Jug Tanks Not as good as other Tanks

[Darkabysslord]

There is many thing but Ill start With Endurance Buffs In skill Tree I Jug fully geared with all the best end game Gear has 26-27k Hp well assassion and powertech with the Endurance skill Hav 30-32k Hp the only way 2 hit tho numbers 4 a jug is 2 stack endurance get to about 29k but greatly lowering stats making them weak.

 

Next Tanking Skills

 

Jugs hav a Jump and a Pushback

Assassions hav Force Speed. Pull, Pushback, Range skills. Stealth, and a Out on combat CC

Powertech hav Jump, Pull, Range Skills, and Higher Damage

 

Last Defence Change unluck other Tanks only Help With Range Damage not Melee

Edited September 23, 2012 by Darkabysslord

[Darkabysslord]

Not saying that Jugs R weaker Im saying we should hav the same Hp as the other tanks there R many Fights were the tank can out of range of a healer or there no time 2 heal and And most in judging how good a tank is Looks at Hp ( I kno this just dumb but its True) But the other thing I said besides Hp is what sucks the most.

 

The Skills is where I feel like im less useful like pull and maybe a skill that makes the jug more useful Ive bin many ops/fp were ppl has said I wish we had a powertech or assassion for there PULL or assassion for the out of Combat CC, Ivr never heard I wish we had a Jug for there _______ skill.

Well jugs R missing something 2 make them more useful there nothing I do better then other tanks

 

(Skill other Tanks Hav Jugs Dont)

Assassions hav Force Speed. Pull, Range skills. Stealth, and a Out on combat CC, Endurance boost in Skill tree

Powertech hav Pull, Range Skills, and Higher Damage, Endurance boost in Skill tree

 

Both hav a higher list of useful skill then a Jug. Having Pull or something would even it out a bit jugs R less useful then others .

[Kaisies]

what is this i dont even.

 

 

jugg tanks are (basically) fine. the damage nerf hit us a little meh. and its basically agreed upon that we have the lowest damage, however we have the best single tanking in the game really.

 

also, we have the same HP as an assassin, pt's get a skill for +%endo, its all just how we are mod'ed

Edited September 22, 2012 by Kaisies

[af_raptura]

I do not know how much of this is true, since I have not yet played a Juggernaught, but Powertech's do not get a knockback (pushback as you call it).

 

That said, the only drawbacks I've ever heard from Juggernaughts were that there is not much in the way of AoE and only saber throw as a ranged technique.

 

Look at it this way, if you PvP, groups generally prefer you over a Shield Tech Powertech anyday.

[KVork]

I think OP should try and play other tanks.

 

Juggernat has charge, push, friend aggro/damage reducing jump, aoe snare, additional stun (makes for total 6 interrupts/stuns/mezz on non-boss) - you got at least 6 attacks from 10m range or more not counting taunt. Also defensive CDs are better than that of vanguard/powertech.

 

And Powertech/Vanguard tank does not have a pushback, nor any snare to be honest.

 

Actually I roll vanguard tank and jugger tank, got few assasin tanks in guild. As far as I see it Juggernaut is as good as others and on some bosses better. Yes you got less health because of no +Endurance talent. But you got way better mitigation than vanguard/powertech. I actually find it easier to tank on Jugger than on vanguard, i got more control over incoming damage and heavy hitting mobs.

 

If you play mostly solo or pvp... than yes Juggernaut tank preatty much sucks beacuse of laughable damage he deals.

[orillah]

Jugs tanks are far more better then other tanks from pvp aspect. If you think other tanks is better then try others and maybe you realise sin/tech playstyle is better for you.

[Teioh_White]

I tank all the time my Jugg and PT, and I'd have to say I honestly prefer my PT. Though I actually get better damage on my Jugg on a single target than my PT since the large nerf to Rocket Punch, which was the money move for PT. (I tank with 28 points into Veng).

