Sage/Sorc do you think you are underpowered?

[IHate]

Some interesting takes here. In general with this game the Sage/Sorc has some poor design that was overlooked when they had the extra heal and some more free casts with their dps rotation, but when those got tweeked some very sore spots were quite apparent. I quit playing my Sage healer all together because the healing was just better on a Scoundrel healer with half the gear...i'm talking mostly pvp experience only here.

 

Not only are the CC's fairly weak compared to other classes that have more dps or faster heals, their survivability in the middle of a tough WZ is non existent unless they are LOSing the whole time or the rest of their team has such superior DPS that their opponents can't even make it to the casters.

 

To me one of the largest problems I have yet to understand is the use of Light, Medium and Heavy armors in this game. Normally this distinction would be to give more armor for a class that has less dps or moves slower or some balancing as to why a Light armor class would choose such a thing. What do we have in this game to even out the different armor classes?

 

It might be minimal in some eyes, but if you factor in that some of the other classes actual can have equal dps with tank specs or a lot more spike damage and ways to cover the field faster then you really are gimping yourself with less protection.

[PloGreen]

^^ True story. People have a huge misconception about sorc/sage resource management due to having the largest resource pool and flat-rate regeneration on it. These people don't play balance/madness specs in pvp (in pve it is more easily managable). The force cost on all of our abilities is significantly higher than our force regeneration. Madness/Balance specs should be down to ~5% after about 40 seconds in pvp (at this point, all we have left is force lightning/tkt spam and a we pray that it doesn't ever get interrupted, since this is our only feasible method of regaining some force without sitting there with our thumbs up our butts until we can use our real abilities again). Force lightning/TKT's damage is similar (if not lesser) to that of other class's auto-attack damage and yes, it does apply the annoying slow effect, but it can be interrupted (robbing us of its damage, slow effect, and the 1% force regen per damage tick).

 

To be honest I agree. Which is why i spec hybrid tele/balance. Lower dot damage but better force managment, bubble stun, lower cooldown on force speed. Also picked up 2 set heal bonus for 17 second shield. More support than flat out dps but better survivability in my opinion.

[islander]

oh yeah, the 3 second CD bonus on bubbles is huge, especially if you are a hybrid healer like I am. The majority of my healing total is probably bubbles, because it afford me the most time to help DPSers do their actual job in PUGs. Edited July 25, 2012 by islander

[Monterone]

To me one of the largest problems I have yet to understand is the use of Light, Medium and Heavy armors in this game. Normally this distinction would be to give more armor for a class that has less dps or moves slower or some balancing as to why a Light armor class would choose such a thing. What do we have in this game to even out the different armor classes?

 

Agreed, this is one of the strangest things about this game.

 

They say they want every class to do a similar amount of dps, except snipers and maras who are supposed to do 5% more since they are dps classes only.

 

So they, supposedly, balance the dps according to metrics but then give different types of armor to classes all doing the same damage, and some get defensive cooldowns while light armor casters DON'T? What genius thought this was a good idea, and please tell me he doesn't work at BW any longer.

 

You want sages to wear light armor and have no defensive cooldowns, fine -- but make us do 15% more damage than a pyro or a mara, they have good cooldowns and better armor. This is only logical, no?

[Monterone]

[quote=Teambo;4908329

Quote 1: ]As a Balance Sage, if you are not OOF all the time, you're doing it wrong. Balance Sages have huge force problems when they have a lot of uptime.

 

Quote 2: This. Whenever i'm not getting focused for a while, i'll run OOF and then i'd rather die quickly and come back in most situations than try either to wait for my force to come back or use noble sacrifice (lol). When OOF, my damage output is so low that i'm just a dead weight. Of course this is given I can see my teammates can do without me for a few seconds, and that I cannot meditate to regen.

 

Balance/Madness has horrible force management which only compounds the issues sages/sorcs already have. After having played full madness for quite a long time, both in PvP and raids I finally made a switch to a madness/lightning hybrid. I did this due to added survivability it gives me when focused but also to help remove the madness tree force issues.

 

I can now say that I can cast as long as I want to and there is no point where I feel like I need to die and re-spawn, in order to keep playing. Btw, how can any dev think that's a good mechanic for Madness sorcs; that a few times per match you need to die in order to get the force back to play?

 

Anyways, here's my newest spec that you should try for fun and for the force management sorcs are supposed to have. You won't have a 2 sec root for Huttball and the 30% extra crit multiplier on DF, but the other benefits far outweight the losses -- mainly, your dps will be higher since you can just cast whatever you want, whenever you want and bubble your allies without worrying about force while you dps.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201RZfc0rbMrZcMcRsMz.2

 

Put all 3 points into crit chance if you are on a team and have a healer.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Monterone

[MidichIorian]

Doesnt that build require that you stand still a lot? The main problem right now is that we have to move at all times and when move we also blow a lot of force on expensive abilties. Perhaps I'm not getting it but I just don't see how that build will save a lot of force unless you also completely change the way you play, which there isnt much room for right now. Edited July 25, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Monterone]

Doesnt that build require that you stand still a lot? The main problem right now is that we have to move at all times and when move we also blow a lot of force on expensive abilties. Perhaps I'm not getting it but I just don't see how that build will save a lot of force unless you also completely change the way you play, which there isnt much room for right now.

