Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[TridusSWTOR]

Tridus... the only person you are 'debunking' here is yourself. Please stop before you hurt yourself . No matter how many sarcastic comments you hurl at the people trying to argue sensibly with you, it won't help your cause.

 

As for Comfterbilly, any sympathy I might have had for your 'premade-problem' dissolved into thin air with your mentions of premading being akin to rape. Could you have stooped any lower? I think not.

That, and your obvious problem with girls is disconcerting, to say the least. O.o

I cannot take you seriously.

 

Thumbs up to Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, Jadescythe, and all you others for showing the amount of patience you have shown here. I can safely say I can agree to most (if not all) points you have tributed to this discussion. Sad thing is, no matter how often you state the obvious, some people will never even try to listen.

 

Show me how I am "debunking" myself? Please I'll wait.

 

And I'll be glad to destroy you're argument in the process.

[Comfterbilly]

Tridus... the only person you are 'debunking' here is yourself. Please stop before you hurt yourself . No matter how many sarcastic comments you hurl at the people trying to argue sensibly with you, it won't help your cause.

 

As for Comfterbilly, any sympathy I might have had for your 'premade-problem' dissolved into thin air with your mentions of premading being akin to rape. Could you have stooped any lower? I think not.

That, and your obvious problem with girls is disconcerting, to say the least. O.o

I cannot take you seriously.

 

Thumbs up to Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, Jadescythe, and all you others for showing the amount of patience you have shown here. I can safely say I can agree to most (if not all) points you have tributed to this discussion. Sad thing is, no matter how often you state the obvious, some people will never even try to listen.

 

The only thing Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, and Jadescythe have shown is barely disguised egos and fifty pages of trying to convince the thread that solos don't like them because Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, and Jadescythe are "so talented."

 

If chest thumping is an argument, I guess that makes them "Smackdown Socretes's".

 

Their whole point is to minimize a huge fact - that premades have an enormous advantage over solos in regs, and to magnify a small one - that they think they are really good and that's the "real problem".

 

You step in, acting like a wannabe arbitrator, as if you have an unbiased opinion. You don't. You're just here to justify the chest thumping ought-to-be-playing-Halo mentality.

 

We don't want a queue with premades in it. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE "GOOD"; but because they are taking advantage of an easy win rate at the expense of everyone who otherwise would be able to enjoy the game.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Doomsdaycomes]

The only thing Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, and Jadescythe have shown is barely disguised egos and fifty pages of trying to convince the thread that solos don't like them because Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, and Jadescythe are "so talented."

 

If chest thumping is an argument, I guess that makes them "Smackdown Socretes's".

 

Their whole point is to minimize a huge fact - that premades have an enormous advantage over solos in regs, and to magnify a small one - that they think they are really good and that's the "real problem".

 

Taken from post 3380

 

I am not a good 1 vs 1 player. If anyone who asks me will get the same answer. I don't blame my class (usually a healer), my opponent, how many legacy buffs they have, or the number of skittles I ate yesterday.

 

I think I'm prolly pretty average in teams play too. People tell me I'm good though, so I'll just have to believe them.

 

I could go back further to when I was posting months ago and find at least 2-3 more times I admit to lacking in the 1 vs. 1 area or some other fault. In fact, it's knowing I'm not the best player that has allowed me the success I've had because when other people want to give -me- advice...

 

I Fracking Listen.

 

 

We don't want a queue with premades in it. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE "GOOD"; but because they are taking advantage of an easy win rate at the expense of everyone who otherwise would be able to enjoy the game.

 

I want, I want, I want, me, me, me, I pay 15 bucks so gimme shiny armor and keep all the meanies away from me!

 

They only advantage they take is the fact you do not take advantage and continue to wallow in you scrub mentality. Before you cry I'm insulting you read Playing to Win by Sirlin. It's not an insult, it's just the part of every gamer's evolution.

 

Now answer me something: What is stopping you from joining a group and using the same tools as any of the "meanie" premades?

 

(Edit: Fixed Link)

Edited June 18, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[cycao]

The only thing Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, and Jadescythe have shown is barely disguised egos and fifty pages of trying to convince the thread that solos don't like them because Doomsdaycomes, Cycao, Cashogy, and Jadescythe are "so talented."

 

If chest thumping is an argument, I guess that makes them "Smackdown Socretes's".

