Whos the bad guys?

[MidnightFreezer]

Hah, I love massively necro'd posts.

 

Anyway, as I am finishing up my first Imp now after several pubs, I cannot see any way someone could argue the Empire are not the bad guys. Every time you choose a dark side option on pub people act horrified and say you are a monster. Pretty much every time you choose a light side option as an Imp you are basically ridiculed and called weak or stupid unless you can justify it with some sort of alternative reasoning. Half of the Empire story arcs are basically to do evil for evil's sake, or at least for very minimal advantage. There might be bad apples in the Republic and there might be some non-monsters in the Empire, but both are the exception from everything I have seen in this game (and most of the bad apple pubs can actually be defied/turned in on those missions).

[TrainingPigeon]

the way I see it, its a matter of belief if we are talking about actual events and not a story then (the films not included )

then neither is inherently good or bad the sith for example pure blooded sith based there idea of peace as war they believed that being at peace was bad being weak made them bad jedi have the opposite beliefs as you know so I think labelling them either good or bad is the wrong label for this conversation I would go more along the lines of who has it wrong an who doesn't or what has been instilled in you from a young age what beliefs have been drilled into you ....for all we know when we die god might knock us back saying we didn't kill enough...that would be a kick in the nuts right? it think the label of bad and good only applies to no force sensitive's but that's my opinion

[light_senshi]

This is one of those things where D&D just gets it wrong. Good and evil are quite relative based on your culture. I'm figuring that you're familiar with the phrase: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

 

Given how Star Wars is presented, though. I'd have to say that Sith are "evil".

[Gwena]

Always an entertaining topic. From the perspective of an outsider, I'd say that the Empire clearly wins the "who are the bad guys" contest. Of course, the Republic has its wicked parts and certainly has some skeletons in the closet. But the evils that the Republic sometimes does covertly or tries to cover up -- because such evils are not widely accepted in the Republic -- are often things that the Empire would do as a matter of course.

 

I think this (paraphrased) conversation on Imperial Belsavis sums it up pretty well.

 

 

Imperial Scientist: The Republic has been performing violent experiments on alien races to learn about their strengths and weaknesses for strategic purposes.

LS character: I can't believe the Republic would do that, how horrible!

Imperial Scientist: I know! Can you believe they beat us to it? We've got to get that data!

LS character: ...

 

I started on the Republic side, and though I enjoy the Empire's class stories more, I felt like the planet/side quests were really hitting me over the head trying to remind me that the Empire was the more "evil" faction. Killing your fellow students, poisoning escaped slaves, contaminating Republic kolto tanks with the Rakghoul virus . . . and that's even without choosing dark side options.

[Callaron]

Yep, definitely the Empire.

And lets not forget...

the Empire is ruled by a megalomaniac that wants to EAT the whole friggin' universe and every living being in it.

Which fortunately you don't learn as a lackey of the Empire, since there isn't a single one of my characters that wouldn't instantly go rogue upon hearing that.

And another reason why Malgus would've made a much better Emperor.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2013 by Callaron

[Drox]

Wasn't it the Republic/Jedi who tried to commit genocide against the Sith in the hyperspace wars? Thus the whole cycle of revenge? While the Republic claims to be about democracy and freedom, it's the same as the US of today in comparison. It really depends on your point of view if the ends justifies the means.

 

While the Empire tends to be over the top evil for plot purposes, I think there would be less brainwashed folks within the Empire than the Republic. Since the Imperials know that the're bad apples among them, while the Republic would simply sweep it under the rug to maintain their illusion. That's just my opinion. lol

[Ikorus]

The Sith are the bad guys, plain and simple. No, NOT the Empire, the Sith specifically. Imperial citizens range from villainous scum to loyal patriots trying to protect their own, and as a whole aren't really so bad. A good example is the soldier guarding the force field to the heroic area near the spaceport on Dromund Kaas.

 

Player: "It's good to see the Empire taking care of its people."

Soldier: "Yeh. Some jobs are definitely better than others."

 

When it comes down to it, the Empire is a meritocracy, where doing well sees you and your family rise socially, and doing poorly sees you and your family fall. The PROBLEM with the Empire is that it's run by the Sith, a bunch of loonies with magick powers that do whatever they damn well please all day every day. They don't just kick puppies, they EAT puppies, and make the owners watch before eating them too. Psychos.

