Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Astarica]

Quote taken from this part: How far should you go?

 

"So what lengths should a player go to in order to win? A player should use any tournament legal move available to him that maximizes his chances of winning the game." ------Sirlin

 

Now I'm not entirely familiar with the situation you described, but his words about what makes a Scrub are dead on. Also, since the games ToS bars using macros and hacks it's clearly not a "tournament" legal move.

 

It's easy to talk about some grand truth of the universe if it's not your skin that's on the line. I'm pretty sure he has said raids are totally unfair to soloer because he's a soloer. The concept is sound, sure, but the guy saying this is a total hypocrite. If he plays SWTOR, he's probably going to be someone complaining about premades are overpowered, given he totally fits the profile of a solo queuer.

 

At anyway, premades do offer a considerable advantage because class balance is not something you can easily fix and premades tend to capitalize this, or at least the ones worth remembering certainly know what classes are the strongest. This is a symptom of poor game balance, though lately it's been better just because the balance has been so bad that everyone's rerolled as healers so PUG vs Premade is actually pretty fair from a class composition point of view. If premades have better gear/skill/whatever, then they deserve to win, and with class composition mostly eliminated, that's not even a certainty anymore.

[Doomsdaycomes]

It's easy to talk about some grand truth of the universe if it's not your skin that's on the line. I'm pretty sure he has said raids are totally unfair to soloer because he's a soloer. The concept is sound, sure, but the guy saying this is a total hypocrite. If he plays SWTOR, he's probably going to be someone complaining about premades are overpowered, given he totally fits the profile of a solo queuer.

 

Can you clarify who you are speaking of? Myself, the player I quoted, or Sirlin? I don't see where anyone has mentioned raids vs. Solo'ers, or any thing indicating Sirlin's likely tendencies if he played an MMO so... <.< Not sure what you're on about mate?

 

At anyway, premades do offer a considerable advantage because class balance is not something you can easily fix and premades tend to capitalize this, or at least the ones worth remembering certainly know what classes are the strongest. This is a symptom of poor game balance, though lately it's been better just because the balance has been so bad that everyone's rerolled as healers so PUG vs Premade is actually pretty fair from a class composition point of view. If premades have better gear/skill/whatever, then they deserve to win, and with class composition mostly eliminated, that's not even a certainty anymore.

 

I think this part makes sense and you seem to be mostly agreeing with my thoughts so... no comment?

[Arkerus]

POT5 was pretty gosh darn awful last night with 2 or 3 imp guild rotating through the queue. Their 3 and 4 person premades will always end up together.

 

Jumped on to do my daily and get off. Took forever and gained no wins for the weekly. Reps were getting smashed left and right.

 

I would pay Biwoare good money to allow me to solo queue-only on nights I just want to get on and run my dailies without having to spam fleet, find a group, deal with leavers, etc.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Arkerus

[Doomsdaycomes]

I would pay Biwoare good money to allow me to solo queue-only on nights I just want to get on and run my dailies without having to spam fleet, find a group, deal with leavers, etc.

 

Isn't that considered borderline Paying to Win? Giving a company money in exchange for making your dailies easier?

 

Consequentially, I'd pay Bioware good money to make Flashpoints solo-able on those nights I just want to get in, do my daily/weeklies, and not have to worry if there's a wait the queue for another Dps, have to respec to get in as a healer, deal with afkers, leavers, and that one healer who spends more time Dps'ing than keeping the Tank alive.

 

I get that it can be frustrating to be beaten and struggle to get your daily/weeklies done, but if you want the rewards you still either have to do the optimal/best way to do something, or suffer the hardships of doing it "your" way.

[Alizaro]

All I have to say is, I'm embarrassed for the people responsible for keeping this thread alive. Last post here.

I've been called a no lifer for killing people in open world pvp but anyone trying to keep this going is way more a no lifer than I will ever be.

[Astarica]

Can you clarify who you are speaking of? Myself, the player I quoted, or Sirlin? I don't see where anyone has mentioned raids vs. Solo'ers, or any thing indicating Sirlin's likely tendencies if he played an MMO so... <.< Not sure what you're on about mate?

 

 

 

I think this part makes sense and you seem to be mostly agreeing with my thoughts so... no comment?

