Merc is TERRIBLE

[klham]

That's irony right?

[Technohic]

the changes that need to be made would have zero affect on pve performance.

 

making unload uninterruptable, zero affect. adding in a skill that makes merc uninterruptable for x amount of time, zero affect. making rocket punch root + knockback, zero affect. etc etc

 

merc dps output is absolutely fine. the problem is we lack the mobility + utility to compete with melee opponents

 

I can agree with that. I am just saying they probably are not even looking at the class as having an issue because of the PvE metrics to even consider boosts that would help in PvP yet not disrupt where they feel they are on target for PvE.

[Asukaa]

That was the problem with deception assassins for months.

 

Most people who played them never figured out how to play them, and even Bioware went public with that information.

 

Edit: I'm talking about Assault/Pyro.

 

We know how to play them. It's just that, played "correctly" (I use that term loosely) you end up gimping your dps. When running around I have 2 abilities that I cannot use. Those 2 abilities are what the Pyro/Assault spec are built on. Charged Bolts and Full Auto. Sure if I'm hiding and being left alone on a perch I can unleash on everyone, but that is just so rare in 50 pvp (unless you're a healer on POT5, rep pugs don't focus healers so you're good even out in the open). This really wasn't an issue prior to 1.4. I could kite melee forever. Since the 1.4 nerf to our snare tho, it's harder to kite and one little slip up can cost you the fight. BW needs to undo the snare nerf for Commandos and give us something that will make casting CB or channeling FA worth it.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Asukaa

[OldRepublicRevan]

Merc is TERRIBLE in PvP... In any 1v1 fight with anything other than a merc you will lose. Every single decent skill the merc uses has a cast time, and can also be interupted. On top of that, they decreased the range of our stun by 2/3rds? Now the Merc class is even more horrible. You give us an interupt but but nerf our stun? Ridiculous. IT'S A RANGED CLASS! Give us our stun back... If you guys don't find a way to make the merc more competitive in PvP I am going to uninstall because merc is my main. So lets recap. Stun is worthless now, the interupt has a low range and can only be used to interupt certain things, but everything on merc can be interupted... Without a heat signature damage is crap and in PvP there isn't enough time to always get a heat signature on people. I could go on and on, please fix this class....

 

I know what you mean. My Merc has full wh gear and both ewh guns and no matter how hard I try I cannot beat the over powered melee in this game. The *********** idiots at Bioware have no idea what balance is and obviously have no intention of ever fixing the Merc in pvp. We had our time on top when Tracer Missile was making all the melee cry but now its just a constant struggle to even do unranked since Mercs are worthless in ranked warzones.

[OldRepublicRevan]

Edit: I'm talking about Assault/Pyro.

 

We know how to play them. It's just that, played "correctly" (I use that term loosely) you end up gimping your dps. When running around I have 2 abilities that I cannot use. Those 2 abilities are what the Pyro/Assault spec are built on. Charged Bolts and Full Auto. Sure if I'm hiding and being left alone on a perch I can unleash on everyone, but that is just so rare in 50 pvp (unless you're a healer on POT5, rep pugs don't focus healers so you're good even out in the open). This really wasn't an issue prior to 1.4. I could kite melee forever. Since the 1.4 nerf to our snare tho, it's harder to kite and one little slip up can cost you the fight. BW needs to undo the snare nerf for Commandos and give us something that will make casting CB or channeling FA worth it.

 

I wish they would but if they gave us Merc Pyros something to actually give melee a fight every single melee player would threaten to quit and unsubscribe b/c they can no longer roll all over most of the classes.

[OldRepublicRevan]

Merc was fine before people learned how to pvp in this game, we all remember the guy who topped dmg done and had nothing but tracer missile bound to all hotkeys. That would never happen today, not even with the damage the way it was before, he would simply get demolished and end up last on all the scoreboards.

 

When i first started playing swtor i wanted to be what everyone would NOT be, a guy who couldnt use the force but managed to kill stuff anyway due to superiour tactical and technical solutions. That didnt pan out the way i had hoped.

 

I was considered to be one of the top mercs on my server but in the end, the top merc just isnt worth a spot in a ranked team since even a ábove average guy on another class simply outshines the merc on pretty much everything.

 

Mercs as they are work great for PvE but they are a hopeless deadweight in pvp. Great skill isnt even enough to make the merc ok. It simply lacks the skills necessary to complete the job.

 

I wont start suggesting what the class needs since there are countless threads with very good ideas.

The class feedback thread that we spent so much time on got hopelessly shat on, pardon my french.

 

I have since leveled assassin/sage/PT/jug to rank 50 and they all outshine the merc so very much that ive given up hope for my mandalorian. WIch is a damn shame since i utterly love the commando and mercs lore/storyline and looks. Shame im not into PvE or i might have stayed with my favourite character.