 

There are no true good guys. The Jedi are a bunch of paranoid ******es themselves, and the Old Galactic Republic has moooooore than its share of issues. But there are most definitely bad guys, and they're called Sith. Not Imperials. Sith.

[Seireeni]

The Sith are the bad guys, plain and simple. No, NOT the Empire, the Sith specifically.

 

Minus the light sided player characters, I'd say.

[AlexDougherty]

Wasn't it the Republic/Jedi who tried to commit genocide against the Sith in the hyperspace wars? Thus the whole cycle of revenge?

 

The Jedi, not the Republic, definately the Jedi.

 

And that was then, they have redeemed themselves since then, and would generally accept a peace with the Sith if the Sith could be trusted to honour it (which they can't).

 

I know some people say that Revan's genocide against the Sith species targeting anyone with Sith DNA is evidence that the Jedi and the Republic are actually the real bad guys, but Revan is arguably not a true Jedi, and this might even have been part of the emperor's influence, and those Republic officials contributing are either corrupt or idiots.

 

The Sith meanwhile have committed genocide themselves and crimes their are no names for, and so can't hide behind the old "They did it to us first" arguement, which is so old it is weak and feable.

[Drox]

The Sith meanwhile have committed genocide themselves and crimes their are no names for, and so can't hide behind the old "They did it to us first" arguement, which is so old it is weak and feable.

 

Do you have an example of the Sith committing genocide (Besides obviously trying to wipe out the Jedi for revenge) prior to the rule of 2 (Since Darth Krayt in the expanded universe is the only thing I could find, and the obvious destruction of Alderaan in ep 4)?

 

While it's obvious the Sith have killed their fair share of people, I don't think they've ever committed the act as huge as the Jedi trying to wipe out a whole race of people (And almost succeeding). Not saying you're wrong, I just can't find anything about recorded genocide committed by Sith of this timeline.

 

And that was then, they have redeemed themselves since then, and would generally accept a peace with the Sith if the Sith could be trusted to honour it (which they can't).

 

Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't redeem an organization of its crime if those effected still remember it. That's just silly to suggest they should just get over it, even in the real world "good guys" don't forget things that heinous and rarely forgive.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Drox

[Allronix]

Wasn't it the Republic/Jedi who tried to commit genocide against the Sith in the hyperspace wars? Thus the whole cycle of revenge? While the Republic claims to be about democracy and freedom, it's the same as the US of today in comparison. It really depends on your point of view if the ends justifies the means.

 

Okay, after paying through as a Consular, I come on here and hear all this talk of "Imps rulz, Pubs droolz.", and this notion that "Oh, the Republic's just as evil as the Empire. There are no good guys here!" So, I roll a Bounty Hunter and play that through, hoping to find that gray and gray morality or that the Empire were a misunderstood people, maligned with propaganda and outright slander.

 

No, the Republic are NOT angels or saints. But if you think that the Empire are the GOOD guys, you're seriously deluded.

 

1) Genocide? No, the Republic is not innocent. They did try to hunt down the Sith species. According to Lore, they appear to succeed in the long term. However, we also have said species not accepting peace deals or honoring treaties in ANY sense of the word. However, saying that makes the Republic "evil" is a huge case of pot calling the kettle black. What the hell do you call that Imperial officer's concentration camp on Nar Shadaa, complete with piles of corpses, and bodies in ovens?! What do you call the things they're doing to Balmorra?

 

And anyone pointing out the Foundry? Revan was an idiot. He was the Sith Emperor's stooge all along and was too stupid/brainwashed to even notice or care. Those droids would have wiped out a large portion of the Empire, but think of how much side swapping and secret legacies are part of that universe. He was going to wipe out a big chunk of the Republic with that plan, and it played RIGHT into the Sith Emperor's idea of killing everything. (And you really want to argue your side's got the moral high ground when your leader wants to wipe out EVERYTHING in the galaxy? Sure...)

 

2) Meritocracy? BANTHA-SH*T. I suppose if you're human or Sith pureblood, you don't notice the flagrant racism. If you're Chiss, they might tolerate you. If you're swinging a shiny red lightsaber, they're too terrified of you to say anything. But say you're a Twi'lek with a talent for tactics or a Sullistan who can build awesome droids. In the Republic? They aren't blinking an eye when the Twi'lek joins the army and starts winning them battles, and the Sullistan owns a factory building droids that grace the halls of nobility and spacer alike.