 

Their whole point is to minimize a huge fact - that premades have an enormous advantage over solos in regs, and to magnify a small one - that they think they are really good and that's the "real problem".

 

You step in, acting like a wannabe arbitrator, as if you have an unbiased opinion. You don't. You're just here to justify the chest thumping ought-to-be-playing-Halo mentality.

 

We don't want a queue with premades in it. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE "GOOD"; but because they are taking advantage of an easy win rate at the expense of everyone who otherwise would be able to enjoy the game.

 

A single tear runs down my eye i'm touched.

 

The only real advantage is communication which a good solo player can get by with minimal communication with good situational awareness (this includes looking at the ops chat, which I swear some people don't even realize there is such a thing).

 

I would be more than fine with a separation of the queues if queue times could remain somewhat unchanged. Though then a majority of the players would realize just how much they suck when they are still getting rolled over in a solo queue (which they are getting a ranked queue with 2.4). So no, I don't think these pointless threads will stop even if they offer what would be a 4th queue (non ranked solo only).

 

And yes, I am that good.

[L-RANDLE]

Yup of course, because objectives don't win games.

 

LOL RITE BRO?

 

lol...

 

l....o....l

 

/facepalm

Yup I was referring to that when I posted that.....

[L-RANDLE]

Highlight exactly where the poster mentioned premades.

 

I'll wait.

 

This should be fun.

 

/facepalm again

 

but I think you somehow figured out what I was referring to on that one....

 

Reading between the lines, better you must do....

[Comfterbilly]

I Fracking Listen.

I want, I want, I want, me, me, me, I pay 15 bucks so gimme shiny armor and keep all the meanies away from me!

 

They only advantage they take is the fact you do not take advantage and continue to wallow in you scrub mentality. Before you cry I'm insulting you read Playing to Win by Sirlin. It's not an insult, it's just the part of every gamer's evolution.

 

Now answer me something: What is stopping you from joining a group and using the same tools as any of the "meanie" premades?

 

(Edit: Fixed Link)

 

That idiot cashogy thinks its cool to say "frak" all the time like he's the only person in the world to read a Lobo comic book and not realize it makes him look like a choad... Yeah lets just leave it at that but, people who do that are choads. Let's leave choading to the choads, in that case. Its like, a thing to do for people who take themselves so seriously, they don't realize it's ridiculous.

 

Where was I... Oh yeah.

 

I don't think playing in a premade is fun. When I queue in with a good premade on both sides I still usually outscore most people or top of the list for objectives. I get invited to premades, I say no thank you. I made my own guild just to stop being invited.

 

Whatever you think of solo playing - people want to play solo. You might like to play in a group, they don't want to. Sometimes I do like to group with a friend of mine but its just the two of us. I remember how it was with the guilds I've been in in the past, its boring. I have a day job, I don't log on to do chores. Peole play solo for a lot of reasons.

 

Just not being taken advantage of, is all they want. They're paying their subs just like you. When they the solo player want to queue and there is a dozen coordinated, 4-man ranked teams with full gear and all the right classes, that's called taking advantage.

 

Premades are so coordinated? Fine - lets see some coordination. I see LOTS of them all on the same time. How'd they like to group up and go 8 on 8? BUT, they don't. Because, they don't have to. BW lets them farm pugs, pugrollers take the path of least resistence, at the expense of everyone. Population dwindles, PVP suffers.

 

Ever hear of the lynx-hare cycle? The premades are basically running around in regular, cutting down the pug population. BW should realize, it wants to expand its player base, this open-regs queue is antithetical to their company's needs.

For every predator team queued into regs, there are 4-8 solo players who are t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing every time they have to put up with that.

 

 

• 
   
  
• For every pug that quits, that is one less person who's queuing up into regs. For every person less, that is X-amount of time that gets added to regs queue.
   
  
• For every five minutes that gets added to the queue, there is one pugroller on your premade who is t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing because he's bored because he has no attention span because all he wants is a free lunch and to win and get to play against real people but not have to risk losing.
   
  
• For every one pugroller who quits, that's one more lost guildie who's off to free lunch somewhere else, as the game population dwindles.
  

 

BUT, unlike the pugrollers who will only stick around if what they get is free lunch as easy as possible and if you chew it up for them first all the better, the solo population will explode like rabbits if they don't have to sleep in the same den with lynxes.

