Jug Tanks Not as good as other Tanks

[CBRGhostRider]

I would be very upset if bioware does anything to kill the hybrid. Very... very... upset.

 

For pvp, 18/23 has some amazing defenses:

1. With enraged defense and defeaning defense, you have 52+15 = 67% damage reduction and 3% self heal ticks going on. You get this for 10 secs every 45 secs.

2. With unstoppable, you get 52+20 = 72% damage reduction every 15 seconds. If you have enraged defense running, you get 87% damage reduction when you charge. Yes, 87%. I have confirmed this by looking at my DR in my character sheet. This is epic for huttball!

3. With the 2-piece vindicator armorings, you get an 8% self-heal every 20 seconds. And as a tank you should absolutely be using intercede on cooldown in pvp.

4. Along with taunt, and AoE taunt, you also get intercede to provide damage reduction for your target.

5. When you reach 30% health (most classes get their execute here), pop endure pain to increase your max health by 30%, and then use pvp medpack to heal for 35% of that max health. That is a 10k medpack right there, and more temp health from endure pain itself. It is VERY depressing for dps to see you do that.

6. Sonic barrier every 9 secs if hybrid.

7. Your saber ward has blade turning. Pop it at the right moment (just as a sniper is finishing ambush) and smile as he guaranteed misses. Even with his 30% accuracy buff, he WILL MISS! Your saber ward will also put you at 30+50 defense and 25% tech/force DR for some time.

8. And you still got invincible.

 

Utility:

1. Your stagger based charge will root someone for 3 seconds. Yes, even if they have full resolve. Or even if that person is an assassin who has popped shroud.

2. 45 sec aoe mez, force choke, force charge.

3. Friggin unstoppable. I will never play pvp on my jugg without unstoppable again. Everyone stuck at spawn in voidstar? Are they starting to plant? When the spawn opens up, *charge* that dps down there, get unstoppable. Then laugh as they cc everyone but you, and lob a cybertech grenade at the planters on the door. (Assassins can do this too arguably, w/ shroud)

4. Taunt, intercede, aoe taunt (already covered).

5. Free spammable chilling scream if specced into it.

6. Accuracy and armor debuffs on opponents.

 

What's not to like? Trust me, for focus fire and guarding friendlies, jug tanks are awesome!!

Edited October 30, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[Cyonnelia]

I would be very upset if bioware does anything to kill the hybrid. Very... very... upset.

 

For pvp, 18/23 has some amazing defenses:

1. With enraged defense and defeaning defense, you have 52+15 = 67% damage reduction and 3% self heal ticks going on. You get this for 10 secs every 45 secs.

2. With unstoppable, you get 52+20 = 72% damage reduction every 15 seconds. If you have enraged defense running, you get 87% damage reduction when you charge. Yes, 87%. I have confirmed this by looking at my DR in my character sheet. This is epic for huttball!

3. With the 2-piece vindicator armorings, you get an 8% self-heal every 20 seconds. And as a tank you should absolutely be using intercede on cooldown in pvp.

4. Along with taunt, and AoE taunt, you also get intercede to provide damage reduction for your target.

5. When you reach 30% health (most classes get their execute here), pop endure pain to increase your max health by 30%, and then use pvp medpack to heal for 35% of that max health. That is a 10k medpack right there, and more temp health from endure pain itself. It is VERY depressing for dps to see you do that.

6. Sonic barrier every 9 secs if hybrid.

7. Your saber ward has blade turning. Pop it at the right moment (just as a sniper is finishing ambush) and smile as he guaranteed misses. Even with his 30% accuracy buff, he WILL MISS! Your saber ward will also put you at 30+50 defense and 25% tech/force DR for some time.

8. And you still got invincible.

 

Utility:

1. Your stagger based charge will root someone for 3 seconds. Yes, even if they have full resolve. Or even if that person is an assassin who has popped shroud.

2. 45 sec aoe mez, force choke, force charge.