 

But in the Empire? Well, the best the Twi'lek is going to get with that tactical talent is leading a slave revolt. The best the Sullistan will manage is being a low-level tech or pet slave to a less-talented human "owner." They're the wrong species so their lives and their contributions don't count. I played a Miraluka hunter, and the damn Imperials were all holding their noses when they deigned to hire me because my guns and track record weren't good enough for them, I was just "alien." Malgus was an exception, but I didn't get the option to defect to his side when it mattered.

 

And on top of that? The preferred way to advance in the Empire is not by hard work, but by undermining and backstabbing your way up the ladder. I'm thinking of that less than intelligent twit on Balmorra who had me undermine the efforts of a half-dozen colleagues so he could better kiss up to the boss. Yes, his boss caught on - too late - but how many careers did he trash in order to get his marginal position. And let's look at the Sith - it's NOT a meritocracy when being a ruler or having any kind of REAL power requires being born with an overdeveloped midichlorine count. The military and Intelligence still are the lackeys of a small, theocratic group of lunatics whose only job qualification appears to be "I can stab the other guy faster than he can stab me." Worse, they are not answerable to any rule of law, as seen with the poor fellow in Dromund Kaas who wants you to stop a bunch of bored Sith babies from hunting down and killing innocent citizens. Sith do as they want, and everyone else just has to suck it up or cheerfully lie down to be slaughtered.

 

So, if you are not the "right" species, have the "right" midichlorine count, and want to work instead of backstab, you aren't going anywhere in the Empire. By what "logic" is THAT a meritocracy?!

 

3) Belsalvis? Anyone calling this "proof" that the Republic is "really the bad guys" is also deluding themselves. Belsalvis is a black eye on the Republic and treated like that. Republic players get to call out the worst abuses and get them shut down, including getting the non-criminal descendants a colony of their own. But any Imperial calling out the conditions here is the pot insulting the kettle, because look at Dromund Kass's perpetual slave revolts out in the jungle. You even have two Imperial scientists marveling with admiration over the Republic's sentient rights abuses, and the Imperial scientist admitting he had the same idea, but couldn't get funding.

 

The Empire is a self-destructive bunch of bloodthirsty thugs who got a lucky shot because they had 300 years to prepare due to Revan and Exile's sheer stupidity. The Republic has its problems and bad apples, but whatever the Republic can do badly the Empire likes to do worse. It is not a "merit"-based society. The only "merit" that counts is Force sensitivity and killing one another. Citizenship is only extended to a small minority based solely on species, and a even smaller group of wizards answer to nothing but their own power games. Yes, there are good people in the Empire and crooks in the Republic...but the proportion of good people in the Empire is the same as crooks in the Republic.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Allronix

[BrianDavion]

There are good and bad on both sides and corruption is in every government so just because someone is on the empire side doesn't mean they are bad right away they might just believe in that type of government and be loyal to it yet it doesn't mean they believe in every bad thing the government does or decides to do. Sometimes the people in charge are who are really respondable for all the bad things since they decide everything and can change and corrupt governments into something it wasn't meant to be. Even the Sith and its council have different sides to it and u can go as far as to say a good and bad side to them.

 

I for one like Revans philosophy and yet both republic and the empire sith and jedi considered him an enemy because his ideas and philosophy weren't one and the same with what the republic or empire believes in I find Revans beliefs to be somewhat middle ground with no sides really. Until there's only one government where both good and bad can coexist all sides for me are good and bad or at least have both in it and you can't judge everyone the same because you believe their side is bad. This is why there are wars and all other things we consider bad maybe if we stopped judging so harshly and without prejudice a lot of it would stop and there would be more peace.

 

Btw what is bad is it something we feel is bad or is something your government decides is bad because what is bad or good can change in people's minds so fast when governments or society decides otherwise so think about that before you judge because how many times has whats good became bad or bad became good? Sometimes things aren't the way they seem and outside influence doesn't help either and that's how I feel about who and what is good or bad and its one big dilemma no matter how you look at it so all you can do is just do what you think is morally right no matter what side you choose.