TL;DR version : You are correct, mercs are poorly developed and i see no future for the class in pvp, at all.

 

This guy is an idiot and obviously hasn't rolled a merc in 50 pvp.

[Nightkin]

This guy is an idiot and obviously hasn't rolled a merc in 50 pvp.

 

What exactly is it in my post that makes me such a idiot?

(By the way, the second link in my sig is my merc...)

Edited October 25, 2012 by Nightkin

[OldRepublicRevan]

What exactly is it in my post that makes me such a idiot?

(By the way, the second link in my sig is my merc...)

 

'Merc was fine before people learned how to pvp in this game'

 

Merc was fine until they started giving melee moves that can kill us in two or three big hits. Merc was fine until they gave melee 97 different ways to ensnare us and slow are movement and giving us virtually no way to kite anymore. Merc was fine until they reduced the range of electro dart and let the overpowered melee get in even closer before we have a chance to really push any dps at all.

 

Your opening line already voided anything else you said. Its got nothing at all to do with people learning how to play. Its just Bioware having no idea what balance is.......I think if Bioware made its employees play pvp they would have a much better idea of whats going on in 50 pvp.

[Nightkin]

'Merc was fine before people learned how to pvp in this game'

 

Merc was fine until they started giving melee moves that can kill us in two or three big hits. Merc was fine until they gave melee 97 different ways to ensnare us and slow are movement and giving us virtually no way to kite anymore. Merc was fine until they reduced the range of electro dart and let the overpowered melee get in even closer before we have a chance to really push any dps at all.

 

Your opening line already voided anything else you said. Its got nothing at all to do with people learning how to play. Its just Bioware having no idea what balance is.......I think if Bioware made its employees play pvp they would have a much better idea of whats going on in 50 pvp.

 

You seem to have completely forgotten the era of mercs and commandos just spamming tracers all day long and topping everything. People generally had no clue how to play back then so that simple playstyle shined and worked due to that. This video might remind you how pvp was back then,

 

On a closing note, theres really no reason to attack me and call me a idiot cause what i said really wasnt untrue at all.

The game has changed since then, exactly as you say; melee classes dish out insane damage these days and we have little to no defence against that, i agree on everything you said regarding that and i have brought up those exact points in other threads aswell.

Im a merc just like you, no need for us to bark at eachother when we both want the same thing. A functional pvp class.

[OldRepublicRevan]

You seem to have completely forgotten the era of mercs and commandos just spamming tracers all day long and topping everything. People generally had no clue how to play back then so that simple playstyle shined and worked due to that. This video might remind you how pvp was back then,

 

On a closing note, theres really no reason to attack me and call me a idiot cause what i said really wasnt untrue at all.

The game has changed since then, exactly as you say; melee classes dish out insane damage these days and we have little to no defence against that, i agree on everything you said regarding that and i have brought up those exact points in other threads aswell.

Im a merc just like you, no need for us to bark at eachother when we both want the same thing. A functional pvp class.

 

I hadn't forgot but then again I've always run pyro for pvp and saved arsenal for pve. I hate being stationary in pvp. Standing still now days ends up one of two ways. Ganked by a scoundrel/operative or utterly destroyed by smash smash.

[Dovahbrah]

This guy is an idiot and obviously hasn't rolled a merc in 50 pvp.

 

You're clearly the idiot. Nothing he said was wrong.

[Nightkin]

I hadn't forgot but then again I've always run pyro for pvp and saved arsenal for pve. I hate being stationary in pvp. Standing still now days ends up one of two ways. Ganked by a scoundrel/operative or utterly destroyed by smash smash.

Again i fully agree with you, being stationary is a deathmark with our current defences. On the other hand just staying mobile is not enough defence to make us viable for rateds either, but pyro is the best pvp spec without a doubt. Arsenal works wonders, if you are invisible...wich we arent

[OldRepublicRevan]

You're clearly the idiot. Nothing he said was wrong.

 

Says the guy with 2 fotm classes. Be quiet and go back to the end of the line.

[Nightkin]

You're clearly the idiot. Nothing he said was wrong.

 

The guy is just frustrated with our class and took it out on someone and i can really understand that, im not offended so its no big deal. Thanks though

 

The underlaying issue still remains though, our class is not functional as it is and i just cant figure out WHY we are viewed as acceptable by the balance team when noone in their right mind would bring a merc as anything to a rated game.

[Nightkin]

Says the guy with 2 fotm classes. Be quiet and go back to the end of the line.

