Tatile Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Said by the greatest manipulator in the galaxy. Point: invalid. The devil cites scripture for his own ends. Edited September 13, 2012 by Tatile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellbirdIV Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Are you trying to fault people for wanting to survive the society in which they live? No, that's in fact the point of my statement: You have to judge the Empire as an institution. The Empire is evil. That does not make everyone in it evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) The devil cites scripture for his own ends. This is true, but there are always other passages that prove him wrong. My point being, Palpatine said that in order to manipulate Anakin and turn him against the Jedi. To drive him further down the path. What he said was only slightly true. Jedi seek power to help others, but they will eventually give it all up. Sith will do everything they can to prolong their life and gain more power. Sidious is the prime example of this. He cloned himself so that he could be immortal. Edited September 13, 2012 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatile Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I'd question how cloning oneself makes one immortal, but I don't read Star Wars books. You've agreed with my point, though, that it is best to manipulate people using half truths rather than whole lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynaga Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I see people citing this and that, pointing fingers left and right. So slavery is evil? That is why it was a main part of society for thousands of years. So for thousands of years people all over the globe were evil? Or is the concept of owning a sentient person and treating them like property an idea that has become distasteful to most of civilization over the past 300 years? So the empire doesn't like Xeno life forms, the republic does not like empire. Right not likeing aliens is evil, I forgot. The republic has people that don't like aliens too...oh but its ok because not all of them are like that, wait not all of the empire is like that too? WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS THERE LOGIC??? Or could it be that some people like to project their morals and ethics on others? And that is ok, because the post asked who is evil, which is a completely subjective point of view as evil is in the eye of the beholder. I love you guys, in real life my morals would tell me that the empire is clearly evil. But as I have travled the world and I am an educated individual, I also know that my morals and views are not the only ones anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I'd question how cloning oneself makes one immortal, but I don't read Star Wars books. You've agreed with my point, though, that it is best to manipulate people using half truths rather than whole lies. Well he had the ability to transfer his essence into others. He used lifeless clones because they couldn't resist him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeters Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) So slavery is evil? That is why it was a main part of society for thousands of years. So for thousands of years people all over the globe were evil? Yes. For putting their own personal wealth and position before basic human rights of dozens, hundreds or thousands of others. Don't try and support it on the basis that it was an accepted part of society in previous centuries. That doesn't excuse it. Or is the concept of owning a sentient person and treating them like property an idea that has become distasteful to most of civilization over the past 300 years? For entirely good reason. So the empire doesn't like Xeno life forms, the republic does not like empire. Right not likeing aliens is evil, I forgot. The republic has people that don't like aliens too...oh but its ok because not all of them are like that, wait not all of the empire is like that too? The difference is, the Republic doesn't sanction it on an official level. They don't build their society around the concept of racial inferiority. They don't clap slave collars on anybody who isn't human if they can't otherwise prove their worth, or set up facilities that serve no other purpose than to murder them all for dubious diplomatic gains. The Empire does all of these things. evil is in the eye of the beholder Notsureifseriousface. But as I have travled the world and I am an educated individual Be condescending somewhere else, thank you. Edited September 13, 2012 by Bleeters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynaga Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Be condescending somewhere else, thank you. I would like to appologise that you read that as an attack, as it was not meant to be, it was only meant to clarify that I do have experience. I do not appologise for what I said because I did not say something wrong or with the intent to hurt/ be hurtful. Truth is subjective. As you indicated with your response to my post. "I think, therefor I am." Space Butterfly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatile Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) I see people citing this and that, pointing fingers left and right. So slavery is evil? That is why it was a main part of society for thousands of years. So for thousands of years people all over the globe were evil? Or is the