Skill based PvP

[ingenuityfails]

With GW2 coming out, servers are losing people. Some of them, Guild Wars fans. Some of them, just trying out the new flavour of the month. But on my main server, a lot of them are people who are sick of gear-based PvP.

 

I'm not saying it's a horrible thing, or that it doesn't have it's virtues when it comes to keeping people interested. But in several guilds across a few servers I've seen topics posted about organising PvP matches where all the participants are wearing nothing but a set of recruit gear, and SO MANY people have immediately jumped on the idea, not only people who're currently PvPing, but also people who have already lost interest in it entirely.

 

Would it really be that hard for Bioware to create a seperate PvP queue on top of the 2 we already have? Warzones, Ranked Warzones, and a separate gametype where everyone's gear is set to no stat gain, recruit level gear, or War Hero level gear, whatever. Still earn comms from it, so you're getting something out of it, maybe even have a ranked version of it too. But essentially something that puts everyone on equal footing, and brings it back to just your spec and your skill.

 

As implied, it'd potentially bring back a lot of people who're leaving for GW2, grab the attention of people who're sick of getting face-rolled by groups in full War Hero, and do all that without ruining the PvP systems already in place.

[richardya]

What are you talking about?

 

No one should be in Recruit gear. If you PvP you should start out when dinging 50 with a few pieces of BM and 3500 in Ranked in the bank. It's one freaking week to get mostly BM'ed up and some WH. Why do people always complain about one week where you are outmatched. You are much more severely outmatched the entire time you are 10-40.

[Black-Cell]

What are you talking about?

 

No one should be in Recruit gear. If you PvP you should start out when dinging 50 with a few pieces of BM and 3500 in Ranked in the bank. It's one freaking week to get mostly BM'ed up and some WH. Why do people always complain about one week where you are outmatched. You are much more severely outmatched the entire time you are 10-40.

 

I'm gonna have to second this. I have several 50s and each time I hit 50 I had the choice of a BM piece, and war hero piece. Sure, expect several tough matches but it shouldn't take that long to earn gear.

 

(speaking to original poster now) I know you talk about skill based, I've seen recruit level folks dish out some decent damage and heals. I've seen recruit level guardian and assassin tanks just roll right over us in huttball like nothing. I'm full war hero vanguard dps, that alone didn't stop them.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Black-Cell
Typo

[ingenuityfails]

No one should be in Recruit gear. If you PvP you should start out when dinging 50 with a few pieces of BM and 3500 in Ranked in the bank.

If you're a hardcore PvP fan. A lot of people y'know, follow the class story, kill things other than other characters.

 

 

It's one freaking week to get mostly BM'ed up and some WH. Why do people always complain about one week where you are outmatched.

1) This isn't a complaint, it's on observation. If you're that hung up on having a gear advantage, under this system, you'd still be able to have it by continuing to play the Warzones you're already doing. Unless your issue is with not getting the chance to walk all over the people who are suffering through that 'one week' any more.

2) Not everyone plays SWtOR that much. This is an appeal for everyone who plays, not just people on PvP servers, and not just people who have hours to spare every night. If you've just started on a server with multiple well established guilds who enjoy PvP, you can hit 50 with, lets say, the basic 2000 wz comms, buy 1 BM item, end up in pick-up-groups fighting teams all in team speak servers, get say 3-4 medals a game, and be rewarded with a marvellous 60 comms for 10-15 minutes of effort, so maybe 300 comms an hour. Considering some people have jobs, lives, other **** to do, it can be months before you get that War Hero and be on equal footing with everyone else. This gives those people a viable option, where if they have the skill they can earn their gear faster, and if they don't they'll still get rolled, because a lot of already established players will prefer being able to say "I owned you and gear had nothing to do with it" and therefore join in on this gametype.

 

Regardless, the point is that only having gear-based PvP cuts down the pool of potentially interested players. Arguably, cuts out the real PvPers, who want to be overcoming other players skill, not their gear.

 

 

You are much more severely outmatched the entire time you are 10-40.

I both agree and disagree with point of this. In warzones, stat-wise the difference between someone in Recruit and someone in War Hero is larger than between a lvl 11 and a lvl 49 in sub 50. But the difference in having those skills available does give you a massive advantage. It would be cool if that could be dealt with too, but this - I image - would be a much easier issue to address for the developers.

Edited August 30, 2012 by ingenuityfails

[Kilikaa]

I have laid out a idea that would eliminate expertise, make the pvp more skill based and even eliminate the need for a pve/pvp gear separation. Unfirtunately nobody bothered to discuss the idea. So I will lay it out once again here.