 

Can we please stop the anger here? I have 6 rank 50s by now, if anything that gives me more right to speak out about balance then if i would just have 1 char and a more limited knowledge about the classes.

[Anishor]

Balancing Merc isn't easy.

 

I think everyone can agree that leaving a Merc alone to free-cast its dps will destroy an enemy force. The problem is no one ever leaves a merc alone because as soon as you apply pressure to them their dps shrivels up and they fold like a deck of cards. If you make them too resistant to pressure they would easily become the most over-played DPS class again. The problem IMO is the focus around Tracer/Grav round. It just doesn't feel like the class was meant to look that way. Unload to me, looks like what each of the classes should be doing. They should be putting a lot of bolts down range. The problem is of course unload is channeled. So like Master Strike/Ravage make which was pitiful until they made it uninterruptible. Secondly I would add a mechanic like SWG's suppressing fire to unload. That unload would snare the target fired at with increasingly higher strength the closer the target is to the user.

[OldRepublicRevan]

Balancing Merc isn't easy.

 

I think everyone can agree that leaving a Merc alone to free-cast its dps will destroy an enemy force. The problem is no one ever leaves a merc alone because as soon as you apply pressure to them their dps shrivels up and they fold like a deck of cards. If you make them too resistant to pressure they would easily become the most over-played DPS class again. The problem IMO is the focus around Tracer/Grav round. It just doesn't feel like the class was meant to look that way. Unload to me, looks like what each of the classes should be doing. They should be putting a lot of bolts down range. The problem is of course unload is channeled. So like Master Strike/Ravage make which was pitiful until they made it uninterruptible. Secondly I would add a mechanic like SWG's suppressing fire to unload. That unload would snare the target fired at with increasingly higher strength the closer the target is to the user.

 

I could free cast on a mara/sentinel all day. All they gotta do is get to 5% health and then I gotta wait a week before that shield goes down to resume dmg. That or they go invisible and run away thus making it impossible to kill them. You sound like a mara just wanting to diplomatically put down the idea of merc getting a buff. Ofc if I was you and rolling one of the best dps classes in the game I'd constantly put down any thread that was about giving another rival dps class a buff.

 

Mercs need a buff in pvp. End of story.

[Nightkin]

Balancing Merc isn't easy.

 

I think everyone can agree that leaving a Merc alone to free-cast its dps will destroy an enemy force. The problem is no one ever leaves a merc alone because as soon as you apply pressure to them their dps shrivels up and they fold like a deck of cards. If you make them too resistant to pressure they would easily become the most over-played DPS class again. The problem IMO is the focus around Tracer/Grav round. It just doesn't feel like the class was meant to look that way. Unload to me, looks like what each of the classes should be doing. They should be putting a lot of bolts down range. The problem is of course unload is channeled. So like Master Strike/Ravage make which was pitiful until they made it uninterruptible. Secondly I would add a mechanic like SWG's suppressing fire to unload. That unload would snare the target fired at with increasingly higher strength the closer the target is to the user.

I think what you say is quite spot on, buff a class too much and it just becomes the next FOTM and that shouldnt be the goal here. What we need is a defensive cooldown worth using and mobility (that might be the same thing depending on the ability) and to some degree; the ability to fire on the move.

[Phasersablaze]

'Merc was fine before people learned how to pvp in this game'

 

Merc was fine until they started giving melee moves that can kill us in two or three big hits. Merc was fine until they gave melee 97 different ways to ensnare us and slow are movement and giving us virtually no way to kite anymore. Merc was fine until they reduced the range of electro dart and let the overpowered melee get in even closer before we have a chance to really push any dps at all.

 

Your opening line already voided anything else you said. Its got nothing at all to do with people learning how to play. Its just Bioware having no idea what balance is.......I think if Bioware made its employees play pvp they would have a much better idea of whats going on in 50 pvp.

 

Granted, I agree that the buffs to Mele classes have not helped Mercenaries at all, but I also think that Nightkin is dead on with his statements. I played a LOT of pvp in the beginning. I was valor 80 before War Hero armor came out. I think that Nightkin is referring to the fact that NO ONE used to interrupt Tracer Missile. They would QQ about it all day, but they would never interrupt it.

 

And as to Spamming Tracer missile: First of all you gotta remmeber that barrage used to have only a 30% chance to proc. It was not unusual to cast 6 in a row before they changed it to a 45% proc rate. Also remember that we need 3 stacks of tracer debuffs on each target, and with the wildy moving PVP scene and switching targets it could look like we were just tracer spamming.

 

By the way nightkin, that vid you posted of the tracer spammer is pathetic. If he was actually using the right cylinder he might have gotten a crit bigger than 3k. I know that before 1.2 I was getting over 600k damage in Voidstars. He didn't even break 300k.