 

Sorry I thought you're familiar with Sirlin since you quoted from him. Yeah those comments are related to Sirlin. He seems to be like a mini celebrity in gaming and while I don't disagree with what he says in principle, if you know the kinds of stuff he says in general it's just ultra hypocritical because he's likely the first guy to cry about an unfair advantage if he's beaten.

[Comfterbilly]

All I have to say is, I'm embarrassed for the people responsible for keeping this thread alive. Last post here.

I've been called a no lifer for killing people in open world pvp but anyone trying to keep this going is way more a no lifer than I will ever be.

 

Well it's the highest posted thread in PVP and it will likely continue to be until 2.4 in I guess October where the leak is that that's when solo ranked comes out, which needs to be a solo-queue. Personally I think they should add a solo-only toggle for regs too why do premades get to play with people who don't enjoy their company? People who want something to do with people who want nothing to do with them are basically cyber date rapists taking advantage of an easy situation. So they strenuously object!

 

If solo-ranked is just backfilling, that will be the last straw for me and a lot of people I'm sure since the PVE sucks and the game engine is buggy as hell.

 

Bottom line, a lot of paying customers want to be separated from a lot of other paying customers but don't worry the premade subs will be in our solo queue anyway. They can say what they want but free wins is all they want and when they have to lose to other groups who put up a fight, they're going to quit premading because they're just in it for the free wins.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[cashogy_reborn]

here is another screenshot from a game i did early today.

 

http://i.imgur.com/f5Dsc6P.jpg

 

no obvious premade on my team (all different guilds), vs a 4-man from one of the top imp guilds on PoT5.

 

interpret as you will

 

so nobody cares that a pug team beat a premade?

[Comfterbilly]

so nobody cares that a pug team beat a premade?

Yeah we "know" who you were in a group with.

[Astarica]

so nobody cares that a pug team beat a premade?

 

I don't think premades have as much advantage as people claim. From the position it seems like the premade didn't take you seriously and let you get a position (double side) they cannot possibly retake, showing that stupidity trumps everything.

[cashogy_reborn]

Yeah we "know" who you were in a group with.

 

i queued solo..... so the answer would be myself?

 

I don't think premades have as much advantage as people claim. From the position it seems like the premade didn't take you seriously and let you get a position (double side) they cannot possibly retake, showing that stupidity trumps everything.

 

yeah we took the sides at the beginning, but that is certainly not an unrecoverable situation, especially in regs and for a highly skilled team. that being said, they never attempted to rotate over to west; they just kept trying to hit east which made defending pretty easy.

 

so it may have been they werent taking it very serious since it was regs. but, that undermines the theory many have in this thread that premades are hellbent on destroying pugs.

[Comfterbilly]

i queued solo..... so the answer would be myself?

 

 

 

yeah we took the sides at the beginning, but that is certainly not an unrecoverable situation, especially in regs and for a highly skilled team. that being said, they never attempted to rotate over to west; they just kept trying to hit east which made defending pretty easy.

 

so it may have been they werent taking it very serious since it was regs. but, that undermines the theory many have in this thread that premades are hellbent on destroying pugs.

 

Yeah this one game that we'll take your word on undermines the experience of thousands of players. Maybe we should do the "how do you know there weren't any premades on your team" and act like there is some authoritative answer that we can measure scientifically.

 

Any other giant leaps in critical thinking we can add to this curmudgeon?

Edited June 19, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Sharee]

so it may have been they werent taking it very serious since it was regs. but, that undermines the theory many have in this thread that premades are hellbent on destroying pugs.

 

Let's look at that "PUG", shall we.

 

A tank with 300K damage and 400K protection

Two healers with 800K healing each

DPS with 600K and 400K damage.

 

Yeah that sure represents the average PUG that gets steamrolled by a premade, which this thread is about

 

You may not have queued together, but that pug might as well have been a premade, composition and performance-wise. I don't think anybody doubted a premade can be beat when all the right stars are aligned.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Sharee

[Astarica]

i queued solo..... so the answer would be myself?