 

umm no the Republic considered Reven an enemy BECAUSE HE WAS INVADING THEM

[MelodyofLegends]

Wasn't it the Republic/Jedi who tried to commit genocide against the Sith in the hyperspace wars? Thus the whole cycle of revenge? While the Republic claims to be about democracy and freedom, it's the same as the US of today in comparison. It really depends on your point of view if the ends justifies the means.

 

While the Empire tends to be over the top evil for plot purposes, I think there would be less brainwashed folks within the Empire than the Republic. Since the Imperials know that the're bad apples among them, while the Republic would simply sweep it under the rug to maintain their illusion. That's just my opinion. lol

 

I agree with both points, first off Yep the Republic is very guilty of genocide.

 

Remember that the Republic is the organization that went out of their way to eliminate the sith species native to Korribaan who were devoted to the dark jedi. in the era of swtor are EXTINCT. the red skined purebloods are all that remains of the sith species ancestry and those traits will ultimately die out entirely by Anakin's time.

 

another thing the Republic's propaganda commissioners conveniently forget to acknowledge is that... While yes the empire causes lots of destruction during their initial invasion of planets. HOWEVER the Empire also Spends money investing in the people of those planets to not only Rebuild them but often leave them in better positions then they were in before the empires intervention.

[Jandi]

HOWEVER the Empire also Spends money investing in the people of those planets to not only Rebuild them but often leave them in better positions then they were in before the empires intervention.

 

How conveniently you forget to mention that the people on those planets are enslaved, force sensitives either killed or sent to Korriban, non-humans either sent to work camps, massacred or sold as curiosities. Not to mention entire planets at the mercy or Sith and their power games.

 

Imperial conquest only benefits Imperials. Maybe after a few generations the human population can be integrated into the Empire as citizens but short term, they are little more than manual labour.

[AlexDougherty]

Do you have an example of the Sith committing genocide (Besides obviously trying to wipe out the Jedi for revenge) prior to the rule of 2 (Since Darth Krayt in the expanded universe is the only thing I could find, and the obvious destruction of Alderaan in ep 4)?

 

While it's obvious the Sith have killed their fair share of people, I don't think they've ever committed the act as huge as the Jedi trying to wipe out a whole race of people (And almost succeeding). Not saying you're wrong, I just can't find anything about recorded genocide committed by Sith of this timeline.

 

Yes I do, on Nar Shaddaa the republic characters defeat an Imperial General who is running a Genocide program designed to eradicate all aliens, it's one of the Emperor's projects. On Balmorra you track down a Sith who is guilty of wiping out entire species, for no real reason other than whim.

 

Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't redeem an organization of its crime if those effected still remember it. That's just silly to suggest they should just get over it, even in the real world "good guys" don't forget things that heinous and rarely forgive.

 

True, but the individuals who are guilty are long dead, and the current crop (and indeed most generations) are innocent of the crimes. Blaming these Jedi for crimes long past makes no sense, we don't blame the generations of Sith who lived and died innocently in exile (prior to the Sith's return) for crimes committed by their ancestors, so why do the same for the Jedi. An organisation is rarely held accountable for crimes it committed in the distant past, or the Roman Catholic Church would be in the dock for war crimes, let's just focus on who is evil in the moment.

[EzioMessi]

Do you have an example of the Sith committing genocide (Besides obviously trying to wipe out the Jedi for revenge) prior to the rule of 2 (Since Darth Krayt in the expanded universe is the only thing I could find, and the obvious destruction of Alderaan in ep 4)?

 

Want a list of maniacal genocides done by the Empire? Here you go, from this one game alone:

 

1. The Nar Shadaa death camp mentioned earlier

2. Darth Angral: Attempted to blow up Tatooine with the Shock Drum, successfully destroyed (Uphrades? Don't recall te name, but it was a *farming* planet). He killed billions directly, and then billions more who didn't get the food this planet produced.

3. Emperor attempted to destroy (indirectly): Belsavis, Corellia, most of the Empire and Republic (Foundry) all towards his ultimate goal of wiping out the galaxy.

 

EDIT:

Also, remember that maniacal Sith on DK whose orders were to curb the slave revolt? Your *light side* option in this story is to outright kill all the slaves. The Dark Side option is to torture them for a long time with some poison this crazy Sith has.

 

 

Pretty sure there's a ton of examples more.