 

And to the Pyro Mercs: You say you would get eaten up by mele if you sacrificed your mobility. I say learn to keep 30m away from the fray and use LOS. I went Pyro for 2 months, but ended up going back to Arsenal. PT Pyros are supposed to be in the fray, and they also melt things twice as fast. Mercenaries have to learn to stay 30m away from the fight and have a pillar close by. I'd rather have a stronger KB and greeater DPS than slightly more mobility and spells that hit like a mosquito bite. Esplosive Dart, Heatseeker Missile, Rail Shot, Rapid Shots...all instant, so I can be mobile too in a pinch. Jet Boost -> Unload is a pretty decent combo if they wasted their leap as well.

 

Phaser (50 Arsenal Merc)

The Shadowlands

[Technohic]

Maybe if tracer wasn't channeled but hit weaker and then heat seeker and gauss got larger damage boost from the stacks to make up for the lower tracer damage, keeping in mind that you are getting more damage per second though, due to also having increased rate of fire on TM. You would be very mobile then. I don't know if that would go too far as you could kite with most of the damaging abilities..

[Nightkin]

 

By the way nightkin, that vid you posted of the tracer spammer is pathetic. If he was actually using the right cylinder he might have gotten a crit bigger than 3k. I know that before 1.2 I was getting over 600k damage in Voidstars. He didn't even break 300k.

 

Yeah i know he does so much wrong its painful to watch but the video is for silly amusement and little else so i´ll forgive him that.

[cashogy]

Maybe if tracer wasn't channeled but hit weaker and then heat seeker and gauss got larger damage boost from the stacks to make up for the lower tracer damage, keeping in mind that you are getting more damage per second though, due to also having increased rate of fire on TM. You would be very mobile then. I don't know if that would go too far as you could kite with most of the damaging abilities..

 

making tracer missile instant cast would not increase the rate of fire. the cast is 1.5s, same as the GCD

 

merc would still not be able to kite well

[Nightkin]

Maybe if tracer wasn't channeled but hit weaker and then heat seeker and gauss got larger damage boost from the stacks to make up for the lower tracer damage, keeping in mind that you are getting more damage per second though, due to also having increased rate of fire on TM. You would be very mobile then. I don't know if that would go too far as you could kite with most of the damaging abilities..

 

There was an endless stream of good suggestions in the class feedback thread and they were all ignored, 50+ pages down the drain. UNLESS the rank 55 abilitys will be what we have been praying for....

Edited October 25, 2012 by Nightkin

[Phasersablaze]

Balancing Merc isn't easy.

 

I think everyone can agree that leaving a Merc alone to free-cast its dps will destroy an enemy force. The problem is no one ever leaves a merc alone because as soon as you apply pressure to them their dps shrivels up and they fold like a deck of cards. If you make them too resistant to pressure they would easily become the most over-played DPS class again. The problem IMO is the focus around Tracer/Grav round. It just doesn't feel like the class was meant to look that way. Unload to me, looks like what each of the classes should be doing. They should be putting a lot of bolts down range. The problem is of course unload is channeled. So like Master Strike/Ravage make which was pitiful until they made it uninterruptible. Secondly I would add a mechanic like SWG's suppressing fire to unload. That unload would snare the target fired at with increasingly higher strength the closer the target is to the user.

 

I disagree with the first part. I have had BIS gear for months and I can tell you that now, even when I'm 100% left alone I am not OP. Id say Max dps for a 14 minute voidstar is about 700k depending on how noobish the enemy is about grouping together while you DFA. That really doesn't hold a candle to the potential of a Rage/Smashfest Marauder. I also have noticed that its a lot harder to kill a good healer now.

 

No...I don't think we would be OP even if everyone left us alone. I don't even think we would be balanced yet. It would take un-nerfing tracer millise and giving us back the 8k HSM in addition to giving us some type of defense against mele to bring us back in line. Just thinking of what my recruit/Battlemaster geared Deception assasin can do in 3 global cooldowns is insane compared to Merc burst DPS. And our susstained is very poor compared to our PT brothers, and Marauders, Snipers, and good Sins/Sorcs for that matter.

 

The only thing I agree with in your post is that we fall over like a deck of cards when Mele attack us, yet we have nothing to counter this or the ability to shut down any other AC in a simmilar fashon. Basically, Mercs are FUBAR unless you are overgeared and queing against random noob PUGs.

[Technohic]

making tracer missile instant cast would not increase the rate of fire. the cast is 1.5s, same as the GCD

 

merc would still not be able to kite well

 

Ah, true about the GCD and the cast time making the rate not increase by not having the channel; but it would allow you to run while firing by having it instant, non-cast.