A Tale of Two Games: ToR and WoW - Review!

[MeliaElentari]

I'm not sure how my argument is fallacious. I'd argue that you're being disingenuous and that you're just cherry-picking features: new MMOs SHOULD have better graphics but SHOULDN'T have rated BGs. If you're going to continue your argument, my question is why graphics over rated BGs? Where's the distinction apart from your own arbitrary judgment?

 

Wasn't it your own "arbitrary judgement" that created this thread in the first place?

 

I would rather have better gfx over pvp, because i dislike pvp, that being my opinion makes it real to me.

 

Covering up a list of what YOU think is wrong by calling it a review is misleading to say the least. And honestly, you laugh at ToR fanboys/girls while just unmasking yourself as a WoW nerd.

[djsmileey]

All I read from OP was nonsense.

 

The writing is very Biased, and quite frankly frustrating. I understand that you've participated in a lot of video games, and it seems you can throw together a sentence without coming across as a moron. That said, you're opinions are really weak.

 

You're entire review is centered around WoW, which is perfectly fine. However your examples you use are pretty pathetic.

WoW has moved us past the trivialities of fetch questing and now we do cool stuff like lassoing dragons, bombing runs or mind-controlling giants.

99% of quests in WoW is collect 10, 20, 30 of anonymous items, or kill 10, 20, 30 mobs. There is absolutely no involvement and the fun quests you refer to -- are very few and far between.

 

Another interesting point is the combat, most of which you said was basically irrelevant. It feels no more or no less clunky that any other MMO I've played. Probably less so than many others. Your arguement for Cover and Stealth is pretty weak, if you max out talents, and abilities that reduce your stealth and cover response times you become increasingly stronger. I play(ed) a Sniper and am completely stomping people in PvP with minimal effort.

 

Speaking of PvP, I also played and ranked quite well in Arena, but you won't see me boasting about it like I cured cancer(come on man, who keeps a gaming resume to brag about.) I love it! The pvp is fun, it's refreshing to see new warzone types and Ilum is supposed to have one of the best World PvP zones available, but I suppose you've already mastered that too.

 

PvP Good or Bad? = Your opinion, just like mine. Personally I think yours stinks!

-- Same goes with companions, just gonna breeze right through it.

 

Does The Old Republic have a chance? Not with what we see on day 1. No chance. Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR. There are many changes that need to make their way into ToR for it to be a competitor to 2nd tier MMOs, let alone giants like WoW.

 

You didn't actually provide any information here. You simply stated your opinion. Try providing some insight that isn't just your opinion.

 

UI mods have been requested since beta. A combat log has been requested since beta. There are absolutely no features that even begin to address the social element of the game: guild achievements, guild skill trees, etc. There's a need for competitive PvP, LFG finders, etc, etc. These shouldn't be post-release patches, this is 2012! These are basic elements of modern MMORPGs. I don' think ToR is finished.

 

Basic elements? Half the "elements" you posted were not even IN WOW until the past year. Have the decency to at least provide all of the details and not just the parts you want people to see.

 

LoL! That entire post is laughable, the more I read through your post, I find the overwhelming size of your head more relevant than the topic. Not a single point throughout your entire post is actually backed with any sort of substance, it's all conjecture and opinion.

 

You state things so matter-of-fact, but you're leaving out many enjoyable aspects of the game. Simply stating the parts you didn't like by comparing them to a game that's been seasoned over seven years doesn't make a good review man.

 

TL;DR -- OP's Entire post is one giant opinion and heavily biased towards WoW. Claims that fanboys are keeping the truth from coming out when he is just a huge WoW fanboy. (double negative?)

 

Drops names like they matter and thinks his **** doesn't stink. What a waste of my time.

[PjPablo]

I find it sad how many people equate disagreement with a flawed argument to being a Fanboy.

 

"You don't agree with me? You must be a fanboy! Derp!"

 

Most people will say the game has room for improvement. That does not mean that we have to agree with the powerfully flawed opinion on the OP (Note I am saying opinion, not review. What he did was not a review.)

 

Ah, no. When people say "I hear what you are saying but I don't agree. I feel otherwise. Her is my experience......" thats a simple difference of opinion.