[Comfterbilly]

The only real advantage is communication

 

False. Where to stop reading ^

[L-RANDLE]

Playing to Win by Sirlin.

 

<3

Coming from a SF player... that's epic...

[Jadescythe]

They only advantage they take is the fact you do not take advantage and continue to wallow in you scrub mentality. Before you cry I'm insulting you read Playing to Win by Sirlin. It's not an insult, it's just the part of every gamer's evolution.

 

Having read this the last time you posted it, this guy is the definition of a scrub to the T.

 

"I want premades out of my queue for using the tools available to them". Heaven forbid anyone cross heals, staggers CC, or manages to not use predation at the same time as someone else. That next level stuff should be banned from warzones to make them more fun for me.

[cycao]

False. Where to stop reading ^

 

Tell me, what else does a premade have over the average pug, and please don't say gear.

[L-RANDLE]

Having read this the last time you posted it, this guy is the definition of a scrub to the T.

 

"I want premades out of my queue for using the tools available to them". Heaven forbid anyone cross heals, staggers CC, or manages to not use predation at the same time as someone else. That next level stuff should be banned from warzones to make them more fun for me.

 

I thought if I used "scrub" I would be dating myself... Good thing it's still being put to good use...

[Comfterbilly]

Tell me, what else does a premade have over the average pug, and please don't say gear.

 

Would you say group composition is advantageous?

[Astarica]

Would you say group composition is advantageous?

 

Group composition is very advantageous, but currently the balance is extremely in favor of healers that it is no longer possible to hide this, resulting a relatively even playing field. Even a very casual observer can notice that healing dominates the WZs right now. There are still better group compositions, but you're unlikely to get into a situation where your side has no healers versus 2 on the other side. That was common prior to 2.0 when you faced a premade, but that was because healers weren't as strong back then (though it still sucked when you're on the side with 0 of them).

[Astarica]

They only advantage they take is the fact you do not take advantage and continue to wallow in you scrub mentality. Before you cry I'm insulting you read Playing to Win by Sirlin. It's not an insult, it's just the part of every gamer's evolution.

(Edit: Fixed Link)

 

Um, this is a guy who would try to cheat and complain when he gets tossed for cheating because it wasn't spelled out precisely. That is in fact his argument why the Chinese badminton team shoudl not have been thrown out for throwing a game, despite the rule clearly gives the referee the power to throw out a team that's deliberately trying to throw a game.

 

Now premades isn't the same thing as what he's talking about because having premades isn't against the rule, but that's a very poor person to quote from. That guy would totally support using hacks and macros to gain an edge in PvP too.

[cycao]

Would you say group composition is advantageous?

 

Not really, no. I run into enough premades when I am with friends or solo queuing and its not to often you see teams run what some would say be a 'perfect' group comp which would be one tank, one healer and two dps. Most of the tanks I know usually do not play that roll in regs. Heck I play madness assassin more often than anything and that is probably the worst spec in the game right now.

[Zhaker]

What I love about this thread is that the Puggers dont really take accountability for them to try and beat the premades.

 

Instead they view Premades as "unfair" and thus they want them eliminated for fairer balance. This way a group doesn't destroy you, but you'll get some random chance of winning which is probably going to be low here.

 

If a faction becomes too dominate at that point, are you folks going to ask Bioware to split up WZ further with empire-republic players vs empire-republic players?

 

I mean when will Puggers attempt to play WZ here and not DM? Maybe if they concentrate on objectives Premades wont be such a "Unfair" situation would it?.

[TridusSWTOR]

/facepalm again

 

but I think you somehow figured out what I was referring to on that one....

 

Reading between the lines, better you must do....

 

Oh so you admit to making false assumptions.

 

Go you

[cashogy_reborn]

here is another screenshot from a game i did early today.

 

http://i.imgur.com/f5Dsc6P.jpg

 

no obvious premade on my team (all different guilds), vs a 4-man from one of the top imp guilds on PoT5.

 

interpret as you will

[Zohkar]

/facepalm again

 

but I think you somehow figured out what I was referring to on that one....

 

Reading between the lines, better you must do....