3. Friggin unstoppable. I will never play pvp on my jugg without unstoppable again. Everyone stuck at spawn in voidstar? Are they starting to plant? When the spawn opens up, *charge* that dps down there, get unstoppable. Then laugh as they cc everyone but you, and lob a cybertech grenade at the planters on the door. (Assassins can do this too arguably, w/ shroud)

4. Taunt, intercede, aoe taunt (already covered).

5. Free spammable chilling scream if specced into it.

6. Accuracy and armor debuffs on opponents.

 

What's not to like? Trust me, for focus fire and guarding friendlies, jug tanks are awesome!!

 

 

Ok well all of that is true, but the OP was primarly complaining about performance in PVE not PVP, your whole argument is moot.

 

But i am so tired of people expounding the virtues of the Hybrid in PVE...which there are none anymore because the biggest virtue died when Bioware moved way from a Tank/Off Tank Dynamic, since most if not all fights require 2 Main Tanks, not an Off Tank ( which is a tank by defination that steps in if and when the Main tank dies or tanks adds only), the Hybrid loses all of the utility in PVE. It may be still viable in PVP even with the suggested swap of talents i made, but it would destroy it's viability in PVE which is the goal. Full Immortal is superior in today's PVE Ops, and bioware need to make it clear to all it's customers.

[Omophorus]

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to complain about Juggy tanking at the moment (valid or otherwise), but HP is a really dumb one.

 

Nothing hits hard enough to lose sleep over, and whilst big numbers are easy to show off, inability to survive anything in this game (including TFB HM) with even 24k HP means there's a PEBKAC problem, either with the tank or the healers.

[CBRGhostRider]

Ok well all of that is true, but the OP was primarly complaining about performance in PVE not PVP, your whole argument is moot.

 

But i am so tired of people expounding the virtues of the Hybrid in PVE...which there are none anymore because the biggest virtue died when Bioware moved way from a Tank/Off Tank Dynamic, since most if not all fights require 2 Main Tanks, not an Off Tank ( which is a tank by defination that steps in if and when the Main tank dies or tanks adds only), the Hybrid loses all of the utility in PVE. It may be still viable in PVP even with the suggested swap of talents i made, but it would destroy it's viability in PVE which is the goal. Full Immortal is superior in today's PVE Ops, and bioware need to make it clear to all it's customers.

 

Our guild has cleared 5/5 TFB HM, and my jugg and a sintank tank it. The only problem I have with my hybrid juggie in PvE is the initial aggro, when I start a fight. This is because everyone starts off with 0 on the aggro table, and if I pick up a boss first, then without my taunts the sintank inevitably rips aggro. This is because we both have the same 200% threat from tank stance, but he has way more dps.

 

It sucks, but I always let him take any boss first, and swap in when appropriate as mechanics demand. Once the swaps and taunt mechanics get going, you won't rip aggro from me. Also generally any fight that has an aggro wipe, you can still maintain threat if you want to blow all taunts (single target, aoe, single target) and then the boss is yours. But I don't like doing that usually....

 

Now would a pure 31-point immortal be better for PvE with it's high threat abilities (crushing blow, backhand) and it's quicker rage generation? Sure it would! But it would absolutely suck compared to the hybrid in pvp. Let me re-phrase... The pure immortal is slightly better than the hybrid in PvE. The hybrid is vastly better than the 31-immortal in PvP. And given that I do not want to re-spec for pvp (I pve and pvp everyday) I just stick to the pvp build. It is more than enough for pve.

 

EDIT: BTW forgot to add that in terms of mitigation, the hybrid is better even in PvE. Producing sonic barriers more often, 4% all DR vs 4% I/E and 4% absorb, and unstoppable DR and CC immunity... all these make the hybrid better at mitigating in PvE as well. So in PvE 31-immortal has the edge in threat and rage gen, and hybrid has the edge in mitigation.

