EA COO (Peter Moore) maintains confidence in BioWare

[Cavell]

lol...who cares about EA, since I'd think they're more the reason behind releasing the game too soon....pushing more for the F2P business model, etc. I'd be more interested in BW's confidence in EA than the other way around.

 

People really need to stop thinking of Bioware and EA as separate entities. They are not. EA has also replaced just about every senior manager at Bioware Austin - including one of the founders of Bioware - with their own hires. To pretend that pre-EA Bioware has anything to do with the game at this point is ludicrous.

[AshenK]

The fact is EA has shown their true colors over the last month.

 

All this game got was a quick little week long item hunt event that if you go read Massively will show how bad it was. They barely talk on the forums, have you ever seen a Dev in game? They are making all kinds of bets on their F2P system and know what? F2P can fail, go look at AoC and how well it's done as a F2P game. The player base along with the sub base is dropping and mark my words servers even ones they made people move to with be ghost towns next week.

[Erasimus]

....

Sorry, but that's not real MMO PvP, that's faux PvP for people who only know how to PvP the WoW way (which is also faux PvP....

 

It is appropriate to automatically dismiss the comments of anyone that asserts their opinion is fact with no substantiation.

 

PvP is player against player. You may like or dislike specific implementations, but that is a personal feeling. While most of the PvP'ers I know, quite a few actually, left this game for many reasons. A lot of them went back to WoW PvP, or competitieve FPS games. Many will try GW2, but some that have already are complaining. My son for example still plays WoW PvP (multi-season glad) and, as a member of old guys gaming, plays competitive BF3. He'll also try GW2 but hasn't been overly impressed with the Betas.

 

They could have copied WoW a bit more faithfully on the creation of PvP realms. There is far too little contact between factions in SWTOR. On a WoW PvP server it is very challenging just to level a character and every raid is an opportunity for open war at the entrance. There is a reason that historically 90% or more of the Top Guilds on WoW progress are all on PvP servers.

 

SWTOR could benefit by some of the PvP ideas from WoW. The "For the Alliance" and "For the Horde" achievement for kill the Bosses in major Alliance or Horde cities not only netted you a cool mount, but were some of the most fun PvP encounters I can remember.

[ChazDoit]

To be fair I think the most popular game right now, League of Legends would just be a niche moba if it wasn't free to play

 

Free-to-Play

A rewarding Recruit-A-Friend system

Beign able to unlock champions without having to pay

 

Both LoL and HoN are good games, but Riot knew how to sell their game a thousand times better, so the bussines model you choose can be the success of the failure of your game

Edited August 22, 2012 by ChazDoit

[HarleysRule]

The fact is EA has shown their true colors over the last month.

 

All this game got was a quick little week long item hunt event that if you go read Massively will show how bad it was. They barely talk on the forums, have you ever seen a Dev in game? They are making all kinds of bets on their F2P system and know what? F2P can fail, go look at AoC and how well it's done as a F2P game. The player base along with the sub base is dropping and mark my words servers even ones they made people move to with be ghost towns next week.

 

TOR's F2P will have similar results. AoC's F2P model is terrible. TOR's model looks too much like AoC, unfortunately.

[Talon_strikes]

People really need to stop thinking of Bioware and EA as separate entities. They are not. EA has also replaced just about every senior manager at Bioware Austin - including one of the founders of Bioware - with their own hires. To pretend that pre-EA Bioware has anything to do with the game at this point is ludicrous.

Actually, in a Massively Joystiq article it stated he only stepped down as General Manager. He's still staying, but that doesn't excuse what EA has done to the BioWare team.

Edited August 22, 2012 by HomicidalWhales

[Urael]

Again with the "real" pvp.

 

A Real PvP game is

- FAPvP 24/7/365

- No safe zones (but plenty of places to hide and or abush from )

- Death penalties (to include experience loss and deleveling)

- Corpse looting

- Gear maintenance (unlike no damage to gear in some games in PvP)

- Permadeath ( in some cases)

 

I am sure I am missing a few other features.

 

The point is most PvPers today couldn't handle 'old school' PvP because it would hurt their feelings and self esteem. Real PvP is a Hobsian Nightmare on PCP, unlike the Care Bear version of WoW, SWTOR, etc.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Urael

[Urael]

It is appropriate to automatically dismiss the comments of anyone that asserts their opinion is fact with no substantiation.