 

As for taking less damage, i'm not sure, Jugg has the better CD for white damage (Saberward is crazy good there), while PT has the better yellow damage CD (Power shield adds directly to DR, rather than reducing what gets through DR like invincible, actually making it better.) All defensive stats get better the more focused in one you are, as going from 69-70% absorb is a larger decrease in damage taken than 20-21%. My Jugg sits at 28/50/50 with 52ish DR, while PT is at 10/62/70 with 53ish DR. I'll need to actually parse a few EC HM to see whose getting beat for less.

 

For stuff like trash pulls and FP's though, no contest I prefer PT, just so much easier to get all the crap on you. And yes, if folks CC right and DPS attack the weaker things first with moves that stun, it should be easy for no one but tank to take damage. I rarely have people doing that without explanation each time, so generally I have to just try and grab 6 things onto me. PT does it easy, Jugg not so much.

 

As for HP total, when playing as my OP healer, I cringe when I see these massive hp tanks. That's just a lot of defensive stats they're giving up, and you really notice when they're tanking 5 trash mobs or something that they're just a big sponge. My PT, max geared, only has 24.2k HP, and my Jugg only has 23.5k.

[vandana_]

Our "physics" skills are just fine. No need to add anything. Our problems lie with badly designed talent trees.

 

Namely, useless AOE on Crushing Blow as a trade-off for lower damage, lower than other other tanks damage in general and for hybrid Enraged Defense should be re-designed for different forms: Soresu - doesn't drop threat, Shien/Shi-Cho - doesn't cost rage.

Edited September 26, 2012 by vandana_

[epicfear]

Dude, OP, learn grammer and spelling.

 

Only then will I laugh at you for your failed assumptions, as opposed to your crappy english.

[UncleOst]

A jug tank will stay alive long enough to hold a node BUT...

You will NEVER see a jug tank guarding a node solo, get attacked by 2 players, kill the 2 attackers, and then cancel the "inc support" request.

Geared sintanks eat 2vs1's fer breakfast.

 

...take yer pick...

[cool-dude]

A jug tank will stay alive long enough to hold a node BUT...

You will NEVER see a jug tank guarding a node solo, get attacked by 2 players, kill the 2 attackers, and then cancel the "inc support" request.

Geared sintanks eat 2vs1's fer breakfast.

 

...take yer pick...

 

I disagree...respecttfully.

Tank-sins are probably the overall best pve tank in the game, highest defense, and they can boost their shields. The mechanics in pvp are a little different, because most of the damage done is force and tech dmg, and defense and shield does not protect you against those types of attacks, so all you have protecting you is mostly your mitigation. In pvp, mitigation is your lord a savior.

[Teioh_White]

Which is way that 5 seconds of just saying 'No' to all forms of CC+Hardest hitting attacks+DoT wiping is so stupidly good. Combined that with Stealth, which ensures the Sin tank always gets to open, and the ability to hop back into stealth, then pop out right before cap, just adds to the unfairness.

 

A Jugg in general has to play by the rule, with Unstoppable being the only somewhat 'unfair' thing a Jugg can do. Sin tanks have a lot of stupidly powerful thing in pvp.

[TheronFett]

Jugg tanks are fine. The learning curve is just higher.

 

Personally, I wasn't happy with my 50 Jugg tank and deleted it. Their damage output is really, really bad...which can make holding aggro difficult (especially AoE) at times. I liked the control of the Immortal tree in PvP, it was a lot of fun to play. But again, even in DPS gear, their damage is terrible. I've seen some great Jugg tanks. We have a few in my guild who do really well with the class, but it just wasn't for me.

Edited September 30, 2012 by TheronFett

[Caprindo]

Love my Jug day in and day out.

That aside, some play styles/players/ combos/rotations/ specs are better than others. My personal PVE spec will be linked. However a powertech may be better playing with a sniper, or any other ranged dps/healing, due to the aoe. This can and should be negated by the raid/group following orders and focusing on the correct targets. (Like blaming the healer, but on the more expensive player) My jug has beaten a powertech 3-2 levels above him in single combat though.I was level 24-ish at the time, and had no stims or buffs. (Aside from just beening on the racial for warriors.)