 

Actually I wasn't implying anything other then before you call a person bad their could be other circumstances for them to preform well. Yes gear is one factor (bolster attempts to fix that problem), how your computer receive's and interupts the information and then relays that information back is another (this is what I was commenting on because I fall victim to this one) and skill of the player (which can be any reason). I personally didn't start pvping till I was level 50 then again once the level increase was 55 (after taking 4 months off from pvp because I got tired of being rolf-stomped).

 

I am very situationally aware for a pve player, I am old school raider who remembers when you didn't have macros, voice communication and relied on people to know what they where doing or you always failed. In todays age, it's totally different game style with so many things available to a player. However, not all people will be forth coming to help another if they are not in their guild or invite them to a group when they have guild-friends on. Computers are not all created equally either and when you fight are fighting that, plus skill, plus gear (and now I will mention it) groups of players (aka a pre-made) your gaming experience can get ruined.

 

I play a healer on my main pvp character and nothing I can do to change the outcome other then heal as best as I can and the team that was on the opposing side was made of a good compensation against 8 random pugs that where just getting destroyed. I couldn't heal people fast enough because they where dropping in 3-5 seconds for pretty much all their health, me included (29k corruption sorc [5 fps - people that stealth stay invisible, all I see are sabers or blasters running around]). Thats when people start to complain and start dropping and then accusing each other for why they are losing.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I don't think playing in a premade is fun. When I queue in with a good premade on both sides I still usually outscore most people or top of the list for objectives. I get invited to premades, I say no thank you. I made my own guild just to stop being invited.

 

Whatever you think of solo playing - people want to play solo. You might like to play in a group, they don't want to. Sometimes I do like to group with a friend of mine but its just the two of us. I remember how it was with the guilds I've been in in the past, its boring. I have a day job, I don't log on to do chores. Peole play solo for a lot of reasons.

 

Because fun and boring are subjective, please don't say "People" want to play solo. The only one you speak for above is you.

 

Now then, we can agree that all games have an objective, (whether that objective is fun or not is subjective). And like it or not, there can only be one optimal way to that objective and one or two decent ways. If you specifically do not find the best/good way(s) fun, that's alright...

 

...But the game still only has an objective and one optimal way to reach it. Whether you think building gear is fun or not, it's part of the games objective. Whether you think leveling is fun or not, it's part of the games objective. Whether or not you think playing in a team is fun or not... it's still part of the objective.

 

PuG-only is as much of a play style as Clicking your attacks vs. Keybinds. One's optimal, one's not.

 

Just not being taken advantage of, is all they want. They're paying their subs just like you. When they the solo player want to queue and there is a dozen coordinated, 4-man ranked teams with full gear and all the right classes, that's called taking advantage..

 

If it was just about not being taken advantage of, the PuG only bracket would accept less rewards right?

 

(and before you cry "See, all they care about is hoarding advantages!" it has as much to do with "fairness" as lowering your competition's level. You want things to be fair right?).

 

Premades are so coordinated? Fine - lets see some coordination. I see LOTS of them all on the same time. How'd they like to group up and go 8 on 8? BUT, they don't. Because, they don't have to. BW lets them farm pugs, pugrollers take the path of least resistence, at the expense of everyone. Population dwindles, PVP suffers..

 

You can not ask someone to walk two steps if you are only willing to walk one. Stop throwing blame, take responsibility.

 

Ever hear of the lynx-hare cycle? The premades are basically running around in regular, cutting down the pug population. BW should realize, it wants to expand its player base, this open-regs queue is antithetical to their company's needs.

For every predator team queued into regs, there are 4-8 solo players who are t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing every time they have to put up with that.

 

 

• 
   
  
• For every pug that quits, that is one less person who's queuing up into regs. For every person less, that is X-amount of time that gets added to regs queue.
   
  
• For every five minutes that gets added to the queue, there is one pugroller on your premade who is t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing because he's bored because he has no attention span because all he wants is a free lunch and to win and get to play against real people but not have to risk losing.
   
  
• For every one pugroller who quits, that's one more lost guildie who's off to free lunch somewhere else, as the game population dwindles.
  

 

BUT, unlike the pugrollers who will only stick around if what they get is free lunch as easy as possible and if you chew it up for them first all the better, the solo population will explode like rabbits if they don't have to sleep in the same den with lynxes.

 

I've never heard this argument before. (/sarcasm).