 

PvP is player against player. You may like or dislike specific implementations, but that is a personal feeling. While most of the PvP'ers I know, quite a few actually, left this game for many reasons. A lot of them went back to WoW PvP, or competitieve FPS games. Many will try GW2, but some that have already are complaining. My son for example still plays WoW PvP (multi-season glad) and, as a member of old guys gaming, plays competitive BF3. He'll also try GW2 but hasn't been overly impressed with the Betas.

 

They could have copied WoW a bit more faithfully on the creation of PvP realms. There is far too little contact between factions in SWTOR. On a WoW PvP server it is very challenging just to level a character and every raid is an opportunity for open war at the entrance. There is a reason that historically 90% or more of the Top Guilds on WoW progress are all on PvP servers.

 

SWTOR could benefit by some of the PvP ideas from WoW. The "For the Alliance" and "For the Horde" achievement for kill the Bosses in major Alliance or Horde cities not only netted you a cool mount, but were some of the most fun PvP encounters I can remember.

 

This is all care bear PvP. There are no real consequences in SWTOR, WoW, or any of the "new" PvPs. See my post above for a description of "old school" PvP.

[AgentMountaineer]

People really need to stop thinking of Bioware and EA as separate entities. They are not. EA has also replaced just about every senior manager at Bioware Austin - including one of the founders of Bioware - with their own hires. To pretend that pre-EA Bioware has anything to do with the game at this point is ludicrous.

 

I suppose I haven't been paying enough attention to the changes in management. If that's the case, then they are one and the same and it's a travesty because BW was awesome and i have never liked EA. *sighs* I know my attention span on this game is waning, which is such a travesty because I was soooo excited when I found out about this game. Love the Star Wars universe and the change from an over saturation of the market with fantasy MMOs. Love the story lines and am pretty happy with the overall game.

 

But there are things that fester and things about the game that worry me. The upcoming transition to F2P and the quality of players it will attract. I love PvP, but there are too many players that make me want to throat punch them when they don't contribute to actually winning matches. I also hate how sometimes warzones feels like nothing more than World of Stunlock.

 

I plan on keeping my sub when F2P drops, but not if I have to pay for single-world content like might happen with Makeb. I am all for paying $40 for an actual 'expansion' of the game that includes more than a single planet, a couple space missions and a new WZ or two.

 

I also wonder if the game will deliver on the 'six week content updates' stream they have proposed since they did such a wonderful job of 'rolling out new material month after month (/end sarcasm).'

 

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how much confidence EA/BW has, it's about the confidence of the consumer being happy with what they're paying for that will ultimately determine the success of this game, and right now this ship needs a hell of a course correction and I'm extremely skeptical that the transition to F2P is the solution we are looking for.

[Dokar]

A Real PvP game is

- FAPvP 24/7/365

- No safe zones (but plenty of places to hide and or abush from )

- Death penalties (to include experience loss and deleveling)

- Corpse looting

- Gear maintenance (unlike no damage to gear in some games in PvP)

- Permadeath ( in some cases)

 

I am sure I am missing a few other features.

 

The point is most PvPers today couldn't handle 'old school' PvP because it would hurt their feelings and self esteem. Real PvP is a Hobsian Nightmare on PCP, unlike the Care Bear version of WoW, SWTOR, etc.

 

So because you can't ruin someones day and cost them hours of thier time spent in the game it isn't real PVP?

Edited August 22, 2012 by Dokar

[Jenzali]

Trying to twist the definition of "PvP" is absurd to say the least.

 

PvP means Player versus Player. If you are fighting against another player at any time, anywhere, or for any reason, it is PvP.

 

No one cares that you used to play a free-for-all MMO that had permadeath. There's a reason those aren't around anymore because no one likes them except the most hardcore of the hardcore. You aren't superior to us just because you used to play a game with death penalties.

