The Counter Thread

[Darth_Philar]

Hello everyone,

 

I'd like to do some sampling on what people believe the current counters are with regard to class balance.

 

Please post your Advanced Class and Spec, what you believe you counter and who counters you.

 

This isn't a "debate" thread, so please resist the urge to "correct" people who hold a different opinion than you.

 

Once I've compiled some data with this thread I will open a Counter Debate Thread where we can rip each other apart

 

Thanks for your post!

[TheronFett]

Powertech > *

 

Marauder > *

 

Nerf Operatives

[SinnedWill]

Madness Sorc:

-Hard counters: Marauders/Sentinels (all specs), Immorta/Invincible and Rage/Focus Juggs/Guardians, DPS Ops/Scounds, and ALL tank specs (except Assassin/Shadow) .

-Soft counters (does well against, but typically loses): DPS specced PT/VG's, Sniper/Gunslinger (only if you can LoS), DPS Merc/Commano.

-Noteworthy remarks: best kiting class IMO - surprisingly good survivability if you avoid its weaknesses - worst class for killing a healer; however, it's one of the best classes for making a healer's life more difficult since they can spread their damage out among the healer's team.

-Countered by: focus fire (even if classes we hard counter), stun-locks, sniper/gunslinger, roots, and healers (particularly sorc/sage healers).

 

Carnage Marauder:

-Hard Counters - PT/VG tanks, ALL healers (ops/scounds present the biggest challenge, however), DPS assassins/shadows, Pyro/Assault PT/VG (though we can lose the dps race sometimes), Merc/Commando, and all non-cover using Turret-Mode dpsers.

-Soft Counters (usually wins, but takes more time/effort): Lightning/Telekinetic Sorc/Sage (bubble-mez... grr...), Sniper/Gunslinger (only if they're near a wall so that we can get knocked back into it while still in range of them and we need an early obfuscate on them before they begin pounding us), Tankassin/Shadow tank (coin-toss), Tank Jugg/Guardians (good ones take a long time, though we can beat them with ease once their cooldowns expire).

-Noteworhty remarks: Squishiest Marauder spec with the easiest offensive window to counter (due to its short duration), but it can shred almost anything if we're at full resolve. One of the best Root-Locking classes/specs in the game. Great single-target burst DPS.

-Countered By: Players of any class that know when/how to counter our offensive windows, AP/Tactics PT/VG, Sniper/Gunslinger, focus-fire (without defensive cooldowns), DoT's, stun-locks, roots/slows, and the absence of a pocket healer.

 

Deception Assassin:

-Hard-Counters: ALL healers, Sniper/Gunslinger, Sorc/Sage, ALL tanks.

-Soft-Counters: Heavy armor wearers, ALL classes if permitted to open up from stealth.

-Noteworthy Remarks: Squishiest class/spec in the game, slows/roots hinder it more than every other class/spec I've played. Has one of the BEST burst DPS cycles that aren't easily countered; Resource issues DO occur, but nowhere near as significantly as many claim.

-Countered By: DPS PT/VG, DPS Jugg/Guardian, Pyro/Assault Merc/Commando, Mara/Sent, hutt-ball fire pits, DoT's, slows/roots, force pool (during VERY LONG fights, only).

[Daiyukie]

Scrapper Scoundrel - Marauders counter me

 

I counter Snipers hard, but I win or lose a close fight against pretty much any other class that's played properly. Can't touch Sentinel/Mara though.

[jblazen]

As a sorc healer, my counter is sent/mara's.

 

If I'm not stunned, I'm rooted and cannot kite/LOS as I need to be able to to stay alive. My best chance is to put my slow on them and sprint away and hope their jump is on CD.

[Nocadoj]

Madness Sorc:

-Hard counters: Marauders/Sentinels (all specs), Immorta/Invincible and Rage/Focus Juggs/Guardians, DPS Ops/Scounds, and ALL tank specs (except Assassin/Shadow) .

-Soft counters (does well against, but typically loses): DPS specced PT/VG's, Sniper/Gunslinger (only if you can LoS), DPS Merc/Commano.

-Noteworthy remarks: best kiting class IMO - surprisingly good survivability if you avoid its weaknesses - worst class for killing a healer; however, it's one of the best classes for making a healer's life more difficult since they can spread their damage out among the healer's team.