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMGzudrdszZfMM.2

[Banivisa]

We just cleared 8 HM Asation 2 Jugg tank's enough said.

 

and as to guarding a node in PvP solo while 2 players attack it..it's no problem as a Jugg IF they decide to attack you they won't take the node, if they decide to cc you they might, if they're good they will. The advantage of the Tanksin is stealth and them not finding you to cc you and cap the node.

[Elyx]

Tank with assassin (well, shadow really, but still the same) and Jugg. my PT isn't high enough to count (I do tank, but 30's tanking isn't quite the same). There are many times I honestly wish I was on my jugg when im playing my shadow. they do have excellent AoE skills, but my jug feels far more mobile (didn't think this until I played other tanks)and simply fun to play. I worry about AoE threat on my jugg, i never on my assassin...but in all honesty, I've never seen someone go down because I couldn't' hold a few trash mobs.

 

and my jugg is more involved, whereas my assassin is pretty much press Aoe Buttons = win. oh yeah, don't forget your shield skill. On that note, I feel like i have much more control over my mitigations on my jugg. my CD's are better, and under my control. whereas with my assassin, i have to keep my floating rocks going....and then i just hope that spike damage doesn't hit me too hard.

 

My only gripe with my jugg is the tanking tree feels very half-hearted. My assassin's feels much more rounded in overall skills, but he feels like hes fluffing his way through tanking. my jugg feels much more mobile and I feel like I'm pounding things into the dirt when i tank on my jugg. I just wish the numbers floating above the mobs reflected that feeling. My assassin feels like a noodle, but does solid damage. my jugg (tank) feels like a mack truck, but is really hitting like a wet noodle. I cry now when i use crushing blow....its really more of a whiffling blow with a crushing animation.

 

I still love my jugg. just want a bit more out of the tree is all. my DPS tree is doing fine. immortal needs some love.

[arkitip]

Everyone has forgotten to mention a huge plus for Jugg Tanks: Armor Debuff. It's a big deal.

[shaundibble]

Im a jug tank, im well geared and use my cooldowns effeciently and have cleared all game content on all levels.

Our guild healers find it easier to heal me than our assassin or PT tanks.

 

Also the near instant 20% reduction to boss armor is a massive dps boost, EC HM burn phases are much harder with out a jug tank. (Charge/smash/sunder)

 

Also anyone that's says jugs dont create enough threat are not playing the class correctly as i rarely lose aggro and our dps are merc/mara/pyro(PT) and they can do about 1800-2000k sustained.

 

Im not the best player and if i see someone doing something i cant or new to me I ask for help/advice.

 

my stats are approx from memory 24k HP 28% def (+3% retaliation) 50%absorb 50%shield and i use matrix cube with the Campaign relic with absorb proc (shield amplification one i think). and this rocks my absorb up to 60% and this is nearly up 25% of the time due to my shield rating.

 

Jugs are in a good place to be honest . the threat inst as good as could be , Assassin Threat is better. Also the changes in 1.3 actually made little difference to a good jug as we took a huge dps drop to add that extra 25% threat buff we took.

 

Anúbis

Vision

Edited October 18, 2012 by shaundibble

[XXcaesar]

There is many thing but Ill start With Endurance Buffs In skill Tree I Jug fully geared with all the best end game Gear has 26-27k Hp well assassion and powertech with the Endurance skill Hav 30-32k Hp the only way 2 hit tho numbers 4 a jug is 2 stack endurance get to about 29k but greatly lowering stats making them weak.