concept of owning a sentient person and treating them like property an idea that has become distasteful to most of civilization over the past 300 years? Slavery is the backbone of the Empire, how any individual treats their own slaves is inconsequential until it becomes a wide practice. We consider slavery to be evil because we also consider all humans (or in this case, humanoid sentients) to be equal. Slavery is actually alive and well in modern day and according to various human rights organisations, it's significantly more prevalent and successful than it was 300 years ago. So the empire doesn't like Xeno life forms, the republic does not like empire. Right not likeing aliens is evil, I forgot. The republic has people that don't like aliens too...oh but its ok because not all of them are like that, wait not all of the empire is like that too? WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS THERE LOGIC??? Speceism (how is that spelt?) is institutionalised in the Empire, in part one could argue that it is how they justify their slavery (that and their social Darwinism). You are at a significant disadvantage in the Empire if you are non-human/non-Pureblood (Chiss are a strange exception to this rule) - as far as I am aware the Republic does not consider different species or their hybrids to be inferior. Or could it be that some people like to project their morals and ethics on others? And that is ok, because the post asked who is evil, which is a completely subjective point of view as evil is in the eye of the beholder. Oh absolutely; the Republic consider the Empire to be evil because they compare them to their own standards of morality. It's whether or not the Imperial citizens consider themselves to be evil that I'm interested in - the Sith I don't care about, for the most part they seem to revel in the idea that they are the embodiment and epitome of sin (thought that might simmer down a bit once they start getting involved in the actual running of things; you can only go through so many troops before you start to realise they're not as disposable as you originally thought.) I love you guys, in real life my morals would tell me that the empire is clearly evil. But as I have travled the world and I am an educated individual, I also know that my morals and views are not the only ones anywhere. Moral relativism is a really tricky thing as it essentially allows heinous acts to be excused as 'a local thing'. Of course morality only becomes universal once everyone agrees on it. I think that really helps to show how good and evil are just human constructs and subject to change. (And yes, I am just really bored at the moment. I don't get to have conversations like this often, it's quite fun.) Edited September 13, 2012 by Tatile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynaga Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (And yes, I am just really bored at the moment. I don't get to have conversations like this often, it's quite fun.) Thank you, now I have a better understanding (and a reminder) of what use speciesm is to them, I forgot for some reason, maybe some of my brains leaked out while I was trying to make sense of the pvp forums. I agree that slavery still happens today, but I was trying to make more of a point that western ideologies have more or less condemned the practice. Though it still seems to be ok that most of society operates under almost slave like conditions, struggling to maintain a job to pay bills and buy items. Not a communist and I'm not narrowing this to America as I am not American. But certain paralells can be drawn to current wage earners and slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatile Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised if the Republic had wide-spread wage slavery, it seems like the sort of equal rights based hypocrisy that could be easily swept under the rug over there. That's one of things people like about the Empire, I think. There might be a knife coming for you, but at least you know it's coming. Republic you get an apple, but you can't tell if it's rotten till you bite it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynaga Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Republic you get an apple, but you can't tell if it's rotten till you bite it This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alricka Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised if the Republic had wide-spread wage slavery, it seems like the sort of equal rights based hypocrisy that could be easily swept under the rug over there. That's one of things people like about the Empire, I think. There might be a knife coming for you, but at least you know it's coming. Republic you get an apple, but you can't tell if it's rotten till you bite it Agreed. Though to be honest, the Republic practiced a very real slavery on Belsavis but since the planet is kept in total secrecy from the society nobody aside from a few political and military high-ups knows about it. I think this is the main difference between the two. Yes, the Empire is bigoted, agressive and unceremonious. Yes, the Sith are generally a band of self-serving murderers and psychopats on a power trip. But, unpleasant as this is, what you see is what you get. The Republic, on the other hand, preaches equality, freedoms and the care for the well-being of its citizens but behind the scenes they would cut deals with criminals (on both a small scale like a senator taking dirty money and on a large