Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Anyakaschala]

Because it is somewhat hilarious to see how worked up people get over a game.

 

I just find the whole premade vs pug argument extremely hypocritical. Players complain about premades and how much face rolling they do against pugs. But, those same people are more than willing to tolerate a premade when it is on their side and having said premade is beneficial to them.

 

I've yet to see anyone that is against premades say that they drop when they see one, or what might be one, on their team.

 

So until players start to leave WZs when they have a premade on their side and they are winning any argument posted by same players against premades is, indeed, hypocritical.

 

it's been said before, but different people define "game" very different from other people. Thus, your point makes no sense.

 

and while your point about knowing you have a high powered premade on your side is a good thing, and you probalby don't want to leave, however, unless you've pvped a fair amount, you probably won't recognize a high powered premade.

 

Premades do come in all shapes and sizes and qualities, thus just because you seed a guild tag on 4 people doesn't mean you are going to roll the other team.

[Anyakaschala]

I've made it pretty clear in every post I make - premades in pug queues are carebears. I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to spin, I've never deviated from this line in any way. Also, premades are the minority. I've openly agreed that premades in pug queues aren't as big an issue as many make them out to be. But it doesn't change the fact, that if you're team stacking in pugs you're a candy ***.

 

And for your info, those 'tourists' are the majority, the solo pug players are the ones that fill the queues. When your geared premades spawn camp pugs and jerk each other's e-peens on Mumble, you're chasing off the queue fillers. I know you're too bad for ranked, the guys doing ranked know you're too bad for ranked, and the tourists know you're too bad for ranked.

 

I can pretty much agree with this, mostly. Where I disagree is on the points I made earlier. There has to be a place where groups that want to do ranked can get together and find out if their team works well together. There needs to be a place where guildies and casuals can group and do pvp.

 

But I completely agree that when high powered pvp pre-mades group, and then end up essentially spawn camping the other team, it's just bad for the general pvp population. Even if they roll on the other team, they need to show a little more class and sportsmanship. It would help the the population a lot.

 

One example, that I used earlier today on my lowbie gunslinger, we were ahead 2v1 in a deathmatch. we lost. But the issue was a simple one, both went all out when the juggernaut was in a defensive mode and saber reflect on. They were killing themselves. I pointed it out, but it was too late. We lost the match, but hopefully, those that were attacking learned something.

[sirullrich]

Do you even math bro?

 

Your statement is one of the most silliest in this thread. It is MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for there to be even close to the same amount of groups as there are solo players.

 

 

Works like this:

 

8 people on a team. Say 4 of them solo q and 1 premade group (also consisting of 4).

 

In order for your statement to make any sense... WZs would have to have at least 2x4 man premades every single time. And if you think that is the case, well, I have to question you even playing PVP in this game at all.

 

You might as well demand to see proof that the sun exists.

 

Dude you don't make sense. With your logic it is still 8 people that solo q and 8 people who are grouped up. That's still 8 people each. What are you even saying? It's the same amount of people. That is still 8 people for both who are q'd so how do you even tell yourself that your logic is correct?

[NuSeC]

Dude you don't make sense. With your logic it is still 8 people that solo q and 8 people who are grouped up. That's still 8 people each. What are you even saying? It's the same amount of people. That is still 8 people for both who are q'd so how do you even tell yourself that your logic is correct?

 

 

 

LOL

 

IT IS SIMPLE MATH... reread my post. I reread my post again to make sure I was explaining it correctly, I did.

 

In short...

 

It would have to be that way EVERY SINGLE TIME-WITHOUT EXCEPTION... it is not. Hence, there could not be more groups than solo players in WZs. As we all know, not all WZs come with a premade of 4 on each team.

 

Unless you are now claiming that in every single WZ, each team has a 4 man premade in it?!

Edited September 10, 2014 by NuSeC
typo

[NuSeC]

Let me just ask you. How do you get a bigger population of players when you are splitting the population?

 

Having fair teams is a good start.

[sirullrich]

LOL

 

IT IS SIMPLE MATH... reread my post. I reread my post again to make sure I was explaining it correctly, I did.

 

In short...

 

It would have to be that way EVERY SINGLE TIME-WITHOUT EXCEPTION... it is not. Hence, there could not be more groups than solo players in WZs. As we all know, not all WZs come with a premade of 4 on each team.

 

Unless you are not claiming that in every single WZ, each team has a 4 man premade in it?!

 

I am not claiming anything I said prove it with facts. Where are your facts. You are assuming everything. You don't know for fact who is grouped up or not. You are not asking in every warzone "are you grouped up or solo." You are just assuming. NO FACTS JUST ASSUMPTIONS.