 

Next Tanking Skills

 

Jugs hav a Jump and a Pushback

Assassions hav Force Speed. Pull, Pushback, Range skills. Stealth, and a Out on combat CC

Powertech hav Jump, Pull, Range Skills, and Higher Damage

 

Last Defence Change unluck other Tanks only Help With Range Damage not Melee

 

This thread has strayed a bit. No one has mention the first error in this complaint. Your comparing hp from a heavy armored tank to a light armored tank.

I'm a jug tank and I also have a sorc healer as well, when I heal a assassin I'm shocked at how fast their hp drops. I rarely put out any dps when running with most assassin tanks. I by no means am dissing assassins, the good ones make a fp go much faster then I can with my jug.

I'm new to MMO's and I'm really shocked at the amount of socialism that spewed from it's community. HE'S GOT THIS...HE'S GOT THAT..AND I DON'T..IT'S NOT FAIR.. There is a reason there are different classes. If you want what one class has play that class! Nobody is forcing you to play any class!

[Elyx]

This thread has strayed a bit. No one has mention the first error in this complaint. Your comparing hp from a heavy armored tank to a light armored tank.

I'm a jug tank and I also have a sorc healer as well, when I heal a assassin I'm shocked at how fast their hp drops. I rarely put out any dps when running with most assassin tanks. I by no means am dissing assassins, the good ones make a fp go much faster then I can with my jug.

I'm new to MMO's and I'm really shocked at the amount of socialism that spewed from it's community. HE'S GOT THIS...HE'S GOT THAT..AND I DON'T..IT'S NOT FAIR.. There is a reason there are different classes. If you want what one class has play that class! Nobody is forcing you to play any class!

 

excellent point. On my shadow i simply feel squishier. i worry more about incoming damage then i ever do on my jugg. it's almost a second thought on my jugg. I've learned to appreciate the mitigation differences.

 

And to Ark and shaun: thanks for bringing sunder up: it's probably one of the most under-appreciated party buffs ever. Everyone says that juggs don't have party buffs....but 20% armor reduction is amazing. I think most people miss it because it's ALWAYS THERE. That, and it can come from other sources as well (PT and other juggs as an example), so it's not as noticeable as the mauraders burst damage ability.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Elyx

[verfallen]

Jug sure handle heavy blows better than sin, but you are wrong about the cooldowns.

 

Jug has :

invincible -40% damage reduction of the damage you take AFTER armor gets applied. So mostly 20%. On a 3 minute cooldowns

Saber ward - 100% ranged defense for a few sec, 50% for remaining of the 12 seconds. 25% tech/force resist on a 3 minute cooldown.

 

Endure pain - temporary health buff to reduce incoming damage % on your real total health. 1:30 minute cooldown.

 

Sin has :

 

-deflection slight less powerful saber ward, but on a 2 minute cooldown. Additioned with your defense, it makes the saber turning bonus rather pointless, since both get pretty much full immunity to ranged/melee. Lacking the teh resistance but...

 

-force shroud. Total immunity to force/tech for 5 seconds on a 40 sec about efficient cooldown, with a total cleansing of possible dots and some debuffs.

 

-overload saber. Boosted healing + 10% insta heal. 2 minute again.

 

 

 

So respectfully, you are wrong about the cooldowns. Assassin mostly have the same, on a similar cooldown, and shroud is a much bigger cd on some tech heavy bosses.

[Siorac]

Saber Ward doesn't grant any Force/Tech resistance, merely 25% damage reduction from Force/Tech attacks.

[SuperDaioz]

Dude, OP, learn grammer and spelling.

 

Grammar*

 

Sorry I couldn't resist

Edited October 29, 2012 by SuperDaioz

[verfallen]

Saber Ward doesn't grant any Force/Tech resistance, merely 25% damage reduction from Force/Tech attacks.

 

My bad then. So thats not even as great as I tought.

 

It DOES seems rather strange tbh, that deflection/shroud are much more powerful a combo that can be popped so often. Imo, shortening that CD to 2 minutes would very much help the class. Ideally through saber turning, mara is more than fine as it is.