scale through the Privateer Project which is basically employing pirates to do your dirty work), keep imprisoned beings whose only crime was to be born descendants of criminals on a prison planet, commit amoral experiments and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNegotiator Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 This. You crack me up. You do know that slavery is illegal (meaning abolished) in every country in the civilized world right? What part about that don't you understand? So you think that because it was once allowed makes it "OK"? So much for progress eh? Honestly I think most people who come on these forums and go on about how the empire isn't really evil never watched the original trilogy and just got off the wow boat (were never star wars fans in the first place). I mean it's all so ridiculous, it's like this huge attempt at rationalization on an epic scale just because you are attached to your empire character and refuse to acknowledge game lore. Heck if you don't believe me just go play an agent, by the end of the story the chief of imperial intelligence gives you a speech about evil the empire is. Rationalize that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izutah Posted September 15, 2012 Author Share Posted September 15, 2012 You crack me up. You do know that slavery is illegal (meaning abolished) in every country in the civilized world right? What part about that don't you understand? So you think that because it was once allowed makes it "OK"? So much for progress eh? Honestly I think most people who come on these forums and go on about how the empire isn't really evil never watched the original trilogy and just got off the wow boat (were never star wars fans in the first place). I mean it's all so ridiculous, it's like this huge attempt at rationalization on an epic scale just because you are attached to your empire character and refuse to acknowledge game lore. Heck if you don't believe me just go play an agent, by the end of the story the chief of imperial intelligence gives you a speech about evil the empire is. Rationalize that! It wasnt ever the case of what the writer or director of the orgininal films portrayed who is good and who is bad. I started this thread wanting peoples own personal views and opinions. Theres no right or wrong awnser as everyone views there chracacters and allegience differntly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabulousDoctor Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Having played a Trooper, a Sith Warrior, and beginning an Agent, I can safely say that the Empire is not 'evil'. Much like Lt. Dorne says though, the fact that it's a society where a Sith can order any sort of cruelty, or enact such cruelties, on anyone they wish to, defying the laws of the military/society makes it seem evil. The Imperial Military, at least as far as I've seen, is no more terrible than the Republic Military as a Trooper sees, instead it's that they're run more by the Sith who are 'Deathstab Souleater' level morality, even above their own laws. Oh, you know those laws about how Republic PoWs must be treated? Well that Sith just ordered you to break them by shooting them in the head instead. So you did so, even though it's breaking the laws, because a Sith told you to! If the Empire didn't have its Sith Worship where every Sith was above every military person besides a Moff you'd likely see it being a lot less 'evil'. If only the Council + the Emperor were above the Moffs in rank, and other Sith had equivalent ranks to Imperial personnel, then the laws would be followed more often, preventing the stupidity that is Imperial 'morality'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatile Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 You crack me up. You do know that slavery is illegal (meaning abolished) in every country in the civilized world right? What part about that don't you understand? So you think that because it was once allowed makes it "OK"? So much for progress eh? I don't believe anyone here has said that they believe slavery is just, good or in any way a positive thing. The treatment of slaves both in real life and in Star Wars is abhorrent (I think moreso in real life simply because of the abolition of slavery; the very fact that you are taking away an individual's rights in this day and age is disgusting). I'm more interested in looking at the Empire as a self-perpetuating system separate from the citizens who inhabit it - it's hard to grasp how a concept can be controlling of the people who act under it, but it's still possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellbirdIV Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 The Imperial Military, at least as far as I've seen, is no more terrible than the Republic Military as a Trooper sees, instead it's that they're run more by the Sith who are 'Deathstab Souleater' level morality, even above their own laws. Oh, you know those laws about how Republic PoWs must be treated? Well that Sith just ordered you to break them by shooting them in the head instead. Actually the Imperial Military has a standing order to execute non-essential prisoners, as seen in the Empire-side flashpoint Boarding Party where the Marine squad leader asks if you want the prisoners spared or to 'begin executions' (implying that the latter is the norm) even though they are unarmed and surrendering. Imperial Military and Intelligence personnel are also not exactly up to snuff in how they