 

Don't misunderstand me. I would LOVE it if they re-designed the immortal tree, which really needs to be looked at. But are jugs inferior today? Not really. And BTW, don't hold your breath on Bioware. Judging from their history, the marauders will get another buff in 1.6, the mercs some meaningless changes, and the operatives nerfed.

Edited October 31, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[verfallen]

I would be very upset if bioware does anything to kill the hybrid. Very... very... upset.

 

For pvp, 18/23 has some amazing defenses:

1. With enraged defense and defeaning defense, you have 52+15 = 67% damage reduction and 3% self heal ticks going on. You get this for 10 secs every 45 secs.

2. With unstoppable, you get 52+20 = 72% damage reduction every 15 seconds. If you have enraged defense running, you get 87% damage reduction when you charge. Yes, 87%. I have confirmed this by looking at my DR in my character sheet. This is epic for huttball!

3. With the 2-piece vindicator armorings, you get an 8% self-heal every 20 seconds. And as a tank you should absolutely be using intercede on cooldown in pvp.

4. Along with taunt, and AoE taunt, you also get intercede to provide damage reduction for your target.

5. When you reach 30% health (most classes get their execute here), pop endure pain to increase your max health by 30%, and then use pvp medpack to heal for 35% of that max health. That is a 10k medpack right there, and more temp health from endure pain itself. It is VERY depressing for dps to see you do that.

6. Sonic barrier every 9 secs if hybrid.

7. Your saber ward has blade turning. Pop it at the right moment (just as a sniper is finishing ambush) and smile as he guaranteed misses. Even with his 30% accuracy buff, he WILL MISS! Your saber ward will also put you at 30+50 defense and 25% tech/force DR for some time.

8. And you still got invincible.

 

Utility:

1. Your stagger based charge will root someone for 3 seconds. Yes, even if they have full resolve. Or even if that person is an assassin who has popped shroud.

2. 45 sec aoe mez, force choke, force charge.

3. Friggin unstoppable. I will never play pvp on my jugg without unstoppable again. Everyone stuck at spawn in voidstar? Are they starting to plant? When the spawn opens up, *charge* that dps down there, get unstoppable. Then laugh as they cc everyone but you, and lob a cybertech grenade at the planters on the door. (Assassins can do this too arguably, w/ shroud)

4. Taunt, intercede, aoe taunt (already covered).

5. Free spammable chilling scream if specced into it.

6. Accuracy and armor debuffs on opponents.

 

What's not to like? Trust me, for focus fire and guarding friendlies, jug tanks are awesome!!

 

You sir are the perfect exemple why PvE has trouble getting balanced. All those points are very valid...in a pvp discussions.

 

This is NOT a PvP discussion.

 

I lost count of the ammount of PvE **** up done to the classes since launch due to PvP consideration. Mainly, that strategy is a huge threat dump in PvE, so yes the full immortal tree need some loving.

[CBRGhostRider]

You sir are the perfect exemple why PvE has trouble getting balanced. All those points are very valid...in a pvp discussions.

 

This is NOT a PvP discussion.

 

I lost count of the ammount of PvE **** up done to the classes since launch due to PvP consideration. Mainly, that strategy is a huge threat dump in PvE, so yes the full immortal tree need some loving.

 

I only agree with you on one point, that immortal needs re-work, which is why I even spec hybrid.

 

But PvE and jug tanks? Isn't clearing TFB HM comfortably, an indication that jugg tanks are good enough in PvE? I mean that is the highest tier of PvE content available today.

 

Once again... I agree that immortal needs re-work. I disagree that Jug tanks are not as good as other tanks even in PvE.

[verfallen]

I only agree with you on one point, that immortal needs re-work, which is why I even spec hybrid.

 

But PvE and jug tanks? Isn't clearing TFB HM comfortably, an indication that jugg tanks are good enough in PvE? I mean that is the highest tier of PvE content available today.