 

Why do we need expertise? Most common response I have read is that "we need to keep raiders from coming in and wtfowning people.". This is a result of bad design by devs because they think a gear grind for both types of content is needed and wanted. It's not needed and at lot of people don't want it. Why can't the gear be equal for both types of content? Why do we HAVE to grind out two sets of gear if we want to pve and pvp? We should not have to.

 

First, you take the gear sets in each tier and equalize the stats. Recruit is equal to Columni, Battlemaster equal to Rakata and War Hero equal to BlackHole/Campaign. Now you take each set that currently has a set bonus and give each one a differant bonus. Add in the belt or bracers to create a six piece bonus. Then remove expertise from the game entirely.

 

Here is what will happen. People will now be able to grind out a single set of top tier gear for any content they wish t play. The six piece bonus allows them to mix and match bonuses. You could get the two piece bonus from BM/Camp/WH if you desire. Or perhaps the 4/2 WH/Camp combo, of even 3/3. people can also continue to obtain the gear through their favorite activity, be it Operations/Flash Points or Warzones.

 

NOW comes the reason for removing expertise from pvp sets and the game...THERE IS NO REASON TO FEAR THE RAIDERS! With the gear stats equal raid gear will not be better in pvp and vice versa. The stats can vary a little. One pve set has more crit than the pvp equal while that pvp set may have more power, or defense rating. This eliminates the reliance on expertise, puts the focus on skill and cuts back on the rediculously high damage players do to each other. Do we really need bonuses in pvp? No, we do not.

 

Granted, this means the devs will actually have to rebalance the classes the hard way, but they deserve it. It will also mean a total revamp of the pvp system. I think they could hire a REAl pvp team to build it while they keep the current system in place until the new one is ready. But I do believe this will make pvp more fun, eliminate the need for two differant sets of gear for pve/pvp content and put the focus on skill in pvp where it should be, not on how high a stupid stat is.

 

I hope this idea will be discussed and not be ignored or start a flame war. Lets have a civil discussion and see if we can't refine this idea.

[Blasphemerr]

SWTOR needs expertise because there is otherwise no reward system; A game without progression ... is mario kart; you wouldn't pay a subscription for that. And before you cite the game going F2P ... PVP isn't. Gear is by far the best reward system you can have in an MMO and it's nearly impossible to replace for the same amount of production. Game developers aren't repeating the same "mistakes" ... they're repeating the same success. PVP gear gets a lot of complaints, but it keeps way more people grinding it out.

[UGLYMRJ]

This may be bias since I enjoy gear grinds and working towards not only having an edge over many with skill... but with gear rewards that I've earned. I like to feel as if I've earned something for the time I've put in.

 

Anyways... my point. I think that people in GW2 will end up in one of two places with the game.

 

1. Not only will the no gear tier aspect not matter because some people really just suck at PvP, and these are usually the same people that don't gear up appropriately. So they'll STILL have people on their team who contribute nothing and play a big part in their losing no matter what game they're on.

 

2. And this is only because I have not tried the game but only seen footage. If they don't have those really bad players on their team that still cause them to lose as I said above. Then the PvP is probably VERY simple.... and the novelty of something new will wear off quickly.

Edited August 30, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[oredith]

chipotle employee 1 :

hey, in-and-out just opened up across the way, and we're losing some customers to them.

you know what we should do? stop selling mexican food, and copy in-and-out, but not be as good as them, because our setup wasn't built for burgers and fries.

 

chipotle employee 2 :

that's brilliant, i'm sure that'll be a perfect way to get all those in-and-out burger people here, as well as retain the people who are fans of our mexican food, even though we won't be serving that anymore!

 

BRILLIANT!

[UGLYMRJ]

chipotle employee 1 :

hey, in-and-out just opened up across the way, and we're losing some customers to them.

you know what we should do? stop selling mexican food, and copy in-and-out, but not be as good as them, because our setup wasn't built for burgers and fries.

 

chipotle employee 2 :

that's brilliant, i'm sure that'll be a perfect way to get all those in-and-out burger people here, as well as retain the people who are fans of our mexican food, even though we won't be serving that anymore!

 

BRILLIANT!

 

I LOL'd. Well put.

[Crawelc]

chipotle employee 1 :

hey, in-and-out just opened up across the way, and we're losing some customers to them.

you know what we should do? stop selling mexican food, and copy in-and-out, but not be as good as them, because our setup wasn't built for burgers and fries.