 

When people say "You're wrong. Go back to XXXX MMO" thats a fanboi and that is what I am referring to in my post.

[Justgriffin]

How can you possibly compare a game that hasnt been released to WoW? Riddle me that!

[MeliaElentari]

The game is great, but it needs a ton of work. There are some glaring feature omissions that make me feel like I'm playing WoW from 2004 with a story.

 

Rather WoW from 2004 with a story than WoW in 2011 with no story/plot/decent gameplay

[Celestry]

My question is why all the haters as well as all the out and out fanboys see themselves as having the most valid oppinion on the game, and that their view is flawless and all logical people will take it as gospel? The haters think the game is ultimate fail, and they will be proven right. The fanboys think the game is the best ever and will destroy all games that came before, and they will be proven right. Neither are industry experts, who have done months if not years of market research and developement on a product. Bioware's experts may not be flawless, but looking at the market and developing games is what they do. They have done very well so far in that job with other games. What makes some forum poster think they are more qualified, who is armed with nothing more than their personal oppinion? Where a corporation with people who are experts in marketing, have piles of market reaserch, have information we do not have, are going to be wrong because they are right because they said so.

[Dovafeyn]

The comparison is warranted because a) they are both MMORPGs and b) Bioware/EA explicitly asserted that they are going after the prime competitor (WoW).

 

Can you link where the post is from BW saying they were going after WoW?

 

Because it my understanding that they wanted to carve their own path and style.

[ckbPolaris]

We get to hit our friends with light sabers without the neighbors thinking we're tardballs. I guarantee this game has legs.

[Skerry]

Well let's see. Many of us can do this too.

 

I have played Meridian, Runescape, Everquest, Everquest 2, Pirates of the Carribean, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies, RIFT, AION, Lineage 1, Lineage 2, EVE, Vanguard, City of Heroes, City of Villains, DC Universe Online, WWII Online, Shadowbane, Horizons, Warhammer Online, Conan, Lord of the Rings online, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Earth and Beyond and yes World of Warcraft

 

- pretty much every mainstream title that has come along. I do this, because one never knows what the next great MMO is going to be unless you try them; the fun part is each of those games up there had something going for them, some not enough to give any staying power, others were ingenious even revolutionary but the MMO community was not ready for them.

 

There is one major flaw in your review OP; they are completely your opinion and lack the full picture.

 

Of all of those games listed above, only 2 have "died". Earth and Beyond and Shadowbane.

 

Where doe SWTOR fit in, nobody has any idea yet. It is far too early to make any claims as to it's success or it's demise. MMO's need a good 6 months to stabilize before you can truly see what they are going to do or become.

 

In that 6 months you pay attention to what they do, how they address issues, how they interact with the people and what they announce will be coming down the pipe. There are several stages in that 6 months you need to watch for.

 

1) Launch; how does the launch go. While the quality of the launch is not indicitave of success or failure; how they respond and what they do and how quickly they do can be. UO, Everquest, WOW, Anarchy Online, WWII online, Conan, Everquest 2 and WOW had some of the worst launches ever. Anarchy Online still holds the title of worst launch ever period, of course that is not a title companies are striving to capture.

 

2) After launch, watch the next couple of months to see how they address game breaking bugs, corruptions, crashes, continuity, server loads etc.

 

If they take more than 2 (maybe 3 depending on the list) to clear those up; that is a bad sign. Although - STILL not truly indicative. EQ had bugs that existed at launch some 10 years later. However, the MMO community has become much less forgiving, mainly because there is so much choice, so watch to see how those are addressed.

 

Giving a week or two for YOUR issue to get fixed, not good telling points as yours is may or may not be as important as anothers. Look at overall game breaking issues and playability issues.

 

3) Watch to see how they interact with the players, this gives you an idea of how responsive, attentive and caring they are about what is going on. Again though, you need to be completely objective with this. While ones issues/desires/requests may seem like the most important thing-chances are they are not and there are other more widespread things being talked about. Such as, oh - the Auction system (puke)

 

4) finally watch for what people are saying as the reach the upper levels and the end game. THIS is where games get broken. Players suffer through a lot of things, bugs - bad treatment, neglect; they don't put up with nothing to do.