 

 

 

yeah we took the sides at the beginning, but that is certainly not an unrecoverable situation, especially in regs and for a highly skilled team. that being said, they never attempted to rotate over to west; they just kept trying to hit east which made defending pretty easy.

 

so it may have been they werent taking it very serious since it was regs. but, that undermines the theory many have in this thread that premades are hellbent on destroying pugs.

 

You can talk about how to overcome double sides in theory but it's just not a position that's reasonably recoverable unless you're way stronger than the opposing team. But yeah, if premades are hellbent on destroying pugs there's no way they'd ever make such a silly mistake because that'd be really embarassing to have this pulled on you.

[Astarica]

Let's look at that "PUG", shall we.

 

A tank with 300K damage and 400K protection

Two healers with 800K healing each

DPS with 600K and 400K damage.

 

Yeah that sure represents the average PUG that gets steamrolled by a premade, which this thread is about

 

You may not have queued together, but that pug might as well have been a premade, composition and performance-wise. I don't think anybody doubted a premade can be beat when all the right stars are aligned.

 

I found nothing out of ordinary with these numbers especially if you've some assurance that your healers are good. What people don't get is bad (or good) healers deflate/inflate the rest of your team's numbers, because if your healers suck you sure won't be getting much protection or damage as you'd be dead. The reverse is also true. Sometimes you might see a guy do 200K damage and died 15 times and you say that guy sucks, but you really don't know if his DPS low because he's bad or because he died 15 times. And no, not dying is never an option from a DPS point of view unless you're just hiding way in the back.

 

Now of course having no healers makes life very tough, but due to healing being overpowered, everyone and their brother is playing a healer now and it's really not that hard to play a healer especially if you're an Op.

[cashogy_reborn]

Let's look at that "PUG", shall we.

 

A tank with 300K damage and 400K protection

Two healers with 800K healing each

DPS with 600K and 400K damage.

 

Yeah that sure represents the average PUG that gets steamrolled by a premade, which this thread is about

 

You may not have queued together, but that pug might as well have been a premade, composition and performance-wise. I don't think anybody doubted a premade can be beat when all the right stars are aligned.

 

so is this thread only about bad solo players that get beat by premades?

[Comfterbilly]

so is this thread only about bad solo players that get beat by premades?

 

Okay Matlock.

[cashogy_reborn]

Okay Matlock.

 

how would you interpret the post that i quoted?

 

that poster suggests that my example be thrown out b/c it does not fit all the criteria of their complaint (pug group gets beaten badly). its not a "typical pug group", which is a statement i agree with; sadly the typical pug group is terrible.

[Sharee]

so is this thread only about bad solo players that get beat by premades?

 

Were the players in your PUG bad? No.

 

Would they have won if the same players played, but none of them would be playing a healer? No.

 

They still would be good players, but would have lost due to bad team composition, and it would not be fault of any of them, or anything but bad luck.

 

Thus, no, it is not a thread about bad solo players losing. It is about premades having an unfair advantage when facing solo-queued players, due to (including but not limited to) not being subject to random team composition while the solo queued team is.

[cymonguk]

I will start out by saying I was originally on one side of this argument, but have ended up on the other side after thinking about my recent past in gaming.

 

Let's clear some things straight off the bat:

 

1) There are scummy pugrollers. These people are clearly in the reg queues trying to get "free" wins and the associated gear/commendations.

2) There are scummy players. These people will use any advantage they can, having played COD you find players who will turn on any cheat they can, just for the win.

3) There are people who are whiners who don't like being beaten, and if it wasnt the premades they would complain about something else.

 

Originally I was on the side of the poor pugs, reason is that currently I am soloing due to circumstances, I can't find a guild or regular set of players who play at the same time as me that fit with my play style. (I enjoy competition and having a laugh, but I play at odd times due to work).

 

However I started to think about why I was annoyed by the premades, and being smacked around all the time compared to the times I played on COD. Those queues were much more weighted in favour of teams, and yet when I saw those players/teams I used to enjoy the fight even more if I was solo or a pair. So there appears to be a few things that are causing problems as far as I can see:

 

SWTOR PvP is an objective based game. This in itself is not a problem, but being objective based means that communication, composition and teamwork are the most important factors in the game. Skill of individual players and gear is not as much of a problem. People who claim that chat box is a replacement for TeamSpeak/Mumble talk out of their arse. I would happily setup an 8 man with 8 level 50s on lowest gear, using teamspeak, against any 8 man with top gear without comms. having played in team CoD premades I can say we could stomp over everyone even other players who were using hacks to see through walls, etc , even that advantage was outweighed by our better teamwork.