Edited December 23, 2013 by EzioMessi

[Callaron]

Do you have an example of the Sith committing genocide (Besides obviously trying to wipe out the Jedi for revenge) prior to the rule of 2 (Since Darth Krayt in the expanded universe is the only thing I could find, and the obvious destruction of Alderaan in ep 4)?

 

While it's obvious the Sith have killed their fair share of people, I don't think they've ever committed the act as huge as the Jedi trying to wipe out a whole race of people (And almost succeeding). Not saying you're wrong, I just can't find anything about recorded genocide committed by Sith of this timeline.

 

Another in game example is shown during the Imperial quests on Nar Shaddaa - where you have to stop "The Flame", a Gen'Dai - who's whole species has been the victim of Imperial genocide; so yeah, they definitely do it.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Callaron

[Aeneas_Falco]

The Empire are the villains of TOR.

 

I understand that some people enjoy playing their Empire characters more, or just find the faction more fun, but arguing that they aren't the bad guys is a bit like arguing that the Orcs and Ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings are misunderstood. The Sith are very much the black hats of the Star Wars universe.

[Drox]

Want a list of maniacal genocides done by the Empire? Here you go, from this one game alone:

 

1. The Nar Shadaa death camp mentioned earlier

2. Darth Angral: Attempted to blow up Tatooine with the Shock Drum, successfully destroyed (Uphrades? Don't recall te name, but it was a *farming* planet). He killed billions directly, and then billions more who didn't get the food this planet produced.

3. Emperor attempted to destroy (indirectly): Belsavis, Corellia, most of the Empire and Republic (Foundry) all towards his ultimate goal of wiping out the galaxy.

 

EDIT:

Also, remember that maniacal Sith on DK whose orders were to curb the slave revolt? Your *light side* option in this story is to outright kill all the slaves. The Dark Side option is to torture them for a long time with some poison this crazy Sith has.

 

 

Pretty sure there's a ton of examples more.

 

Well I already noted in one of my other replies, that the empire in the game is "over the top evil for plot purposes". So I'm not surprised that there are instances of genocide in the game. I just couldn't find any examples outside of the game during the time period.

 

True, but the individuals who are guilty are long dead, and the current crop (and indeed most generations) are innocent of the crimes. Blaming these Jedi for crimes long past makes no sense, we don't blame the generations of Sith who lived and died innocently in exile (prior to the Sith's return) for crimes committed by their ancestors, so why do the same for the Jedi. An organisation is rarely held accountable for crimes it committed in the distant past, or the Roman Catholic Church would be in the dock for war crimes, let's just focus on who is evil in the moment.

 

It's true that an organisation is rarely held accountable if the crimes happened a long enough time ago. However if you finally had the power to hold that organisation responsible for its crime, you wouldn't? Even if that crime was to wipe out your planet, culture, and existence? I think the notion of "good vs bad" is as murky in the star wars realm as it is in the real world (When you actually break it down beyond light vs dark actions). Which I'll go back to what I said in my first post, it's like how people view what the US has done. It really depends on your point of view and if the end justifies the means.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Drox

[errant_knight]

I don't think it's as simple as republic--good, empire--bad. Both do good and bad things, both contain good and bad people. While the empire's actions are generally more extreme and result in more suffering, one has to ask, is it worse to do bad things thinking they're right or to do bad things knowing they're wrong?

[Xilizhra]

The Empire's leadership is, overall, more evil than the Republic's, but not all Imperials or even Sith are evil themselves. To me, it seems morally defensible to be a Sith and to fight for their side because you don't want to see the Republic wipe out your civilization, as they not only tried many years ago, but actually try again in-game now.

[Xakthul]

From the viewpoints of all my characters (even the Pubs), the republic is more than a little evil. But I still shameessly shoot ever Imp I see, too.

[Abbyssion]

The Empire are the villains of TOR.

 

I understand that some people enjoy playing their Empire characters more, or just find the faction more fun, but arguing that they aren't the bad guys is a bit like arguing that the Orcs and Ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings are misunderstood. The Sith are very much the black hats of the Star Wars universe.

 

Hey the Orcs just want equal rights! But instead of getting a Martin Luther King they got Sauron

[Xakthul]

Hey the Orcs just want equal rights! But instead of getting a Martin Luther King they got Sauron

 

LOK' TAR OGAR!

 

 

oh, wait.....wrong orcs.