 

I and a great deal many others happen to enjoy the PvP in this game, limited and flawed though it may be. It would be downright idiotic to alienate that portion of the player base because it is the aspect of the game that feels (to me) to be the most like what Star Wars really is. Not 8 or 16 players beating on a giant creature in a lava cave that may have been from World of Warcraft.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Jenzali

[HarleysRule]

PvP is too safe today because many who engage in it and whine about how it used to be couldn't handle it. It wasn't a simple matter of not liking it. They weren't skilled enough to play the entire PvP game. It is not just about Pixels and PvP Combat. It is about the full "game' of warfare were you had to make and break alliances and actually use tactics to survive. When you died it cost you in time, and treasure. If you got ganked over and over you could get deleveled back to a lowbie. People today couldn't handle it. That is the context. I think PvP is pretty much a joke in todays games. It is an inconvenience and an anoyance. One of the reasons people gank so much today is that there are no consiquences. There are no more KoS lists.

 

In short its become a sport.

 

So...the red part isn't inconvenient or annoying, but playing today's totally optional PvP is? What?

 

Ever play EVE? Ganking in that game is an art form, and there are plenty of consequences. Still plenty of ganking going on in that game, even with all the alliances and politics.

Edited August 22, 2012 by HarleysRule

[Urael]

So...the red part isn't inconvenient or annoying, but playing today's totally optional PvP is? What?

 

Ever play EVE? Ganking in that game is an art form, and there are plenty of consequences. Still plenty of ganking going on in that game, even with all the alliances and politics.

 

In EVE that is part of the game and expected because it follows the old model. It's a free for all. SWTOR and WoW do not follow this model. It is watered down.

 

In reference to say PvP servers here or in WoW, it is an inconvenience on the way to leveling up a charcter. It's something that could potentially get in your way as you level up. You will level up and not go backwards. It's just a little bit of time.

 

I think that people that rally behind PvP is one player against another don't have the full picture of what PvP used to be and can be becasue they are so used to the watered down PvP of WoW ( and games like WoW) and come to expect that model is the only model for PvP. Many of the "hardcore" PvPers (not all) couldn't handle it (or they would be playing games that had it like EVE (and similar games)) and not epeening in what amounts to a sporting event.

[EStarfall]

In EVE that is part of the game and expected because it follows the old model. It's a free for all. SWTOR and WoW do not follow this model. It is watered down.

 

In reference to say PvP servers here or in WoW, it is an inconvenience on the way to leveling up a charcter. It's something that could potentially get in your way as you level up. You will level up and not go backwards. It's just a little bit of time.

 

I think that people that rally behind PvP is one player against another don't have the full picture of what PvP used to be and can be becasue they are so used to the watered down PvP of WoW ( and games like WoW) and come to expect that model is the only model for PvP. Many of the "hardcore" PvPers (not all) couldn't handle it (or they would be playing games that had it like EVE (and similar games)) and not epeening in what amounts to a sporting event.

 

Don't you see that you are epeening over what you consider that real pvp is vs. what you call watered down pvp? Doesn't have anything to do with "people can't handle it" it has more to do with "that is a non-sensical pvp model". What you are doing amounts to an old man saying, "in my day soda pop cost a nickel, and they punched you in the mouth when you bought one, and you told them thank you as you walked out the door". Ok old man, relax, we get it. Pvp is not as cool as the game you played 10 years ago.

[Ashivauto]

First off before I say anything, so all the trolls/fanbois/haters dont try and claim I hate this game or whatever.... I am absolutely a fan of the game and Bioware, as well a huge mmo fan playing games such as swg(from beta to close), aion, eq, lotro, mol, aoc, coh, rift, and swtor(from beta/early access to present)... I am also a h8uge fan of SW and have been since I was a kid... that being said:

 

Im so tired of when someone mentions the game lacks owpvp and sandbox elements, all the fanbois come out and say that "pvp is a minor part of the game",or "did you expect swG 2.0".... SWG was not the only sandbox game nor was it the only game with pvp.... SWTOR lacks owpvp and sandbox elements which is one of the reasons it cant hold peoples attention, mine included.... An mmo without these 2 elements is nothing more than a single player game with co-op options.... Well i can pay $50 for an xbox game and play games like that all day....

 

I believe when people have unsubscribed and stated that they didnt like the sub model, they really were saying i wouldnt pay $15 a month for this game which lacks content, which brings me to another complaint..