 

There are a few possible fixes for this:

 

a) Better setup of objective based games- The grouping system should ensure that an 8 man team consists of a reasonable mix of players. When you walk into a WZ with 6 (yes I do not jest) sage healers and two DPS, against pre mades you are never going to have a chance in objective based games.

 

In game voice chat should be implemented. Even if only 40% of people used it (as in COD), then at least there would be half a chance of some team coordination. Without it PUGS are at a huge disadvantage.

 

b) Allow team deathmatch queues - Without the need to complete objectives, the issue of coordination becomes less of a problem. Solo queuers could go into the team deathmatch and run around as much as they wanted. If premades want to run around killing them fine, but it would be possible for two or three good pugs to make it harder for a premade to facestomp.

 

c) Keep PvP objective based only and reduce rewards for high level players. So if I want to play as a premade with friends to have some casual fun, in reg objective based games that's OK. However I shouldnt expect to get lots of commendations and gear if I do so.

 

The principle would be that the more valor you have the less rewards you get if you are simply playing with the best gear and highest expertise available. So if I have a high valor, and 2018 expertise, then I would get a small number of commendations and no gear.

 

I would then offer a second option to those people at the high valor/high expertise level who want to carry on playing with regs. You offer them the option to reset their expertise level for a new rank/title. If they accept then their expertise level gets reset to X (say 1500), but they can then earn more commendations and new gear to boost their expertise again.

 

If good premades wish to get better gear and earn more commendations they can go play ranked.

 

The rewards for premades to go and farm PUGs are too high at the moment, therefore it gets abused, if we make it so that the rewards are lower then people can be split into 1) genuine casual premades who just want to have fun, 2) premades who were farming, but will now need to work harder, either through ranked or lower skills. Of course the premades will still have an advantage if they decide to go to lower expertise, but it will make sure they are working for their "money".

 

Of course this would need boslter fixing to some extent so that PVE gear doesnt give 2000 expertise in the right circumstances, but that is an issue already.

[Doomsdaycomes]

There are a few possible fixes for this:

 

c) Keep PvP objective based only and reduce rewards for high level players. So if I want to play as a premade with friends to have some casual fun, in reg objective based games that's OK. However I shouldnt expect to get lots of commendations and gear if I do so.

 

The principle would be that the more valor you have the less rewards you get if you are simply playing with the best gear and highest expertise available. So if I have a high valor, and 2018 expertise, then I would get a small number of commendations and no gear.

 

As much as every bone in my body screams against punishing players that excel (especially to appease player who choose not to) I have to say this is an idea I could live with if it was tweaked.

 

I think basing it off valor isn't the best idea since high valor is not equal to high skill (even if it should be) nor does it guarantee the player is geared. Unless you reset the "diminishing" rewards every time another gear set came out, Players who have played the longest will be crippled in gearing for no justifiably "fair" reason.

 

That being said, based on some other measure of a players (or groups) ranking, I could see a reduce in comms (not credits, that's fine as it is). Not to the extent you mentioned, but as in all game mechanics test play is the key to balancing that. It's not my favorite idea, but it's live able.

 

However:

 

I do want to stress I'd prefer to see work on a matchmaking system.

 

I'd also -strongly- recommend that accessibility and rewards for ranked be buffed in order to entice groups to go the -extra mile- (Yes, a group willingly stepping out of regular to move into ranked is going the extra mile, they have every right to be in regular if they like) rather than punish/reduce something. Premades/Groups aren't doing anything wrong, and no one likes to be punished unjustly. Maybe a ranked only daily/weekly with a heavy credit addition, since credit flow is the main complaint I see about pvp rewards.

[Doomsdaycomes]

People who want something to do with people who want nothing to do with them are basically cyber date rapists taking advantage of an easy situation. So they strenuously object!