 

Other than ignoring the fact you think somehow having friends and farming your gear like everyone else (GM's didn't hand out all of a 'pugrollers' gear) is "free lunch" let's look at this:

 

According to the thread/you Bioware needs/is trying to keep all it's subscriptions and needs to change something because this isn't working:

 

1. According to you, the more PuG's are "preyed" upon by Groups, the more and more they quit.

2. The more PuG's quit, the less available to be in the queue with Groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer groups queue.

4. The longer the queue, the more groups quit.

5. PuG and Group populations decline/go extinct.

 

Assuming that's true, let's insert your suggested answer: A separate PuG queue and a solo+group queue.

 

1. The more PuG's "preyed" upon by groups, the more they move into the PuG-only bracket.

2. The more PuG's that move to the PuG-only bracket, the less available to be in the queue with groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer the group queue.

4. The longer the group queue, the more groups quit.

5. Group Populations decline/go extinct, PuG's thrive.

 

Following your reasoning, your "solution" doesn't solve the damn problem, does it? Bioware is still losing a significant portion of it's subs.

 

So... let's see you continue to argue the PuG-only bracket is the solution we all need.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Um, this is a guy who would try to cheat and complain when he gets tossed for cheating because it wasn't spelled out precisely. That is in fact his argument why the Chinese badminton team shoudl not have been thrown out for throwing a game, despite the rule clearly gives the referee the power to throw out a team that's deliberately trying to throw a game.

 

Now premades isn't the same thing as what he's talking about because having premades isn't against the rule, but that's a very poor person to quote from. That guy would totally support using hacks and macros to gain an edge in PvP too.

 

Quote taken from this part: How far should you go?

 

"So what lengths should a player go to in order to win? A player should use any tournament legal move available to him that maximizes his chances of winning the game." ------Sirlin

 

Now I'm not entirely familiar with the situation you described, but his words about what makes a Scrub are dead on. Also, since the games ToS bars using macros and hacks it's clearly not a "tournament" legal move.

[Doomsdaycomes]

<3

Coming from a SF player... that's epic...

 

^_^

 

Real turning point in my PvP "career" (yes, that's a joke) is the moment I realized I was playing by my own set of rules and wondering why the hell everyone else was so cheap.

[cashogy_reborn]

Actually I wasn't implying anything other then before you call a person bad their could be other circumstances for them to preform well. Yes gear is one factor (bolster attempts to fix that problem), how your computer receive's and interupts the information and then relays that information back is another (this is what I was commenting on because I fall victim to this one) and skill of the player (which can be any reason). I personally didn't start pvping till I was level 50 then again once the level increase was 55 (after taking 4 months off from pvp because I got tired of being rolf-stomped).

 

I am very situationally aware for a pve player, I am old school raider who remembers when you didn't have macros, voice communication and relied on people to know what they where doing or you always failed. In todays age, it's totally different game style with so many things available to a player. However, not all people will be forth coming to help another if they are not in their guild or invite them to a group when they have guild-friends on. Computers are not all created equally either and when you fight are fighting that, plus skill, plus gear (and now I will mention it) groups of players (aka a pre-made) your gaming experience can get ruined.

 

I play a healer on my main pvp character and nothing I can do to change the outcome other then heal as best as I can and the team that was on the opposing side was made of a good compensation against 8 random pugs that where just getting destroyed. I couldn't heal people fast enough because they where dropping in 3-5 seconds for pretty much all their health, me included (29k corruption sorc [5 fps - people that stealth stay invisible, all I see are sabers or blasters running around]). Thats when people start to complain and start dropping and then accusing each other for why they are losing.

 

the sob story about how your computer performance is sub-par is really quite touching, but has nothing to do with whether or not premades are unfair.

 

i highly doubt that every single person that has every been in a premade has a super computer....

 

and like i already said, PC hardware has always been, and will always be, a limiting factor in PC gaming. its also one of the few aspects of PC gaming that you have absolute direct control over. FPS too low? save up your money and buy a new GPU.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I play a healer on my main pvp character and nothing I can do to change the outcome other then heal as...

 

Not entirely sure the rest of the conversation you're having, but this specific line here I wanted to comment on:

 

While you feel you can't change the outcome during the match in such circumstance, there are things you can do -before- you end up in that circumstance.

 

PvP'ing and saving comms pre-max level is one.

 

The most important is: Pick 3 of your 8 team mates before the match even begins.