 

Not at all, I'm moving all the time... the only thing you channel is FL/TT and even that will be a fast cast a lot of the time. CD with Wrath, Shock whenever up, Affliction, Lightning Strike with Wrath when you need to finish someone off and Shock is down -- all instants. A shock will cost you 21 force most of the time, even Force Storm is only 42 force, it's amazing. Bubble is 32.5 force, corruption healer's is 35.

 

The spec gives the same mobility Madness does, as you play it just like madness, minus the root but plus the AoE mezz and root, 20 sec speed etc...

 

I couldn't like this spec more and I played full madness for the past 8 out of 12 months.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Monterone

[Monterone]

Doesnt that build require that you stand still a lot? The main problem right now is that we have to move at all times and when move we also blow a lot of force on expensive abilties. Perhaps I'm not getting it but I just don't see how that build will save a lot of force unless you also completely change the way you play, which there isnt much room for right now.

 

I wanted to edit my post and explain how force regen is better but I'll just add this one.

 

In the hybrid spec I posted above, there are two talents that help your force regen:

 

1. Sith Efficacy from Madness

2. Lightning Effusion from Lightning

 

With the additional 100 force from Lightning and the -9% force costs your Force Lightning already regenerates more force per tick than it would have without it. Each tick of FL can also trigger Lightning Effusion, which makes the next two spells half cost.

 

Any force attack crit triggers Lightning Effusion, even Force Storm... so you can cast Force Storm on a group and at least once it will crit on one person, that renews your two stacks of half force cost.

 

Not to mention, 20 second Force Sprint from Lightning Effusion makes it one of the best talents a sorc can pick.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Monterone

[vimm]

Operative/Scoundrel healer is overpowered..if anyone was wondering.

[MidichIorian]

I wanted to edit my post and explain how force regen is better but I'll just add this one.

 

In the hybrid spec I posted above, there are two talents that help your force regen:

 

1. Sith Efficacy from Madness

2. Lightning Effusion from Lightning

 

With the additional 100 force from Lightning and the -9% force costs your Force Lightning already regenerates more force per tick than it would have without it. Each tick of FL can also trigger Lightning Effusion, which makes the next two spells half cost.

 

Any force attack crit triggers Lightning Effusion, even Force Storm... so you can cast Force Storm on a group and at least once it will crit on one person, that renews your two stacks of half force cost.

 

Not to mention, 20 second Force Sprint from Lightning Effusion makes it one of the best talents a sorc can pick.

The reason to why i didn't understand your train of thought is because the only difference between your build and the standard hybrid build, force ecenomy'wise, is Lightning Effusion and you, IMO waste a lot of points to get there. It's a great ability, not denying that but having to go up to tier four in the lightning tree just isnt worth it (again, IMO).

 

I'm also very sceptical about your use of force storm. It's a great pve mob ability but IMO worthless in PvP unless you have to interrupt 2 or more enemies at a node.

 

And lastly, nerf operatives.

Edited July 25, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Monterone]

The reason to why i didn't understand your train of thought is because the only difference between your build and the standard hybrid build, force ecenomy'wise, is Lightning Effusion and you, IMO waste a lot of points to get there. It's a great ability, not denying that but having to go up to tier four in the lightning tree just isnt worth it (again, IMO).

 

I'm also very sceptical about your use of force storm. It's a great pve mob ability but IMO worthless in PvP unless you have to interrupt 2 or more enemies at a node.

 

And lastly, nerf operatives.

 

Exactly, I don't use FS for any other reason but that was to illustrate the mechanism.

 

I looked back over the lightning tree one more time before I responded, but every single point on the way up to Effusion is very useful, nothing goes to waste.

 

Who knows, bud, we could just have different playstyles so it may not make sense... respeccing is cheap though, give it a whirl for a couple of days, I guarantee you, your force management woes will be gone -- in fact you won't even look at your force bar during the entire warzone.

[Paulman]

I don't see the point in bringing a dps sorc over any other dps class. They have no burst and are easily shut down in group environments. Interrupt force lightning and cleanse eliminates the vast majority of thier damage. Not to mentition killing them is relatively easier compared to other dps classes. I usually play heals on my sage and I do enjoy that.

[Pistols]

I don't see the point in bringing a dps sorc over any other dps class.

 

A good player can make it work easily enough; problem is most who play this class stand still casting 99% of the time and wonder why they die so fast.

[Monterone]

I don't see the point in bringing a dps sorc over any other dps class. They have no burst and are easily shut down in group environments. Interrupt force lightning and cleanse eliminates the vast majority of thier damage. Not to mentition killing them is relatively easier compared to other dps classes. I usually play heals on my sage and I do enjoy that.