 

I will also tell you in season 2 I was the highest rated guardian on server. I also play on one of the best four's teams on multiple servers. I also play a **** ton of solo regs, premade regs, solo rank and group ranked. I do all aspects of pvp in this game. Even if I play every aspect of this game I still don't know in regs who is grouped up or solo. I just play and try to win. I don't need an excuse when I lose.

[sirullrich]

Having fair teams is a good start.

 

Can you say for sure that the teams would be fair if it was separated? Just because two teams of 8 are solo or premades does not mean it's fair. Again assumption and no facts. No valid argument just vague statements.

[Raansu]

LOL

 

IT IS SIMPLE MATH... reread my post. I reread my post again to make sure I was explaining it correctly, I did.

 

In short...

 

It would have to be that way EVERY SINGLE TIME-WITHOUT EXCEPTION... it is not. Hence, there could not be more groups than solo players in WZs. As we all know, not all WZs come with a premade of 4 on each team.

 

Unless you are now claiming that in every single WZ, each team has a 4 man premade in it?!

 

Unless you know the exact data from the servers, your "simple math" doesn't exist.

[sirullrich]

Unless you know the exact data from the servers, your "simple math" doesn't exist.

 

EXACTLY I knew I could trust you raansu. LOL

[Lortemand]

Stupid discussion.

Premades ruin pvp gameplay over and out. Get operative healed all the way and think they're mighty skillor. Groups should queue for groups, individuals for individuals.

Lifetime is limited, no use for using 15mins+ for something that has been determined before start.

Better wait some 10 mins longer for a real game and not a stupid waste of time.

Fix it.

[Kazz_Devlin]

I agree. Either incorporate vent/ mumble/ teamspeak into the game for random groups so they can chat too or forgo pre-mades altogether.

With Resolve being a totally fubar system....(FUBAR as in NOT GOD@$% WORKING!) stuns lasting too long, while DMG output and dots are so high. Now factor in the other team being able to communicate with their team mates an exploiting the fubar resolve system stunning, rooting, snaring then gank fest al mode and you have a recipe for nobody wanting to do PVP because its GROSSLY UNFAIR. Matches where other team is all in double digits in medals, sporting a 6-0 win or have captured ALL nodes while your team is in single digits is an unbalanced match! Then factor in the same pre-made requeing over and over leads to a very long winless night how is that fun? I want a challenge NOT IMPOSSIBLE ODDS.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Kazz_Devlin

[SilverWF]

Remove possibility create groups! :D:D

[NuSeC]

EXACTLY I knew I could trust you raansu. LOL

 

SRSLY?

 

I could insert something vaguely vulgar here but... Ill let it go.

 

But seriously, are you guys RPing?

 

"Simple Math" is tongue-in-cheek. Hence "Simple Math". As your position is that there is at least a 4 man premade on each team in every single WZ, and that's just ridicules.

 

Know whats also funny?

 

This circular argument that's unfolding within this thread.

 

"There are not any groups Queuing so we have to que our group in regs and fight against pugs"

Or

"There is at least a four man premade on both teams every WZ, premades are not the minority"

 

LOL! So which is it? How is this issue not resolved by making people solo que unless they are queuing to face another group? Why is that such a horrible thing to bring to the table? Whats not fair about it?

 

I mean honestly, according to you guys, you should be in favor of splitting the que between solo que and grouped, you believe that premades outnumber/match solo que folks. Or do you and are you now claiming that no other groups are queuing so that premades have to stay in regs? You should stick to one position on the matter. Preferably, one that is not contradictory.

 

I mean, make it so if you are in a group, you have to fight other groups and you guys would be all set. You would have no wait at all, because of how many groups there are queuing and how all the teams are even and all...

 

Im out of this thread. I said what I had to say and it is also the first thread like this in the 3 years that I have actually signed off on. I don't think I am the only one turning attention to this issue either. Server pops and the lack of cross server que on top of ranked being a flop is really at the crux of this issue I refuse to blame the players. I personally thought a group of 5 vs 5 would have been more dynamic for this game and would not have been such a hit from the 8 vs 8 that I and many others enjoyed.

 

Two fingers in the air.

[Raansu]

My only point was that without hard data from the servers you cannot put a mathematical statistic to it because you have nothing to go by. You are guessing based on your own experience which could be swayed easily just by me inserting my own experience which is I mainly only see other premades when I premade and rarely see them when I queue solo.