[Cyonnelia]

I think OP should try and play other tanks.

 

Juggernat has charge, push, friend aggro/damage reducing jump, aoe snare, additional stun (makes for total 6 interrupts/stuns/mezz on non-boss) - you got at least 6 attacks from 10m range or more not counting taunt. Also defensive CDs are better than that of vanguard/powertech.

 

Intercede which is the friend aggro/damage reducing jump, absoultely useless in current HM Ops content, since almost all bosses have cleaves (Frontal Cone Damage Abilities). the AOE Snare useful in pvp, since in you don't really encounter anything you can use it on in End Game PVE content. The part is about the 6 abilities that have 10 or + meters is bit of misinformation. Force Charge and Saber Throw are the only abilities that are > 10 meters, Vicious Throw is 10 meters yes, but that can only use that < 29% health on targets, Force Scream/Choke and Push round out your 6 'ranged' abilities, while Force Scream and Choke are used quite extensively in your rototation (if we are going call it that) Force Push is so situational that you can't really use it much...because the last thing you need to do is push a target into the next trash pack, or push the target away from your melee DPS. and oh yeah all bosses are immune to pushbacks, geesh how could i forget that.

 

And Powertech/Vanguard tank does not have a pushback, nor any snare to be honest.

[/Quote]

 

And your point is? if you are tanking right you don't want to push your targets away from you, again sound like the someone who pvp's alot, and assume pve is the same paradigm.

 

Actually I roll vanguard tank and jugger tank, got few assasin tanks in guild. As far as I see it Juggernaut is as good as others and on some bosses better. Yes you got less health because of no +Endurance talent. But you got way better mitigation than vanguard/powertech. I actually find it easier to tank on Jugger than on vanguard, i got more control over incoming damage and heavy hitting mobs.

[/Quote]

 

Not entirely accurate. Juggy's started out the game as the spikey tank, (think Bear tank from WoW) because of the way the attack roll system actually works in the game, you either defend the attack = 0 Damage, or eat it = full damage mitagated by armor/absorb <- if you lucky enough to shield it. As you can see this is why Juggys need a buff to their endurance or health, because if you gear like the class is designed High Defense / Low to Medium Mitigation. We are the class that need the Largest Health Pools so we can take on the chin like the champ prize fighters we are. And Also because of this you can't predict when you are going to take that big hit, so to say you have more control of over your incoming damage vs a mitigation tank (PT or Sins) is incorrect. Yes we have some amazing Defensive CD but those reactive not proactive measures.

 

Where as PT and Sin Tanks are the mitigation tanks Low Defend chance with high Shield/Absorb, your paradigm is well you are going to fail the first roll, so you want to mitigate that full damage as much as possible. so you guys have the smooth and predictable damage/healing curves because of the way Shield/Absorb work. Yet the PT and Assassins are the one that get the Endurance talents which they don't need, because of the way 2 Roll system works, when the Juggy gets nothing but armor/gear/augs to buff our health pool.

 

This problem has only been made worst by the BH/Camp/Dread guard gear, because it basically all designed for the Mitigation tanks, and if you look closely at them, they are all the same except which primary stat is present (Strength/Aim or Willpower) and well of course the armor class but that is on the shell so it is beside the point.

 

So to sum up the best way to fix Juggys, and they need to be fixed, but unfortunetly we will be waiting until there is an Expansion to get these fixes (hopefully) because it far too late to fix the Juggys as they exisit now is the following.

 

Actually give us Gear for our Class (High Defense/Medium Mitigation)

Give us an Endurance buff Talent, (take it away from PT/Vanguard or Sin/Shadows if you have to as they don't need it at all)

Swap out the 4% Flat Mitigation Talent in Vengence for the 4% Internal/Elemental in Immortal ((Kill the Hybrid) so we stop getting advice like 'Use intercede' in a boss fight with a cleave (which by the way is all of them)).

Edited October 30, 2012 by Cyonnelia