 

First off:

 

If you have ever felt the real, physical threat of being violated by a male through force or drug, you would not make such a comparison. I hope you never do have to suffer through that, so don't ever *********** compare a fictional battlefield you willing entered a queue into to *********** rape!

 

 

Now, I'm going to (against my better judgment) give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't see this portion of a post. I'd you to see your Lynx/Hare comparison used both for the current situation, and what happens in a solo-queue-only option, then try to explain why Solo-only is still a viable answer to the issue of "making the regulars more friendly/accessible to everyone and keeping subs in the game."

 

You said:

 

Ever hear of the lynx-hare cycle? The premades are basically running around in regular, cutting down the pug population. BW should realize, it wants to expand its player base, this open-regs queue is antithetical to their company's needs.

For every predator team queued into regs, there are 4-8 solo players who are t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing every time they have to put up with that.

 

 

• 
   
  
• For every pug that quits, that is one less person who's queuing up into regs. For every person less, that is X-amount of time that gets added to regs queue.
   
  
• For every five minutes that gets added to the queue, there is one pugroller on your premade who is t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing because he's bored because he has no attention span because all he wants is a free lunch and to win and get to play against real people but not have to risk losing.
   
  
• For every one pugroller who quits, that's one more lost guildie who's off to free lunch somewhere else, as the game population dwindles.
  

 

BUT, unlike the pugrollers who will only stick around if what they get is free lunch as easy as possible and if you chew it up for them first all the better, the solo population will explode like rabbits if they don't have to sleep in the same den with lynxes.

 

Other than ignoring the fact you think somehow having friends and farming your gear like everyone else (GM's didn't hand out all of a 'pugrollers' gear) is "free lunch" let's look at this:

 

According to the thread/you Bioware needs/is trying to keep all it's subscriptions and needs to change something because this isn't working:

 

1. According to you, the more PuG's are "preyed" upon by Groups, the more and more they quit.

2. The more PuG's quit, the less available to be in the queue with Groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer groups queue.

4. The longer the queue, the more groups quit.

5. PuG and Group populations decline/go extinct.

 

Assuming that's true, let's insert your suggested answer: A separate PuG queue and a solo+group queue.

 

1. The more PuG's "preyed" upon by groups, the more they move into the PuG-only bracket.

2. The more PuG's that move to the PuG-only bracket, the less available to be in the queue with groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer the group queue.

4. The longer the group queue, the more groups quit.

5. Group Populations decline/go extinct, PuG's thrive.

 

Following your reasoning, your "solution" doesn't solve the damn problem, does it? Bioware is still losing a significant portion of it's subs.

 

Discuss:

[L-RANDLE]

Oh so you admit to making false assumptions.

 

Go you

 

Yep you r sarcasm detector must be broken, we better get Anakin to fix it for you.. Cash already explained the point of my response... Try to find, mkay....

[MahneWarrior]

Re-read the entire conversation from start to finish. If you think population was the point in any of it, you failed.

 

When you are done, let me know.

 

You want match making right? Most people would love a better match making system one that makes sure both teams have healers, and within the same MMR range if TOR had one. Keep things fair and even.

 

Sadly we do not have the server population for that. I mean you think by now people would understand PC gaming by nature is unfair, and in extension PvP. This has everything to do with population no matter how you look at it, without cross server queue no form of viable match making can take place without hindering queue times.

 

Simple as that, no point trying to argue otherwise. Either way both aspects hurt the pvp community, but in the end I would rather have a queue and fight a much better team, then never get a queue at all.

[Cretinus]

You want match making right? Most people would love a better match making system one that makes sure both teams have healers, and within the same MMR range if TOR had one. Keep things fair and even.

 

Sadly we do not have the server population for that. I mean you think by now people would understand PC gaming by nature is unfair, and in extension PvP. This has everything to do with population no matter how you look at it, without cross server queue no form of viable match making can take place without hindering queue times.

 

Simple as that, no point trying to argue otherwise. Either way both aspects hurt the pvp community, but in the end I would rather have a queue and fight a much better team, then never get a queue at all.

 

As long as it is possible to respecc inside WZs, it's completely pointless to try matching teams in terms of healers and/or tanks. People will respecc according to what they think is best for their team and that was it.