 

chipotle employee 2 :

that's brilliant, i'm sure that'll be a perfect way to get all those in-and-out burger people here, as well as retain the people who are fans of our mexican food, even though we won't be serving that anymore!

 

BRILLIANT!

 

QFT well done sir!

[ingenuityfails]

chipotle employee 1 :

hey, in-and-out just opened up across the way, and we're losing some customers to them.

you know what we should do? stop selling mexican food, and copy in-and-out, but not be as good as them, because our setup wasn't built for burgers and fries.

 

chipotle employee 2 :

that's brilliant, i'm sure that'll be a perfect way to get all those in-and-out burger people here, as well as retain the people who are fans of our mexican food, even though we won't be serving that anymore!

 

BRILLIANT!

 

-and do all that without ruining the PvP systems already in place.

TL;DR? Dipper.

 

I predict the next troll is going to say something along the lines of "Why would you suffer through fighting people on uneven footing if you don't have to? It would ruin the current system."

Answer: Because people enjoy seeing how their gear stacks. Unless you're an idiot rolling with stock War Hero, most people aren't geared the same. If the proposed system was implemented, I wouldn't stop doing regular Warzones, I like my WH. But wouldn't it be nice to, as aforementioned, be able to faceroll someone and say "Well dude, equal footing no matter what way you look at it. Guess I'm better than you at this."

Edited August 30, 2012 by ingenuityfails

[oredith]

TL;DR? Dipper.

apparently you failed to grasp the underlying message.

 

SWTOR is built around a gear progression, where gear makes a difference in pvp.

GW2 is built around a different system, where gear makes no difference in pvp.

 

tailoring SWTOR to a GW2 style would not work, because the game's engine was not made for it. even the bolster system is horribly conceived (see lvl 49 twinks).

 

trying to fit a "skill based pvp" into ToR, is every bit like Chipotle changing their operation to sell burgers and fries, in an attempt to draw crowd from In and Out.

[DarthOvertone]

With GW2 coming out, servers are losing people. Some of them, Guild Wars fans. Some of them, just trying out the new flavour of the month. But on my main server, a lot of them are people who are sick of gear-based PvP.

 

But are they? Really...

 

Played GW1 and I'm glad to see GW2 getting some love from players. I really hope it does well and I plan on playing it in a couple months when the dust settles over its launch. Peeps are going to love GW2 because it's a PvP game made for PvPers. ArenaNet developed the game on that basis and will continue to improve it in that regard.

 

However, I think it's a bit presumptive to believe that peeps will love GW2 because they are tired of gear-based PvP and only want a game based on skill. Here's why: Most players really aren't that skilled. Now they may be able to run around in some good OPvP WvW action, where skill doesn't matter so much, and get over at times mixed up in the zerg. I don't doubt that. But GW2 being a more skill-based game won't be the defining factor for why most will enjoy it.

 

We all play games to feel strong and powerful. These avatars we create feed our egos and chub our epeens. People don't like gear races because it makes them feel weak when they aren't in the lead. The same thing will happen with skill. GW2 will expose the non-skilled, just like gear-based PvP exposes the non-geared.

 

So I'm really interested to see if all of these players clamoring for more skill-based PvP stick with it once it becomes clear they aren't really that skilled after all. Time will tell.

[ingenuityfails]

Then let me ask you, is a fight between 2 toon's in Recruit gear more 'equal' than Recruit vs. War Hero?

Answer is obvious. Following that conclusion;

A fight between 2 teams all in Recruit, is therefore more equal than a fight between 2 teams with varying levels of gear.

Also, that kind of match would be easily reproducible in game if the players were willing. And as I mentioned in the first post, people are willing.

 

Therefore, an alternate type of war zone, that simply sets all of the participants stats to what they would be if they were wearing their preffered set of Recruit gear, would say, put everyone on equal footing. Creating the option, I repeat, option, for skill based warzones, without breaking the current system.

[UGLYMRJ]

Creating the option, I repeat, option, for skill based warzones, without breaking the current system.

 

You DO realize that you have an option too... right?

 

Maybe this isn't the game for you. You ARE entitled to choose another game.... you are NOT entitled to changing this one.

[oredith]

So I'm really interested to see if all of these players clamoring for more skill-based PvP stick with it once it becomes clear they aren't really that skilled after all. Time will tell.

these words, they read and sound like english, but I am unable to comprehend them. what are you saying??