 

Once again... I agree that immortal needs re-work. I disagree that Jug tanks are not as good as other tanks even in PvE.

 

Ah you misunderstood. I'm not saying jug cannot clear content, simply pointing out an attitude since launch that has been a rather big issue imho in balancing.

 

Had more in mind lower level shadow/sin tanking (that is not viable pre-40 anymore versus other tanks) sorc healing and dps, merc's arsenal tree, and operative's concealment.

 

All were due to pvp whiner, who think warzones are the sole end-game worth the detour, and that its ok to **** up PvE content so long as THEY are balanced.

 

Presently, jugs are perfectly viable as tank, altough some groups with lots of ranged at big distance from one another can be very annoying. The full immortal tree need however some loving outside of ressource management in the top tier, or a better suited 31 point ability.

[IronScarlet]

I would be very upset if bioware does anything to kill the hybrid. Very... very... upset.

 

 

What's not to like? Trust me, for focus fire and guarding friendlies, jug tanks are awesome!!

 

First I would like to say get off this guy, for talking about the hybrid jugg. They are fine in pve and are far superior in pvp like others have said, Full immortal = better Aoe threat, hybrid = better mitigation. Omg you have a choice it’s a free country. Hybrid tanks do just fine, all you nay Sayers need to get over yourself.

 

Second, bw has a tendency of screwing stuff that don’t need touching. Before 1.2 I post a build that allowed 6 sec free force scream with blade barrier (force scream shield). I posted it on the forums, a lot of skeptics with that build but after 3 weeks some people post about loving the build. Not op but something different. 1.3 bw removed a 3 sec reduction of force power with shii-sho form = killed build. I quit the next month. I hate cookie cutter builds because we all know how they end. Hybrid are unique no one really knows how it’s going to end. Bw likes its cookie cutter plan but its driving a lot of us away. They need some diversity a 4 build in a 3 build arch isn’t bad it’s just another playtime sink and they need to understand this and so does some of the negative player base, most hybrid builds are viable. Don’t blame the builds, blame the player, and just from an observation of play this mmo has fewer skilled player than others and a lot more hallo-weenies. ( yes I said it cry if u want)

 

 

A jug tank will stay alive long enough to hold a node BUT...

You will NEVER see a jug tank guarding a node solo, get attacked by 2 players, kill the 2 attackers, and then cancel the "inc support" request.

Geared sintanks eat 2vs1's fer breakfast.

 

...take yer pick...

 

Your right a jug tank 2v1 by himself will eventually lose if let alone, but A jugg hybrid tank with a healer can go 2 v 5+ all day long. IA/op is a juggs best friend . Intercede is a Big cherry on a well balance mitigation sundae. All tanks have there nitch, ours is not damage it’s protection.

[Necroscop]

First I would like to apologise for my English I know it’s bad but I would like to share my experience with tank profession too.

 

I have been playing with my Jugger since first day this game come out I did even lvl up as a tank and as much as I love my jugger tank after playing with shadow I must say jugger suck compeer to shadow. I still prefer playing with my jugger as I know this class very well now, but shadow have much better tools for tank. There is only two thing jugger have better his combat graphics look more fluid compeer to shadow where sometimes it simse like I’m just standing there when I play on my shadow, jugger its definitely more mobile and his combat look fast and fluid. And second its his armour debuff this is one of his best tools 16% armour debuf by doing just one smash.

As a jugger if you know this class you can tank anything without any problem but shadow its better in every area:

 

AOE agro shadow its better

 

Dose more damage

 

With correct rotation you heal yourself a lot

 

On bosses with knock back like second boss in LI you do not have to run to him as shadow cannot be knock back ( when using correct rotacion)

 

CC its extremely usefully in HM, ops etc juger have none- CC shadow have its very good as allow you to skip almost everything in HM’s allowing to complete them very fast. I have never been told on start of HM yeee we have jugger tank, but with shadow I get always yee we have shadow this will be fast run.

