest like that.

 

Spikes are standard gear for track meets. Premades are NOT standard gear for PvP.

[TridusSWTOR]

So they belittle and insult, like you.

They don't want to compete, like everyone that wants them in a seperte queue.

they talk down to anyone they don't know, like this rant of yours.

 

But yes, they are such horrible people for trying to win a game, they should get ashamed of themselves.

 

Looks like someone is defensive, I guess the truth does hurt.

[TridusSWTOR]

My experience with pugs is that they are mostly stupid, lazy, blame others, don't know their class or opponents, can't play objectives, have tunnel vision, and think half the things that beat them are "hacks". This is my experience and is no less valid than his. Now tell me, does your biased opinion allow you to realize I am doing the same thing as him, or will you insist I am bashing pugs, while defending his right to bash premades.

 

He belittles premades, and I belittle him. Yet you call that unfair. But I suppose it fits with your definition of competition, which is to only fight against those that purposely weaken themselves by not grouping together as a team in a team game.

 

More tantrum's being thrown with onlly insults to back him up. Seems the poster you were complaining about just got his view points confirmed.

 

Thanks for showing that to everyone though.

[TridusSWTOR]

I have not been debunked, but nice try.

 

Evidence supports you then? Go on, state your case why there needs to be a change, and why solo-bracket is the best way.

 

Lay the evidence out for me then, let's see if you really think you can debate this time. Only this time when you lose, I hope you have the maturity to see it, instead of your pathetic barbs.

 

This time when I lose? Since I already won before? Yes I agree, I have disproved you before.

 

Look at the current state of PVP, that's my proof. Do you even still play the game or are you going to leave?

 

So where is you're proof that things are fine and well? I have a feeling I'll be waiting a while, like usual.

[akabane_k]

PED's are illegal NOW. We know NOW the harmful effects they have.

 

 

I specifically referenced a time when they were NOT illegal, and were viewed as just another training advantage.

 

Reading comprehension is your friend, good sir.

 

As your for analogy, it is not in the slightest like that.

 

Spikes are standard gear for track meets. Premades are NOT standard gear for PvP.

 

No, you lack comprehension, I said that there are many ways to increase performance, PED being only one, yet you focus on it because it is illegal. Why not talk about altitude training or specially designed swimsuits? Both legal ways to increase performance, and considered fair.

 

So PEDs are only an unfair advantage because they are illegal, and only cheaters can use them. Before banning there were just like anything else you did to train, so it wasn't any more unfair than anything else. If there is a legal advantage you can take, and you don't; its your own fault for losing.

 

I supposed I shouldn't have assumed you intelligent enough to equate premades with an unfair advantage. Right now, your analogy means they are entirely fair and legal, like PEDs before being banned.

 

And making a team in a team game is standard, as much as you want to deny it.

[akabane_k]

More tantrum's being thrown with onlly insults to back him up. Seems the poster you were complaining about just got his view points confirmed.

 

Thanks for showing that to everyone though.

 

making a ridiculous statement to express the idiocy of hiding behind "experience and opinion" is not a tauntrum, sorry if it was not obvious enough.

 

And it is curious how my insulting pugs is a tantrum while him insulting premades is normal. Your bias is showing, as I knew it would.

[Vasagi]

My experience with pugs is that they are mostly stupid, lazy, blame others, don't know their class or opponents, can't play objectives, have tunnel vision, and think half the things that beat them are "hacks". This is my experience and is no less valid than his. Now tell me, does your biased opinion allow you to realize I am doing the same thing as him, or will you insist I am bashing pugs, while defending his right to bash premades.

 

He belittles premades, and I belittle him. Yet you call that unfair. But I suppose it fits with your definition of competition, which is to only fight against those that purposely weaken themselves by not grouping together as a team in a team game.

 

Fair enough. I solo queue a lot, and from what I see about 1/3 of the puggers are awful. I'm not going to speculate why. You can base your opinions on anything you would like, I base mine off of past experience. I have been PvPing in MMOs for almost 10 years, both hardcore and casually, and that is where I have formed my opinions.

 

It's frustrating for EVERYONE when bad players cause a WZ loss. The difference is when you give one team a random chance to have bad players, no tanks, no healers, or totally undergeared characters, but the other team is given every advantage, it is no longer "competitive", it's ego stroking.

 

The best analogy I can think of is gambling. You are at a table playing poker. You can handpick 4 out of 5 cards, and 1 card is assigned randomly. The players you are against have all of their cards assigned randomly. Do you call that skill?

Edited June 25, 2013 by Vasagi

[akabane_k]

Fair enough. I solo queue a lot, and from what I see about 1/3 of the puggers are awful. I'm not going to speculate why. You can base your opinions on anything you would like, I base mine off of past experience. I have been PvPing in MMOs for almost 10 years, both hardcore and casually, and that is where I have formed my opinions.

 

It's frustrating for EVERYONE when bad players cause a WZ loss. The difference is when you give one team a random chance to have bad players, no tanks, no healers, or totally undergeared characters, but the other team is given every advantage, it is no longer "competitive", it's ego stroking.

 

The best analogy I can think of is gambling. You are at a table playing poker. You can handpick 4 out of 5 cards, and 1 card is assigned randomly. The players you are against have all of their cards assigned randomly. Do you call that skill?

 

i call that increasing my chances to win if it is legal, which is exactly what skill does. So yes, it is skill.

Sorry if thats a strange concept.

[Vasagi]

i call that increasing my chances to win if it is legal, which is exactly what skill does. So yes, it is skill.

Sorry if thats a strange concept.

 

When you have a tremendous communication, class, and gear imbalance in favor of one team, skill becomes irrelevant. Call it whatever you want, it's not competition, it's game mastur-bation. It's not any different than using a cheat code or playing a game on easy mode.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Vasagi