 

[ingenuityfails]

Well thank **** that's up to Bioware and not you.

 

We're already planning all-recruit matches on my server, I just thought putting it forth as an idea would be a good thing, because like I said, even people who'd lost interest in PvP are keen to give it a try. Obviously, haters gonna hate. Good luck with that.

Edited August 30, 2012 by ingenuityfails

[oredith]

Well thank **** that's up to Bioware and not you.

 

We're already planning all-recruit matches on my server, I just thought putting it forth as an idea would be a good thing, because of all of the expressed interest. Good lord! Maybe they're already thinking about doing it, and you'll be the ones complaining about it in 6 months. Obviously, haters gonna hate. Guess we'll see.

we have naked pvp night on my server too, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to have a pvp queue for "naked pvp".. -_-

 

yay legacy boxing..

 

and rocket punch..

Edited August 30, 2012 by oredith

[Leiralei]

Raw Recruit-vs-recruit fights? Incorporating that into my tournament idea!

 

Might just make recruit gear not a waste of creds.

 

EDIT:

 

If it becomes apparent that some people aren't as skilled as they think they are, they have the choice to get better or ****. Gear? It gives baddies an excuse to stay bad.

 

I learned that in Rift when I stopped dying in one hit after they adjusted gear.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Leiralei

[RobNightfall]

What are you talking about?

 

No one should be in Recruit gear. If you PvP you should start out when dinging 50 with a few pieces of BM and 3500 in Ranked in the bank. It's one freaking week to get mostly BM'ed up and some WH. Why do people always complain about one week where you are outmatched. You are much more severely outmatched the entire time you are 10-40.

 

You missed the point. He's stating that people are DELIBERATELY only wearing recruit gear so that the PvP requires more skill and is more fun. It's not about how easy or hard the grind is. The OP is pointing out that part of why a lot of PvPers are leaving is that the PvP here is much more about gear and much less about skill.

[cashogy]

honestly, wait a month or two. gear doesnt matter right now in gw2 b/c nobody has it. but when you have fully geared players facing lowbies just wanting to pvp, it will be a massacre. for the same exact reason that 50s were given their own bracket in wzs here.

[kweassa]

You missed the point. He's stating that people are DELIBERATELY only wearing recruit gear so that the PvP requires more skill and is more fun. It's not about how easy or hard the grind is. The OP is pointing out that part of why a lot of PvPers are leaving is that the PvP here is much more about gear and much less about skill.

 

...and of course, the OP is simply wrong.

He naturally assumes the loss of population is due to PvPers leaving.

[Icestar]

...and of course, the OP is simply wrong.

He naturally assumes the loss of population is due to PvPers leaving.

 

The OP is not wrong, players leaving is basicly about endgame content. I can take my friends for example:

 

All got atleast one level 50. They all left because they did not like what this game has to offer at level 50. Most of them left before 1.2 though and I have tried to get them back but they are not interested.

 

Endgame PvP for the serious player that wants to match skill against skill has to look elsewehere then this game. We all know that this game offers no skill challenge since gear matters to much hence people that wants a equal skill challenge leave.

 

We can all pretend that warzones are equal and a augmented warhero player is equally matched against a battlemaster or recruitgeared player but to say so is foolish.

 

Players leave, the OP is right and there is nothing we as players can do about it then watch it happen.

 

I'm not saying it's a horrible thing, or that it doesn't have it's virtues when it comes to keeping people interested. But in several guilds across a few servers I've seen topics posted about organising PvP matches where all the participants are wearing nothing but a set of recruit gear, and SO MANY people have immediately jumped on the idea, not only people who're currently PvPing, but also people who have already lost interest in it entirely.

 

This is a great idea, those guilds should start writing who they are because IF that works and teams actually gets matched against eachother with pure skill that is respect!

Edited August 31, 2012 by Icestar

[TheronFett]

SWTOR needs expertise because there is otherwise no reward system; A game without progression ... is mario kart; you wouldn't pay a subscription for that.

 

This is the most tired argument in favor of gear-based PvP. It's also the most invalid.

 

TRUE PvPers have a reward system. It's called winning. Most players do not want gear-based PvP, especially with a gap as wide as this game currently has. People PvP to test their skill against other players, not to grind out gear sets. That's what PvEers do. PvP gear should be about looks and bragging rights, not used as a crutch by people who can play 50+ hours a week.

[Draekos]

This makes me want to create a guild called recruit and make it a point to play in the gear as a group whenever possible.