 

Many games have seen severe drops because the end game had nothing in it (A LA Conan, Warhammer) at the end game to keep people going. They will address it, they always do, but will it be in time.

 

The things that kill MMO's are not what other games have or don't have. If they really liked what those other games have or don't they would still be there and not looking for other games to play.

 

Players want something new, and they want that something new to be fun, challenging, and different enough to keep them going. After all, ALL mmo's are basically the same. Saying SWTOR is WOW in space is really limiting, SWTOR is EVERY OTHER MMO in space is more accurate.

 

It doesn't really have anything innovative, but then again neither did WOW for many years. It isn't realistic graphics, but then again most MMO's are not.

 

TO review SWTOR you need to wait for launch, a gutcheck - sure.

 

However, as someone who has played MMO's for longer than I care to think about and have played more titles than the average gamer (not all, I know there are others of you out there who know what I am talking about) I can tell you SWTOR is not DOA.

 

It has many things going for it, and only time will tell if it will hold up and carry on and join the others in it's class.

 

What is it's class? EVERY mmo except WOW. WOW is in a class of it's own; good bad or indifferent does not matter. MMO's that can grab and hold subs in the hundreds of thousands or more are by all means successful. The fact wow has umpteen million makes it an anomaly and good for them.

 

From what has been seen thus far, SWTOR is starting off like many other MMO's and that is a good thing for them. Now - it is time for the long term signs to start showing up.

 

THEN we will know how it will fare.

 

Whatever game you play however, enjoy it - don't try to ruin someone else s fun just because you are disappointed or don't like it. Carry on with what you enjoy, that is after all the point of these silly things that take up so much or our time.

 

Enjoy and Good Night

-Skerry.

[djsmileey]

Well let's see. Many of us can do this too.

 

There is one major flaw in your review OP; they are completely your opinion and lack the full picture.

 

 

 

I said the exact same thing in my overly long review right above you too

[Beleal]

We get to hit our friends with light sabers without the neighbors thinking we're tardballs. I guarantee this game has legs.

 

I'm not even a huge Star Wars fan and this made my day!

[dvvx]

Wasn't it your own "arbitrary judgement" that created this thread in the first place?

 

See, proving points with facts and data means that it's objective and not arbitrary. A wide perspective and both positive as well as negative points in a review are also testaments to objectivity. I knew you'd try to strawman me after I destroyed your previous argument. Try to stay on point.

 

Someone's argument was originally that PvP is adequate and asserted that the burden of proof is on me. I agreed that I have the burden and consequently showed that PvP is by far lacking.

[DualJH]

Comparing a finely tuned game with 7+ years of polish to a brand new release is rather unfair as well.

 

Though, I guess the world is unfair and SWTOR has to be compared to what else is currently out there - not to where the other things were at their release.

 

When you buy a car do you compare it with what is currently on the market or do you compare it with a model T? Ya know, where cars were at their release......

 

Just saying.

 

Its expected to have so much polish and so many features because that's where gaming as pushed the MMO envelope. You don't make a product with the aim for it to be as good as (insert name here) was at launch. You make it to surpass where it is now.

[Celestry]

TBH, the story part is so strong in many aspects, I think it will actually bye Bioware time to fix the other problems. It is likely to get more of a grace period because people will get caught up in the different stories, and want to see them to completion.

[orthancstone]

It means that the gamer needs to manually press 1-1-1-1-1 (or right-click like a madman) to use the regular "white attack" ability and to generate resources that one may use (in the case of the Warrior-archetypes). Not only is this boring, but it literally provides zero gameplay improvement - what is the reasoning behind no auto-attack? Who knows.

 

You do realize that this form of gameplay is so terrible that even Blizzard is replicating it with a brand new class in 2012, right?

 

I can understand finding it tedious, but it's obviously proven enough that even the giant of the MMO industry is willing to give it a shot.

[DualJH]

You do realize that this form of gameplay is so terrible that even Blizzard is replicating it with a brand new class in 2012, right?

 

I can understand finding it tedious, but it's obviously proven enough that even the giant of the MMO industry is willing to give it a shot.