 

It's a challenge, and some of us just like a challenge of making a weaker class work.

 

Also, there is no fear of a nerf. It can only look brighter from here on.

[SinnedWill]

I don't see the point in bringing a dps sorc over any other dps class. They have no burst and are easily shut down in group environments. Interrupt force lightning and cleanse eliminates the vast majority of thier damage. Not to mentition killing them is relatively easier compared to other dps classes. I usually play heals on my sage and I do enjoy that.

 

Sorcerers aren't gunna' solo kill any healers unless that healer makes a BIG mistake and the sorcerer has recklessness ready. Yes, our DoT's have very long durations (sad thing is our long duration DoT's are usually weaker than other classes' short-duration DoT's) - the fact that they have such long durations causes their damage values each tick to be HORRIBLE (200's non-crit and ~600's for crits as full WH gear vs. full WH gear) - these DoT damage values were sub-par but tolerable before 1.3 came out - now, everyone can fully augment everything and maximum HP has gone up significantly and unfortunately, the ability damage modifier for sorcerer DoT's is so poor that even with full power augments, it doesn't bridge the gap between (dot ticks are dealing significantly smaller %'s of enemy's health in damage). Shock, force lightning, crushing darkness, and death field are all scaling decently, but the DoT's are really lacking.

[warultima]

I had my combustible gas cylinder crits for over 1k now (almost full BM 2 pieces recruits left and 2 champion relics).

Id like to see sorc dots critting near 1k in full WH auggmented gear like what I can do on my BM/Recruit mixed pyrotech. I dont even mention my railshot is consistently breaking 4k now.

Edited July 25, 2012 by warultima

[Dioforce]

Sorcs are fine as long as you try harder and are better geared than anyone you expect to beat.

[Smeac]

Sorc/Sage is underpowered if you consider that no other class needs a peel to DPS. Healing will always require a peel, but to DPS? That's just poor design.

 

Fact is, we are supposed to be casters, but in order to cast one must stand still. Standing still means death 100% of the time if you are being targeted. It's a Catch-22.

 

To me as a Sage this would be the best thing to be able to do. Cast spells without stopping. Of course I understand some spells such as Salvation the player needs to be stationary.

[warultima]

Sorcs are fine as long as you try harder and are better geared than anyone you expect to beat.

 

I can tell you I have zero issue facerolling full recruit vanguards on my full WH BiS'ed Augged Dps sorc.

[Evil_Santa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PGLC-707eI

 

We're totally underpowered

 

Yes we're super-squishy, and yes we could do with a little bit of love to our dots, but in capable hands - the class can be huge help to a wz team.

 

My fav. is murdering a Jugg at 9:40 in ~ 10 seconds.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Evil_Santa

[Pathlight-]

Sages/Sorcs are very strong in a group environment (as support) and can play a decisive role as harassers/saboteurs. However, their effectiveness falls very low in 1v1 environments.

[babykahna]

hybrid sorcs are in demand. those who can dps and throw bubbles constantly can definitely be of great use to their teams. even sorc healers are still very good in pvp if they have a guard on them. I've seen many top healers being sorcs as long as they can stay alive.

[Siorac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PGLC-707eI

 

We're totally underpowered

 

Yes we're super-squishy, and yes we could do with a little bit of love to our dots, but in capable hands - the class can be huge help to a wz team.

 

My fav. is murdering a Jugg at 9:40 in ~ 10 seconds.

 

While killing a Focus Guardian - probably the squishiest melee class ever invented - isn't exactly a big deal, the speed with which he destroyed him shows how exaggerated the "Sorcerers have no burst" claims are.

[Roiz]

Sages/Sorcs are very strong in a group environment (as support) and can play a decisive role as harassers/saboteurs. However, their effectiveness falls very low in 1v1 environments.

 

Mouses are very strong against cats. Whilst one mouse can attract the cat attention hiding in the hole and make noisy sounds another mouse can steal a cheese.

[Steele_dk]

It is very simple why sorcs is every dps' first target now:

 

corruption spec suffer from long easy interuptable casts to heal (thx to 1.2 changes)

 

lighting spec suffer from low damage (lighting strike lol) and a long and easy interuptable cast 31 talent

 

madness spec suffer from low and slow damage build up from dots and force problems

 

the class itself suffers greatly from having no defensive cooldowns and light armor.

 

and our kite solution is itself a down right nulfication of our spec (except madness which is pretty mobile cept for 1 spell) because we cant cast our main spells on the run. Not to mention every class has a slow or way of preventing kiting aswell with pulls, leaps and stuns.

 

I have a dps alt my self, heck even i go for sorcs first. Only if the sorc is a lighting hybrid he can delay his death a few moments but the fact of the matter remain, everyone goes on sorcs first because of the above.

 

Bioware need to give sorcs some love. Starting with survivability.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Steele_dk