 

I'd say being able to kill healers is making a healers life more difficult. PT/Marauder burst damage is what makes healers lives difficult because they will have none.

 

I think it is safe to say that Marauder is every classes counter, even the mighty PT.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Nocadoj

[MidichIorian]

Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage;

 

Prefer:

*Other sorcs/sages

*Commandos/mercs

*Snipers/gunslingers

*Unskilled warriors/knights of both types

 

Tolerable:

*Shadows/assassins -They never/rarely own me but it takes forever to take some of them down and I'm not a fan of wasting time on 1 vs1'es. Did I mention that I hate the stealth BS?

 

Hates:

*Vanguards/PT'es - Even the most unskilled person in the universe has a good chance of killing me unless I have most stuff off CD or can break (and keep) LoS.

*Operative/scoundrels - I hate the class, period, and would delete it from the game if I had the chance. I don't see what they are complaining about. They have powerful openers and can always just ditch if everything els fails. Not saying that I'm losing many of my 1 vs 1'es but I just can't stand them.

*Skilled warriors/knights - I foremost have a problem with skilled juggs for some reason. It's not like they will kill me in 2 secs but they get the occassional high crit in combination with seemingly taking no damage at all. Feels like hiting a wall. I much rather get owned fast by a mara and have it over with.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MidichIorian

[KBSIP]

Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage;

 

Prefer:

*Other sorcs/sages

*Commandos/mercs

*Snipers/gunslingers

*Unskilled warriors/knights of both types

 

Tolerable:

*Shadows/assassins -They never/rarely own me but it takes forever to take some of them down and I'm not a fan of wasting time on 1 vs1'es. Did I mention that I hate the stealth BS?

 

Hates:

*Vanguards/PT'es - Even the most unskilled person in the universe has a good chance of killing me unless I have most stuff off CD or can break (and keep) LoS.

*Operative/scoundrels - I hate the class, period, and would delete it from the game if I had the chance. I don't see what they are complaining about. They have powerful openers and can always just ditch if everything els fails. Not saying that I'm losing many of my 1 vs 1'es but I just can't stand them.

*Skilled warriors/knights - I foremost have a problem with skilled juggs for some reason. It's not like they will kill me in 2 secs but they get the occassional high crit in combination with seemingly taking no damage at all. Feels like hiting a wall. I much rather get owned fast by a mara and have it over with.

 

if you're losing to unskilled PT/Vang's as the king of kiting, its a L2P issue.

[mangarrage]

mm sniper- I would say I counter a mara and pt fairly well as long as I start first

sniper counter is definetly dps op, assassin, and a sorc who understands the concept of LoS

[MidichIorian]

if you're losing to unskilled PT/Vang's as the king of kiting, its a L2P issue.

L2R (R=read)

 

I'm talking about encounters in a wz, not 1 vs 1e's in the Den.

How do you kite with stuff, including force speed and slow, on CD? Or are you one of those how save all your CD'es for that one special moment? There's no room to save stuff when there are 4 PT'es and two maras on every enemy team.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Astarica]

:(L2R (R=read)

 

I'm taling about encounters in a wz, not 1 vs 1e's in the Den.

How do you kite with stuff, including force speed and slow, on CD? Or are you one of those how save all your CD'es for that one special moment? There's no room to save stuff when there are 4 PT'es and two maras on every enemy team.

 

It seems like some people never see the 'tag team' scenario, like say you've a Madness Sorc, you used all your kiting tools on one Marauder, then another Marauder saw you and jump into you and now you've absolutely nothing to deal with him, while the rooted Marauder just turns around and starts hitting the closest melee on your team. These two guys aren't working together but they sure neutralize your kiting abilities quite well, and since everyone sees Sorc as a free kill (this is probably correct) they usually won't need any communication anywhere. Grapple is another common tag team ability that involves no coordination.

[MidichIorian]

It seems like some people never see the 'tag team' scenario, like say you've a Madness Sorc, you used all your kiting tools on one Marauder, then another Marauder saw you and jump into you and now you've absolutely nothing to deal with him, while the rooted Marauder just turns around and starts hitting the closest melee on your team. These two guys aren't working together but they sure neutralize your kiting abilities quite well, and since everyone sees Sorc as a free kill (this is probably correct) they usually won't need any communication anywhere. Grapple is another common tag team ability that involves no coordination.