 

With that said, the current system is perfectly fine. I queue solo a lot. I win some and I lose some, whatever. But if they did split the queue in an already small community, how would they handle casual players that run in groups of 2? My cousin isn't hardcore pvp and he hates arenas. Many times its just me and him queuing. Are we to be forced to queue against other premades? Or do we get thrown into the "solo" queue? If we get into the "solo" queue then people are just going to queue sync which could only be countered with cross server queuing.

 

So ya, at the end of the day, its just regs, stop taking it so seriously.

[Unperson]

So what if you are personal trainer. Do you tell your clients to give up if they can't lose the weight? I coach teams who have won national championships in sports. If we quit after a few losses then we would never be national champions. You say that is bad real life advice, but how can it be bad when I basically said don't ever quit. You sure you a trainer? How is that being a tough guy? Aren't you the one taking it personal? Did I hit a nerve or something? Is telling people not to quit a bad thing?

 

Who said anything about encouraging people to quit? Where did I say anything of the sort? It's bad form to put words in other people's mouths. The thing is you don't need to encourage people to quit because the poor setups in regs already do that for you. No, I don't tell clients to quit if they can't handle the effort, I make sure they can handle it and make a point of conveying that their efforts aren't in vain. If you know anything about actual team competitions you know that the equivalent of a 100-0 loss is a very rare occurrence IRL and always devastating to team morale. Here, they are fairly common. As you know, sports teams have coaches that focus on that that among other things -- what do people in SWTOR PVP have? Just internet tough guys telling them to suck it up and "L2P". Not exactly the most encouraging environment.

 

"Don't ever quit" is terrible advice because it's not actual advice - it's just an imperative that doesn't actually provide the recipient with the tools to overcome difficulties on top of being a veiled attack on her self esteem because "only losers quit". Since you're a such a straight up, no nonsense hardcore achiever, I'm sure that someone yelling "PUSH!!!" into your ear is enough to get you to bench 4 plates. And everyone else is a tourist and don't belong in your warzones anyway. Were that we could all bask in your glory.

 

Might not be your intention, but that really does come off as elitist.

 

 

For your second paragraph. Nothing but opinion. No facts. How do you know it's only pugs who get there **** kicked in? You assuming that only pugs lose. Again opinion. If the person is losing WZ after WZ how do you know it's because of PREMADES? How do you know it's not because the player is just bad and needs to learn? Nobody knows is what I'm saying. You can only control things within your grasp. You can't just sit here and assume that your opinion is greater than anyone else's.

 

The premade issue will never be fixed because bw/ea do not think it's important. So if you really wanted more people to play you would encourage people to group up instead of splitting the population. How does that logic even work. You want more people to play, but want to separate the players?

 

See, just shouting "opinion!" at other people's viewpoints does not work as well as you may think to undermine their validity, especially when you have failed to produce any factual evidence to back up your own claims, and also when you obviously haven't taken the time to actually understand the opinions you are attacking. Look up positive reinforcement and punishment. It's the reason prisons don't really work as a means to educate people or prevent recidivism. Nope, I cannot offer mathematical proof, because psychology isn't a hard science. There is literature however that suggests that a combination of positive and aversive stimuli offers the best results at modifying behavior, vs punishment alone. In this sense, more people will simply reduce their participation in PVP as much as possible because it's the easiest way to minimize the frustration associated with getting constantly owned in WZs, because appetitive stimuli are rare for newcomers to PVP.

 

You are right, I don't know that people are losing only because of premades. Then again, I never made that argument (straw man alert!). I do know, however, that ideal comp premades are stacking the odds in their favor when they queue because no matchmaking exists in regs. It makes the already unbalanced random composition issue worse. And that is what people are complaining about. Can an ideal comp premade lose against a pug? Yes. But that's irrelevant because the issue is the perceived advantages that people in a premade have against pugs, namely voice chat and group composition. You are a sports coach, how would you feel if your team wasn't allowed to prepare matches but this restriction didn't apply to your opponents?

 

Funny thing is, I'm not even against premades in regs, and I think the idea of a separate queue for groups is silly (and not a fix at all due to queue syncing). But getting teams of 7 rdd, or 3 healers in arenas gets real old real fast, and it's even worse when the other team has guard switching and cross healing. No amount of "L2P" on my mara is going to allow me to heal or guard. Want to queue with your pals? Great! I just want to stand on equal footing as much as possible, when mine aren't available. Is that so hard to understand?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Unperson

[Icykill_]

I'm sure things vary by server. I've played on a total of 4 and found these things are consistent:

 

- Premades are more likely to suck or be dead weight screwing off than be dominators.