 

all of you who say there is plenty to do at 50 are speaking purely for yourself, as I am speaking purely for myself.... I have 2 lvl 50 conquerors in full augmented wh gear.... I have nothing to do in this game.... I prefer pvp and after you play the same wz's 1000 xs just to get the gear I have, you get bored.... The answer isnt lvl another alt, y? coz lvling an alt doesnt change the same 4 wz's Ive already done a qudbillion times.... I spend all that time to get that gear and have nothing to do with the gear coz Ive already done those wz's so many times- so 50 is end of game, oh unless you want to run the same fp's/ops just different intensity lvls.... Boring!!!!

 

I notice all you pvers always whine about pvp doesnt belong in an mmo blah blah, but us pvpers are always trying to make sure there is content for all of us..... Say what you will about SWG.... If you think swg was a crap game then this game is the sewer that swg ended up in.... swg was much more innovative than this game- an in depth crafting system, open worlds, player housing, meaning for pvp, alot of pvp content coupled with pve content.... Pvp and pve were not seperate entities, as well crafted items were better than looted/vendor items... The only thing swtor dominates on is story, which i liked alot, but in swg i didnt need a story, my story was made by me..

 

now i know u fanbois will jump and say just another bitter swg fan.... wrong again, im playing rift right now, which it too has the elements this game needs, owpvp, in depth crafting, purposeful pvp, at 50 the game starts... at 50 swtor ends...

 

to act like sandbox is bad or pvp is bad is just insane- some of the most successful games have these elements- in both mmos and console games- oblivion, skyrim, gta series, homefront, call of duty..... and the list goes on.... and the beauty of those games are i only have to pay $50 for the game....

 

SWTOR is a good game, just a bad mmo... in its current state it is nothing more than a console game that requires a sub fee.... everything in swtor i can do in a console game- like fable, i can play the game with my friends and actually change the enviroment, its open world.... in homefront or gears of war i can play the campaign with friends and then pvp in warzone style maps, no different except no sub fee....

 

and that is why i believe players said they didnt like sub model- not because they wouldnt pay for a game worth paying for but that this game isnt worth continuing to pay for after a certain point and as the sub numbers show at least 1 million people have already hit that point....

 

just my 2 cents, which with this community, which lacks any cohesion, means nothing....FLAME AWAY!!!!

[LordArtemis]

Sensible or not. people walked, and they didn't walk simply because the game had a sub. They walked because they had no reason to stay.

 

A pure themepark game can't hold casual players unless it has a massive population (like WoW)...for that matter neither can a pure sandbox game knock the doors down. A mixture of both is needed for today's market.

 

They could have probably thrived with a sub IMO if they had more sandbox features.

 

The game is unfinished, has clunky combat, lacks social features and has little to no repeatable sandboxy content. It was easy to see in Beta where this title was going.

[Karkais]

Ever play EVE? Ganking in that game is an art form, and there are plenty of consequences. Still plenty of ganking going on in that game, even with all the alliances and politics.

 

PVP in Eve is optional, you can choose not to undock

 

I'm not even going to start pointing out examples in this thread about how entitled PVPers feel about themselves... As funny as it would be.

 

There are some legit fears of what EA-lizing will do to SWTOR, but Bioware prolly couldn't have done SWTOR in the first place without EA's money, so the question is moot.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Karkais

[LordArtemis]

Anything publicly stated is going to be sweetened and whitewashed. After all, when your down 3 runs in the bottom of the ninth with one runner up and three on base you don't talk to the team about how badly the game is going.

 

Positive spin is a very important market tool.

 

I think the evidence is self evident. One only needs to look at the product and the actual numbers to see what is going on and why.

[AshenK]

Fact. EVE is gaining players.

 

Fact, GW2 is already looking like it's going to be a huge MMO.

 

Fact, SWTOR has lost most of it's player base and is somewhere around 200k and that number is going to drop in the next month.

 

The point is games like EVE and GW2 are what MMO's SHOULD be! SWG Pre-CU was what an MMO should be. At this point part of me wonders if we should even call TOR a game anymore as it's so easy and boring people get fed up with it and leave after a week. F2P is not going to help this wanna know why WoW clones like LoTRO and DDO have done well as F2P? They have a *gasp* game! They have content, they have content that makes you have to group with other players. EVE and GW2? PvP that has you teaming up with friends not clicking on a button so you can join a random pug group.

 

Do I hate TOR? Yes I do. This game could have been so much more and yet all BioWare did is try and copy WoW a game that set MMO's back 10 years and come out with a sub-par boring MMO that well it's clear that they don't care what happens to it now.