The "free kill" label is IMO worse than the class in itself. The class in itself is not that bad, it's just that we have to kite and fight first and all the time.

 

Hell, I'm, by looking at the post game stats and other classes, not even dying much. It's just that when I die it's always in seconds because I'm totally defensless. If people hade known that getting kited by us would actually hurt (if we had higher dot ticks or the ability to more or less always damage for 5K with project) they would have backed off a little and we would have had a chance to regen force and get things off CD a bit more often. Force is another problem, I constantly have things off CD but no force to use them. Not that easy to kite in that scenario either. I'm basically running around like a headless chicken.

[HurricaneXXIV]

The above situation is why it's a team game. One player shouldn't be able to constantly kite two players.

[Lymain]

Rage Jugg - Marksman Sniper

 

Immortal/Veng Jugg - Pyro Powertech

Edited July 27, 2012 by Lymain

[MidichIorian]

The above situation is why it's a team game. One player shouldn't be able to constantly kite two players.

True but it's the reality in many, most even, pug games. We're seemingly also low priority for healers.

 

One thing that has struck me is how low my objective points are on VS. It's the outcome of never beeing able to be close to the doors. As soon as I have range on the doors I'm attacked and forced to run around in the background. On the other side of the spectrum we have snipers. I'm in no way trying to nerf or call snipers OP but they can park infront of a door and get a lot of points.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MidichIorian

[SgtBranham]

 

Immortal/Veng Jugg - Pyro Powertech

 

I play a Vengeance Juggernaut i find the Main factor in the Pyro matchup is saber ward. If i have it and another defensive cooldown i generally seem to win. If i have enraged Defense and another cooldown its about even and if i get caught with only 1 cooldown its over for me. If you dont get in at least one leap then the odds really go down hill (unstoppable is that important).

[Lymain]

I play a Vengeance Juggernaut i find the Main factor in the Pyro matchup is saber ward. If i have it and another defensive cooldown i generally seem to win. If i have enraged Defense and another cooldown its about even and if i get caught with only 1 cooldown its over for me. If you dont get in at least one leap then the odds really go down hill (unstoppable is that important).

 

I'm talking the hybrid, tanky spec. I haven't played full Vengeance enough to really comment.

 

The hybrid will beat everything in a duel if you have all your cooldowns, but Pyro PTs ignore armor, can kite from 5-10m, and most importantly, get double CGC damage when they hit guarded targets.

[Paulman]

I'm talking the hybrid, tanky spec. I haven't played full Vengeance enough to really comment.

 

The hybrid will beat everything in a duel if you have all your cooldowns, but Pyro PTs ignore armor, can kite from 5-10m, and most importantly, get double CGC damage when they hit guarded targets.

 

Just shows how badly they designed the game, because that spec is supposed to be the hard counter to tanks. Instead it's the counter to everything else.

[Astarica]

Teamwork and tag team mechanisms are not the same.

 

Let's say a PT on your team decide it's time to reel in the latest victim. He picks somebody that looks easy to kill and grapples him into the middle of your 5 guys. Your 5 guys don't necessarily need to have any communication but it's obvious this new victim that suddenly found him surrounded by 5 guys is an easy kill. Unless that guy is a Marauder or a Tankasin he probably has no chance of escaping. That said, the 'victim' is not someone chosen at random. For one, a Tankasin or a Marauder would rarely be picked because you know they can escape from this kind of situation (Force Camo/Force Speed/other CDs). A sorc has a very high chance of being this 'victim' since they're easy to kill and could be a healer too.

 

Or take the common Marauder spec. Their charge has no minimum range, and while you shouldn't charge whenever it's up it's definitely not a good idea to not use your charge for extended time. So who do you charge? Usually a Sorc because the worst case is you get rooted or something but you still got your extra rage. And if the Sorc didn't get away you obviously just kill him. Your teammate can't help you out and the guys doing the charge aren't taking any risk because they have to build their rage anyway, so you just end up dead. Why does this happen? Because you're viewed as an easy kill so even if I'm not trying to kill you, I figure it's got to be pretty safe to charge into you instead of someone else who can fight back.