 

Personally, having no auto-attack is something I actually kind of enjoy. It's a nice change. Also, you usually dont have to spam 1 more than 2 or 3 times before pulling off a few other moves.

 

However, I wouldn't be against a future patch that added an auto attack.

 

End of the day, it's not a deal breaker.

[Mogitu]

Someone's argument was originally that PvP is adequate and asserted that the burden of proof is on me. I agreed that I have the burden and consequently showed that PvP is by far lacking.

 

you are not the one to judge what is and what is not lacking, let the other millions of gamers do. and in the end we will see what the majority thinks by how this game will go up or downhill.

 

also you didnt show anything other then trowing your own opinions on a forum, to which you are fully entitled. you obviously havent noticed it but your opinion is not any proof in whatever kind of way you think it is.

 

get of your high horse.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Mogitu

[doxshund]

WoW vs SWTOR Edited December 19, 2011 by doxshund

[Macheath]

Wasn't it your own "arbitrary judgement" that created this thread in the first place?

 

I would rather have better gfx over pvp, because i dislike pvp, that being my opinion makes it real to me.

 

Covering up a list of what YOU think is wrong by calling it a review is misleading to say the least. And honestly, you laugh at ToR fanboys/girls while just unmasking yourself as a WoW nerd.

 

Disagree with him all you like, but this is a review by definition. Reviews are simply a critical evalutation of something, which is exactly what this is. It's a strawman to call it otherwise in an attempt to belittle the author. Attack his points, not the man himself.

 

-Macheath.

[Neeseek]

You're comparing the release of an MMO in 2004 with the release of an MMO in 2012. See a problem with that?

 

If you started a car company today, would you want your bar to be the Ford Model-T?

 

You're comparing an MMO that had 7 years of polishing to one that just launched.

 

See a problem with that?

 

 

Sit down.

[Idiots]

WoW fanbase-10 mil

SW fanbase-100 mil

 

PvE

WoW endgame-brain dead raids and even heroics arent that bad. Dont try to post saying its hard. killed every boss prenerf until dragonsoul

Swtor endgame- we do not know for sure yet. Cant be worse than wow

 

PvP

WoW- mages/rogues dominate melee/caster roles and a truly imbalanced portion of the game going on 4 years now

Swtor- pvp seems fun. No one seems to have an advantage vs everyone at this point so that is always a good thing.

 

Kids will complain about everything. WoW is fine but it has past its prime(as seen by its tremendous drop is subs over past few years). SW fan base is vast. With ages ranging for children to the elderly. It is a beloved franchise and Bioware will not risk ruining that. They have done a great job so far and we are all interested to see how they keep improving the game post-launch.

[Mysry]

you are not the one to judge what is and what is not lacking, let the other millions of gamers do. and in the end we will see what the majority thinks by how this game will go up or downhill.

 

also you didnt show anything other then trowing your own opinions on a forum, to which you are fully entitled. you obviously havent noticed it but your opinion is not any proof in whatever kind of way you think it is.

 

get of your high horse.

 

Ahh but there it is as a consumer he is one to judge just like you or I.

 

After reading this thread it makes me wonder where the political spectrum lies in the fanboy err- playerbase is in this game.

[dvvx]

You're comparing an MMO that had 7 years of polishing to one that just launched.

 

See a problem with that?

 

 

Sit down.

 

Actually, there is no problem with that. At all. As someone keeps mentioning the car analogy, it seems absolutely asinine to compare a 2012 Nissan to the Ford Model-T. It's completely ridiculous to compare ToR now to WoW on release day. I mean, I guess we could compare ToR to Pong, in which case ToR wins by a long shot, right?

[Mattalica]

Disagree with most points.

 

Huttball is really fun - if you want to go at it from some kind of statistical mathematical imbalalance perspective, I'd suggest rather taking up another college course and not a game. It's one of the most fun BG's I've played. Your PvP rant is meaningless to me.

 

Combat is better than wow, although similar, and I love wow. i have not enjoyed a class as much as my bounty hunter purely because of the combat being so fun and exciting.

 

No matter how experienced or educated you think you are, your opinion remains that - yours. Sorry if you end up not enjoying the game, I know I am, and will.

[Apocalypsezero]

So far for me the game is good. Other players' opinions may vary.