- Pugs are rarely evenly matched skill-wise. Usually a few carry the day or on occasion the majority of a team are good.

- Facerolling premades show up on Tuesday to get their weekly out of the way, otherwise not very common.

 

LOL... Love it

 

Even better now there are all these premade PVE groups for decorations... Nothing like rolling 3 or 4 solo that are guarding a node that isn't being focused.... They need that many to guard 1v3/4... Shadow FTW on premade PVE pugs

 

 

.

[Volxen]

If they brought back 8 vs 8 ranked, that would probably help with the issue of certain premade groups steamrolling regular warzones at least somewhat. There are probably a lot of premade groups out there that simply don't like the 4 vs 4 TDM format, but would be willing to play 8 vs 8 ranked.

[DariusCalera]

But that's irrelevant because the issue is the perceived advantages that people in a premade have against pugs, namely voice chat and group composition. You are a sports coach, how would you feel if your team wasn't allowed to prepare matches but this restriction didn't apply to your opponents?

 

I bolded the important part.

 

You are right when you state that they are perceived advantages. Because unlike your comparison, the advantages are available to all.

 

What is available to 1 player, is available to all players. You can not hold one group accountable if another group decides to not make use of what is available to them.

[SammuelSK]

With that said, the current system is perfectly fine.

 

Except your are wrong. Twice even.

 

The system is not fine, you (singular) are not the deciding factor when it comes to how well it works. Your own point even backs up the claim that its broken. (See: Low PVP population)

 

Second. The seperation of queues and creating truly random teams increases the PVP population. Its been done before in other games, and shown a huge increase in player participation. You however will ignore that fact, yet again.

 

However, I doubt you have anything to worry about... Bioware has proven uninterested in fixing the PVP system.... so just keep telling people how its entirely their fault.

[Darkshadz]

Second. The seperation of queues and creating truly random teams increases the PVP population. Its been done before in other games, and shown a huge increase in player participation. You however will ignore that fact, yet again.

 

Can you prove that? Name of the game + link proving that the population increased because they separate solo queuers and premades.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Darkshadz

[SammuelSK]

Can you prove that?

 

Yup. Age of Conan started with a PVP system much like SWTOR's current one. End result was that premades ended up farming the queue into extinction. Was actually pretty hilarious.. they would spam global chat trying to convince players to queue up.

 

Anyway, eventually the dev's changed the system to a pure random team setup, grouping up just placed you in the same match but not on the same team. And queue times went from hours long, to every couple minutes.

 

This is why I find this whole debate so adorable, you guys argue about the population being 'too small', but fail to understand the reason for WHY the vast majority of players do not want to queue up.

[Raansu]

Except your are wrong. Twice even.

 

The system is not fine, you (singular) are not the deciding factor when it comes to how well it works. Your own point even backs up the claim that its broken. (See: Low PVP population)

 

Second. The seperation of queues and creating truly random teams increases the PVP population. Its been done before in other games, and shown a huge increase in player participation. You however will ignore that fact, yet again.

 

However, I doubt you have anything to worry about... Bioware has proven uninterested in fixing the PVP system.... so just keep telling people how its entirely their fault.

 

It was done in rift and was immediately reverted because the queues died.

[Darkshadz]

Yup. Age of Conan started with a PVP system much like SWTOR's current one. End result was that premades ended up farming the queue into extinction. Was actually pretty hilarious.. they would spam global chat trying to convince players to queue up.

 

Anyway, eventually the dev's changed the system to a pure random team setup, grouping up just placed you in the same match but not on the same team. And queue times went from hours long, to every couple minutes.

 

This is why I find this whole debate so adorable, you guys argue about the population being 'too small', but fail to understand the reason for WHY the vast majority of players do not want to queue up.

 

Age of conan only has 2 active servers and 1 almost dead server (according to what's written on their forums). They can afford to do separate queues. SWTOR doesn't have that luxury unless they add x-server queues. Since you said "games" in plural, what are the other games that separate premades and solo queuers?

[Raansu]

lol AoC. Their pvp is even more dead than swtor. I tried that game out a few months ago and it was like over an hour per queue.

[SammuelSK]

Age of conan only has 2 active servers and 1 almost dead server (according to what's written on their forums). They can afford to do separate queues. SWTOR doesn't have that luxury unless they add x-server queues. Since you said "games" in plural, what are the other games that separate premades and solo queuers?

 

I'm sorry.. your argument is what exactly? That SWTOR has less players then Age of Conan? Because.. I can tell you that is definately NOT the case. So... you might want to rephrase your point... because that made no sense to me.