 

Interrupt have 10m rage this to me it very big advantage jugger with 4m interrupt have to relay on adder players a lot. If you guys remember droid boss in LI before they did make him easy, with jugger was always pain to do him when you drag him around a room if he did drop bubble you have to move him but sometimes he can not be move when he does his cast you move away to not stand inside buble then he cast his fire and then as a jugger you have to run inside bubble to interrupt. Shadow have no problem with this as he have 10 m range same its with malgus in FE sometimes he will jump away and then start casting if none of udder players interrupt with jugger all are death with shadow again no problem. there is few more examples but this 2 should give you picture why 4 m suck. So interrupt in my opinion its huge advantage, as a tank I like to be in control of battle but with 4 m interrupt sometimes I have to rely on party members and with random group this does not work always.

 

Pull its next one which give advantage to shadow. We all have push, jugger have leap shadow have run. But jugger have no pull we have intercede but pull its better. if I see agro on healer I can very fast pull target to me. On my jugger I can intercede to healer and then jump back to my previous target but this take sometimes too long and with good DPS you will lose agro too DPS when doing this so then you need to use taunt. So it’s much more work, shadow will just pull without moving any ware, this method its nice fast just much better.

 

Levelling with shadow its much better and faster too for example when I did lvl up my shadow I was able to complete every heroic even heroic 4 by myself there is no need to look for group as shadow its superior and every heroic can be solo. After getting to lvl 50 I could very easy solo Heroic in Black Hole in columi gear with companion been in lvl 45 green gear . to do this on my jugger I have full camping gear (fully modified as Bioware armour suck) with my companion in full camping gear booth of us are fully augmented, and I will still find trovix hard work. But on shadow its walk in a park.

 

Invisibility- its next big advantage helping you to complete or solo staff much faster.

 

Some people say that jugger can take more damage, I do not know about this as I have notice that with correct rotation on shadow I can survive much longer then on my jugger and my jugger have much better gear I thing after I get my shadow same gear as my jugger have, shadow its much better tank.

 

List why jugger its worst tank in this game could be long but I cannot be ask to writhe more.

I still love and prefer to play with my jugger but I wish jugger tank did have better tanking tools to give you same control on the battlefield as shadow has.

[CBRGhostRider]

AOE agro shadow its better

Agreed.

 

Dose more damage

Agreed.

 

With correct rotation you heal yourself a lot

Well shadows have self heals. But that is because they have lower armor and DR compared to juggs. Their self heals aren't an addition, they are meant to compensate for low armor. Also we get sonic bubble every 9 secs if specced into it, which isn't too bad.

 

On bosses with knock back like second boss in LI you do not have to run to him as shadow cannot be knock back ( when using correct rotacion)

Do you mean when you use shroud? BTW this is very minor, and arguably you could do the same thing with a hybrid through unstoppable.

 

CC its extremely usefully in HM, ops etc juger have none- CC shadow have its very good as allow you to skip almost everything in HM’s allowing to complete them very fast. I have never been told on start of HM yeee we have jugger tank, but with shadow I get always yee we have shadow this will be fast run.

 

Granted. This is a point in shadow's favor.

 

Interrupt have 10m rage this to me it very big advantage jugger with 4m interrupt have to relay on adder players a lot. If you guys remember droid boss in LI before they did make him easy, with jugger was always pain to do him when you drag him around a room if he did drop bubble you have to move him but sometimes he can not be move when he does his cast you move away to not stand inside buble then he cast his fire and then as a jugger you have to run inside bubble to interrupt. Shadow have no problem with this as he have 10 m range same its with malgus in FE sometimes he will jump away and then start casting if none of udder players interrupt with jugger all are death with shadow again no problem. there is few more examples but this 2 should give you picture why 4 m suck. So interrupt in my opinion its huge advantage, as a tank I like to be in control of battle but with 4 m interrupt sometimes I have to rely on party members and with random group this does not work always.