[devincor]

He then pointed out that changing business models was directly related to the desires of the player base stating, "We do exit interviews. When people say I'm churning out, I'm going to step away for a while, we ask them why. Forty percent of people said, I just don't want to pay $15 a month. I love the game, but I'm just not into the subscription business."

 

I don't believe the people leaving stated the red part, i think that is EA's mis-interpretation / bad analyst of the situation.

 

The problem is EA addressing a symptom (player/revenue loss) and not the disease (engaging content). The susbscription is not a big deal when you feel you are getting your money's worth. Only when you see no value in what you are paying for does it become an issue. So the worth of the game (content in both pvp and pve) is what needs to be addressed for these people to return and/or stay. I believe the people who left the game already were saying "I love the game, but it is not WORTH $15 a month subscription due to having finished the content for my playstyle."

 

I know after 8 months this is how my friends and family feel about SWTOR. I am trying to hang on to see what happens but even rats seem to know when to leave a sinking ship.

 

Know matter how you feel on the subject, the only way EA is going to listen or take notice is with your pocket book. If you like the game and happy... keep paying. If not, end the subscription and check back when it goes f2p.

[Deewe]

Forty percent of people said, I just don't want to pay $15 a month

Forgot to mention the most important part: people don't want to pay for an roughly polished single player game lacking most AAA MMO features.

 

F2P won't help that.

[Ricktur]

The problem is EA addressing a symptom (player/revenue loss) and not the disease (engaging content). The susbscription is not a big deal when you feel you are getting your money's worth. Only when you see no value in what you are paying for does it become an issue. So the worth of the game (content in both pvp and pve) is what needs to be addressed for these people to return and/or stay. I believe the people who left the game already were saying "I love the game, but it is not WORTH $15 a month subscription due to having finished the content for my playstyle."

 

you sir. . . speak THE TRUTH

 

EA needs to stop trying to handle this, they keep causing bad decisions to be made!

[LordArtemis]

It's probably cheaper and has more profit potential for them to go free to play at the moment instead of adding new content. The design of the game makes adding any real content in end game too expensive.

 

Of course they could simply add regular MMO features, finish the game so to speak, and add sandboxy content to hold casual players...

[BigfootNZ]

GW2 is not the messiah, far from it my friend, you are in the honeymoon phase, 3 months down the road, you will drop GW2 like a lot of ppl, in fact, its saving grace is the no sub fee.

 

Never said it was, I just find it a might sight better than what ive been paying to play the last 5 months. Id happily pay for TOR and play GW2... but everything thats happening at the mo with TOR just puts payed to that idea

 

Also anyone playing GW2 and not having a primary interest in PvP might be disappointed... it is after all PvP game first and a PvE game second.

 

Kinda like saying with EvE what if you dont want to play a Null Space Mega Corporation,Economic, Criminal Empire simulator... we'll yeah, your destined for disappointment (As was I when I just had to farm lvl 4 missions in my caldari fleet com BS hour after hour to make isk for my GTC's)

 

Knew i shouldn't have used the words fan boy (hate that word my self)... aint and never will be 'fanboi', but I am very excited through what experience of GW2 ive had so far (4 stress test). Compared to TORs current endgame after the last 8 months or so, its got an awe full lot more to do from the get go.

 

Dont get me wrong, I kinda like TOR, its got aspects to it that are endearing despite its flaws... its just poked me and others a few to many times in the ribs the last month or so.

 

As to the OP, i wouldnt trust a single word from the mouth of any one from EA's upper teir... im a man of principal, fair play and the like, even if I dont like the person im defending sometimes and everything ive seen them do and say over the decades disgusts me, and their just getting worse (for a small while they seemed to have learned their lesson and improved... didnt last long)... Bioware being assimilated into EA was my last 'benefit of the doubt', there wont be another.

Edited August 22, 2012 by BigfootNZ

[EStarfall]

I was told earlier in this thread "pvp was a minor part of this game(swtor)" and that it was "primarily a pve game with a little bit of pve thrown in". Ok well lets turn the tables. The game is called "Guild Wars". Think about that for a second. It's not called Dungeon Divers, or Dragon Slayers. There is your first clue that it is primarily a pvp game with a little bit of pve thrown in. If lack of pve endgame is on your list of worries, you might wanna look elsewhere.