treat people during the occupation of Balmorra (Slave labour, torture and incarceration without trial, mass executions to spite the Republic), the attacks on Taris, Hoth (Deliberate genocide) and Voss (They put a nuke under Voss-Ka), and that's just the tip of a very, very large iceberg. Playing as a Trooper, General Garza gives you very Dark-side orders at certain points of the story. The difference between that, and when the same thing happens in the Imperial Agent story, is that General Garza's orders are actually illegal and you can call her out on that, whereas when Keeper tells you to kill some innocents for the greater good, you're actually committing treason by taking the Light side options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Viron Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 The uhh, the Empire isn't quite the stereotypical image of "good" with all of the Cathar Genoicide, Xenophobia, and killing within ranks. Plus they all have British accents, and everybody knows that contributes to a faction's Evil factor. The Jedi and Republic are as equally zealous about the destruction of the Empire and lets not forget that the republic tried to ethnically cleanse the sith Purebloods before the Emperor was born. But really there are no good or bad guys as good and evil are formed from a flawed perspective. This is especially relevant in this game unlike the movies where there is only one perspective and it is easy to call that perspective evil (I'm sure all those technicians and soldiers on the Death Star were all kitten stranglers and orphan rapists). People who argue for a clear definition of good and evil just like lazy story telling where they don't want to relate to the people the protagonists are fighting against. You don't feel bad in Lord of the Rings when **** loads of orcs are killed because they are portrayed as evil in every appearance. Same in the movies with the storm troopers, they only appear to shoot at (and miss) the heroes. The one time they are portrayed differently is in New Hope when they are just standing around looking for droids in the heat. tl;dr moral ambiguity exists everywhere beyond the two-dimensional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNegotiator Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 It wasnt ever the case of what the writer or director of the orgininal films portrayed who is good and who is bad. I started this thread wanting peoples own personal views and opinions. Theres no right or wrong awnser as everyone views there chracacters and allegience differntly. You're not serious are you? Do you even know who George Lucas is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Viron Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 You're not serious are you? Do you even know who George Lucas is? The guy who made the movies and now sits with a stamp and approves what is canon and what is slightly less canon. He is also known as a terrible writer and director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 The guy who made the movies and now sits with a stamp and approves what is canon and what is slightly less canon. He is also known as a terrible writer and director. I wouldn't say he's terrible. I've liked all of his movies I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNegotiator Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 The guy who made the movies and now sits with a stamp and approves what is canon and what is slightly less canon. He is also known as a terrible writer and director. Lol yeah that Indiana Jones franchise was so poorly done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmthethird Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 You're not serious are you? Do you even know who George Lucas is? yes it is very laughable, how much some ppl want to take the "star wars" out of this "star wars" game. its this simple, in star wars, the empire is the bad guys. this is not WOW where the horde are simply mis-understood, this is not real world history where there is two sides to every story, this is star wars, in which there is - "an epic battle between good and evil" in star wars the galaxy is black and white. in cowboy films the bad guys wear black hats the good wear white, in car chases the bad guys drive black cars the good white. in star wars the bad guys use the blackside, ok so they called it the darkside, but you get the idea play your character how you want, have a darkside jedi knight, or a light side sith warrior, but don't use that as an example of how the repubic or empire are good or bad. their is alrady a real canon story for each class (i believe on wokkie, i haven't checked it out i want to finish all class story's before i do ) i'm willing to bet a pretty penny that the sith warrors canon version of his/her story is one of an evil BAMF and not one of "but my sith warrior sells cookies for girl guides and visits old ppl in retirement homes " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) I don't get how this is even a question... while in real life "good" and "bad/evil" are abstracts which are based on opinions and perception are up for debate in most works of fiction they are rather clear cut... SW especially Empire/Sith = bad Republic/Jedi = good it's clearly explained and conveyed in every single piece of SW lore... in fact the point is hammered in over and over Edited September 16, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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