 

Interrupt has 10m range, but 12 sec cooldown for shadow. 10 sec if you spec into the talent in deception tree, which most tanks won't since they go for chain shock in madness. This is generally true for most classes. The longer the range on your interrupt, the longer the cooldown. I can't tell you how awesome an 8-sec interrupt is in pvp, but then again this is a pve discussion.

 

BTW for the droid boss, even if he stops chasing you, you should keep running forward. When he starts to cast incinerate, you charge him to interrupt him. Even if you jump into a bubble by charging him, unstoppable will give you 20% additional DR, so you hardly take any damage. This stands true for any scenario. If you are between 5-10m, you move AWAY from the target and then charge to interrupt.

 

Pull its next one which give advantage to shadow. We all have push, jugger have leap shadow have run. But jugger have no pull we have intercede but pull its better. if I see agro on healer I can very fast pull target to me. On my jugger I can intercede to healer and then jump back to my previous target but this take sometimes too long and with good DPS you will lose agro too DPS when doing this so then you need to use taunt. So it’s much more work, shadow will just pull without moving any ware, this method its nice fast just much better.

Different skillset, yes pull is much easier, but you can achieve the de-aggro effect with intercede+charge like you noted. Anyway, AoE and trash tanking isn't really important endgame, single target tanking is way more important. And jugs excel at it. Again, by limiting the discussion to PvE you guys miss the bigger picture. And why intercede + 8% self heal, and push is so awesome in PvP.

 

 

Levelling with shadow its much better and faster too for example when I did lvl up my shadow I was able to complete every heroic even heroic 4 by myself there is no need to look for group as shadow its superior and every heroic can be solo. After getting to lvl 50 I could very easy solo Heroic in Black Hole in columi gear with companion been in lvl 45 green gear . to do this on my jugger I have full camping gear (fully modified as Bioware armour suck) with my companion in full camping gear booth of us are fully augmented, and I will still find trovix hard work. But on shadow its walk in a park.

 

Invisibility- its next big advantage helping you to complete or solo staff much faster.

Agreed, PvE leveling and FPs are easier with shadow, thanks largely to cloak and sleep.

 

Some people say that jugger can take more damage, I do not know about this as I have notice that with correct rotation on shadow I can survive much longer then on my jugger and my jugger have much better gear I thing after I get my shadow same gear as my jugger have, shadow its much better tank.

 

IMO both tanks are pretty close to each other. Shadow's low armor and DR is offset by self heals.

 

List why jugger its worst tank in this game could be long but I cannot be ask to writhe more.

I still love and prefer to play with my jugger but I wish jugger tank did have better tanking tools to give you same control on the battlefield as shadow has.

 

Look, if it means anything... I have all three tank toons leveled to 50. While I have not tanked extensively on the shadow and PT (I mostly pvp dps on those) I've done it. PTs have AoE aggro easy mode, and the best armor and base DR. But they have **** cooldowns.. Shadows have lots of utility, and very good dps. Shroud is very powerful, but only 5 secs. Jugs have the best defensive cooldowns, but suck at dps and aoe aggro.

 

You might think the other tanks do much better, but the grass is always greener on the other side. Jump into the assassin forums, and you will see how enviable they are of the jugg and PT armor and DR.

 

Yes, immortal needs to be improved. But neither of the tanks are way better than the other when it comes to PvE. Just choose one that fits your playstyle best IMHO.

Edited November 1, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[Siorac]

How much less armour do Shadows have, exactly? I'm just asking because Combat Technique increases armour rating by 115% while both Soresu and Ion Cell only increases it by 60%.

[CBRGhostRider]

How much less armour do Shadows have, exactly? I'm just asking because Combat Technique increases armour rating by 115% while both Soresu and Ion Cell only increases it by 60%.

 

I think they sit around 6-6.5k armor and 38-40% DR. My jugg sits at 8k armor and 52.5% DR.